Ninebot One Z : Z6-Z8-Z10

[palachzzz]

It seems it is ok to charge with 6a, battery was 35C at the end of charge,  it's less then after my usual riding (37-38C), at 5C outdor)

Edited November 6, 2018 by palachzzz

[RoberAce]

Hace 2 horas, palachzzz dijo:

Parece que está bien cargar con 6a, la batería estaba a 35C al final de la carga, es menos después de mi uso habitual (37-38C), a 5C outdor

What is needed to charge with 6A?

[palachzzz]

2 hours ago, RoberAce said:

What is needed to charge with 6A?

Charger which can provide it, and charger connector which fits to Z. (I cut from stock charger)

[RoberAce]

1 hour ago, palachzzz said:

Charger which can provide it, and charger connector which fits to Z. (I cut from stock charger)

could you please link a sample model?

[Lukasz]

36 minutes ago, RoberAce said:

could you please link a sample model?

Simplest solution - just use 2 pcs of the original NB charger - see here:

More advanced - preparation in progress (5-6A compact charger)

Edited November 6, 2018 by Lukasz

[RoberAce]

29 minutes ago, Lukasz said:

Simplest solution - just use 2 pcs of the original NB charger - see here:

More advanced - preparation in progress (5-6A compact charger)

 Thanks Lukasz

[palachzzz]

@RoberAce, some our guys use charger from this link:
https://m.aliexpress.com/item/32840616776.html?tt=sns_none&aff_platform=default&cpt=1541687005327&sk=oQrZVEK&aff_trace_key=ecfc561d508a4309abe3cff4c91e5c95-1541687005327-07557-oQrZVEK&terminal_id=12fb712030004b3684b210151e553942

[RoberAce]

3 minutes ago, palachzzz said:

@RoberAce, some our guys use charger from this link:
https://m.aliexpress.com/item/32840616776.html?tt=sns_none&aff_platform=default&cpt=1541687005327&sk=oQrZVEK&aff_trace_key=ecfc561d508a4309abe3cff4c91e5c95-1541687005327-07557-oQrZVEK&terminal_id=12fb712030004b3684b210151e553942

it looks really good , but yesterday I ordered one original Ninebot Z10 charger, and Charge Doctor too. Wth that charger that you suggest maybe it would be everything easier 

[Kva]

Two original chargers give fan free solution. That is sometimes important if you want silent charge during a sleep.

[Borg666]

6 hours ago, palachzzz said:

@RoberAce, some our guys use charger from this link:
https://m.aliexpress.com/item/32840616776.html

For my KS-16S (67.2v) I bought this 5A fast charger, which is working with no issues so far:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-Quality-Electric-Bicycle-Scooter-Motorcycle-Charger-16S-60V-67-2V-CV-5Amp-Li-ion-LiPoly/1960214540.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.27424c4dIjjq8O

...which was a recommendation from here:

 

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by Borg666

[Nic]

You people do realise that slow charging is safer and doesn't shorten the life of your batteries.  Just saying...

[FreeRide]

1 hour ago, Nic said:

You people do realise that slow charging is safer and doesn't shorten the life of your batteries.  Just saying...

You do realize that that is not exactly true? Just sayin’  Do a google search and you will see that slow charging Li-Ion cells has been shown to reduce cell life. This has led to the the more recent high pulse charge cycle, which has shown to dramatically speed charging without putting harmfull stress on the cells. Very few consumer chargers use this new approach though. 

“For the last 10 or 20 years, we’ve always been told to charge as slowly as possible, to trickle charge, so that heat is reduced in the battery and it lasts longer,” said Chueh. “What we found in this paper is, that’s not entirely correct.”

There are now, other approachs that change the chemestry slighty to take advantage of fast charging.  It's not so cut and dry when dealing with chemical reactions. 

Edited November 9, 2018 by FreeRide

[FreeRide]

1 hour ago, Nic said:

You people do realise that slow charging is safer and doesn't shorten the life of your batteries.  Just saying...

Oh and 5A charge into some of these big packs is actually considered a pretty slow charge. And the manufacture's 1.5 and 2A chargers into some 6p and 8p packs borders on bad for some Li chemestries. 

Edited November 9, 2018 by FreeRide

[palachzzz]

As we know, there are some legal restrictions in China regarding <100V power supply, it should be limited to 2A or less. Thats why every EUC is delivered with such 1.5-2A charger. In terms of Z10 battery pack normal charge current is 9.3Amps, fast charge - 18.6 Amps. I tried to charge with 12Amps, but Z10 SmartBMS doesn't allow such current and swithes off charge port in 1 sec of such charging. I'm going to investigate what max current is accessible for Z10 SmartBMS, but I need to make some mod of my charger before.
Just want to say - I know what I'm doing, so don’t write me that this is dangerous 

[Nic]

3 hours ago, palachzzz said:

Just want to say - I know what I'm doing, so don’t write me that this is dangerous 

We won't write ... but if we don't hear from you again we will know why. 

