Leaperkim Lynx 2700wh: 151V, 20" tire, suspension, 89lb

[Rawnei]

Rode more with the 244 today, it's growing on me, knobs getting slightly worn and rounded taking off some of that pronounced knobby feeling and becoming more smooth which is good, did some offroad in wet environment, some slight mud, wet rocks, roots, felt very good, predictable and stable.

[WheelGoodTime]

At long last, I conducted my review of the Lynx.

 

[Mike Sacristan]

Leaperkim already gives us a rough % approximation. 8 bars = 12.5% per bar.
However... I set Darknessbot to 4.2V as 100% and 3.3V as 0% and discharge curve = ON. Then I can see % for decent performance.
I am a bit more gentle at 130V and below though so I won't go crazy pushing to 45mph.

Every time I turn my wheel on I set it to show voltage on the display. This way I am a glance away from checking my voltage and voltage sag while riding.
If I am at 135V then I am at 50%of the meaning voltage. At that voltage I know I can hit 75kmh (wheel reported) and beeps. Which means I will think twice about trying to smoke an EXN rider. Even though there are only 2 bars missing on the display... so that would be ~62.5 to 75% in Leaperkim match.

Speed follows the performance curve down to 3.4V. After that things go downhill very fast. 

150V = 100% (actually 151.2) 
140V = 66%
130V = 33%
120V = 0% (actually 118.8)

That's how I roll. 
All volts are not equal.

[Rawnei]

46 minutes ago, WheelGoodTime said:

At long last, I conducted my review of the Lynx.

 

I'm watching the video now, those freespin values are not accurate, where did you get them from? With HS mode on it freespins around 132kmh, speed correction vs GPS is about -5%.

Edit: Also braking is not something the wheel is doing that is all you.

Edited April 28 by Rawnei

[Mike Sacristan]

22 hours ago, Rawnei said:

Rode more with the 244 today, it's growing on me, knobs getting slightly worn and rounded taking off some of that pronounced knobby feeling and becoming more smooth which is good, did some offroad in wet environment, some slight mud, wet rocks, roots, felt very good, predictable and stable.

Yes indeed. Your Shinko 244 vs Kenda K262:
Shinko is better in mud, better on wet roots, more nimble when doing slow speed turning. It's also a bit wider. Maybe even a bit taller. We can check!
I won't be trying your Lynx at 50mph any time soon though so I can't comment on that vs the Kenda.  

Shinko is a bit more nervous at high PSI because of the pointier profile. Still the tire is brand new so I am sure that will even out after a few hundred miles.

[WheelGoodTime]

1 hour ago, Rawnei said:

I'm watching the video now, those freespin values are not accurate, where did you get them from? With HS mode on it freespins around 132kmh, speed correction vs GPS is about -5%.

Edit: Also braking is not something the wheel is doing that is all you.

Thanks for the clarification about the speed 🙂 I should double check because now I'm second guessing myself. But on "regular" non-HS mode, it was cutting out at 125 kmh/62 mph freespin for me about a week ago. 🤔

 

Btw, you really havent noticed that some wheels brake much easier than others?

[Rawnei]

23 minutes ago, WheelGoodTime said:

Thanks for the clarification about the speed 🙂 I should double check because now I'm second guessing myself. But on "regular" non-HS mode, it was cutting out at 125 kmh/62 mph freespin for me about a week ago. 🤔

 

Btw, you really havent noticed that some wheels brake much easier than others?

Braking and acceleration is all about leaning, all the wheel does is just responding to rider input by keeping balance and keeping the rider upright, maybe the pads, foot height, balance of the wheel etc just clicked so well for you on the Lynx that it allowed you to lean harder and thus braking felt stronger?

Edited April 28 by Rawnei

[Cyberwolf]

On 4/26/2024 at 2:28 PM, Rawnei said:

 

• When turning it feels like a hybrid between knobby and street tire, it wants to stay upright rather than fall like the Kenda 262, CST-186 or the S22 Julier tire, I'm not used to it but I can get used to it and it does have an advantage when taking curves at higher speed. It felt very stable when doing tight turns at slower speeds.
• I noticed some tramlining and other different behaviors that I can not put my finger on yet and which I am not used to, I will have to experiment more with that and get used to it before making conclusions, it's something I will have to keep in mind when off-roading and it might not match my muscle-memory.

Other things I did with my Lynx today:

Switched the oil seals in the shocks to SKF Showa 37mm, same as I did on my Sherman S and Patton and filled with new fresh 5W fork oil, without exaggerating this is an S tier upgrade for me, due to the minimal friction on the SKF seals the suspension becomes noticeably more smoother and they should last longer too.

 