I take it the BMS components can handle the high charging currents as they can for discharge.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Nic

[Nic]

10 hours ago, FreeRide said:

Oh and 5A charge into some of these big packs is actually considered a pretty slow charge. And the manufacture's 1.5 and 2A chargers into some 6p and 8p packs borders on bad for some Li chemestries. 

Good to know. Here's what I found...

https://batterybro.com/products/lg-mh1-inr18650mh1-3200mah-10a

LG specify max 3.1A charging current for their MH1 cells, so 2p configuration would give max 6.2A from charger. That's max ... they specify standard charge as 1.55A, so 2p would be 3.1A from charger. Its probably best to stick to standard charge, particularly as the cells age and their internal resistance increases.

2p (3A STD, 6A MAX)

3p (4.5A STD, 9A MAX)

4p (6A STD, 12A MAX)

5p (7.5A STD, 15A MAX)

6p (9A STD, 18A MAX)

 

Edited November 9, 2018 by Nic

[Nic]

10 hours ago, FreeRide said:

You do realize that that is not exactly true? Just sayin’  Do a google search and you will see that slow charging Li-Ion cells has been shown to reduce cell life. This has led to the the more recent high pulse charge cycle, which has shown to dramatically speed charging without putting harmfull stress on the cells. Very few consumer chargers use this new approach though. 

“For the last 10 or 20 years, we’ve always been told to charge as slowly as possible, to trickle charge, so that heat is reduced in the battery and it lasts longer,” said Chueh. “What we found in this paper is, that’s not entirely correct.”

There are now, other approachs that change the chemestry slighty to take advantage of fast charging.  It's not so cut and dry when dealing with chemical reactions. 

Good info ... so as a general rule fast charging is bad ... but there as cases where that rule isn't quite correct. That's good to know ... now we just need to wait for tech to catch up so we can fast charge with new battery chemistries and chargers.

[FreeRide]

8 hours ago, Nic said:

Good info ... so as a general rule fast charging is bad ... but there as cases where that rule isn't quite correct. That's good to know ... now we just need to wait for tech to catch up so we can fast charge with new battery chemistries and chargers.

One problem is terminology since a term like, 'fast charge' does not really mean anything when the average person says it, they typically mean something faster than the stock charger.  With EUC's the stock chargers don't even rate 'standard' charge most of the time for the cells that are used.  The manufacture is not going to say though 'includes free slow charger' like they should be saying.  

The next problem is there are many variations on Li-Ion battery chemistry, but most comments are generic like it applies to all.  Or information from Polymer batteries is used in reference to the cylindrical cells, or vice-versa.  With batteries and chargers it's good to try to be more specific most of the time, but there are some general properties that can be discussed, but once the details 'numbers' start flying, best to get the specifics of the cell, or in comparison to some wheel known cell.

The electric car companies are doing interesting things with chargers, and lifecycle management.

Edited November 9, 2018 by FreeRide

[RoberAce]

 

[RoberAce]

 

[mrelwood]

For most wheels the common GX16 -charging connector is what limits the usable charging current. If anyone is surpassing 5A charging, better check the specs on what the charge port can handle on the Z10.

 

[RoberAce]

 

[RoberAce]

 

[palachzzz]

On 11/9/2018 at 2:31 PM, Nic said:

We won't write ... but if we don't hear from you again we will know why. 

I take it the BMS components can handle the high charging currents as they can for discharge.

I returned
The charging and discharging current passes through different FETs and different circuits.
I tested the maximum charge current, it is 9A for Z10 and this is just the normal charge current for our elements according to the datasheet.
9A is ok, but not more - bms turns off the charging port if the current is more than 9A for one second. I tried 9A for a 1 hour - no problem, but charging port has become warm, at 6A - almost no heating.

 

[RoberAce]

4 minutes ago, palachzzz said:

Regresé La corriente de carga y descarga pasa a través de diferentes FET y diferentes circuitos. Probé la corriente de carga máxima, es 9A para Z10 y esta es solo la corriente de carga normal para nuestros elementos según la hoja de datos. 9A está bien, pero no más: bms apaga el puerto de carga si la corriente es superior a 9A durante un segundo. Probé con 9A durante 1 hora, no hay problema, pero el puerto de carga se ha calentado, a 6 A, casi sin calefacción.

 

 

very good information. Thanks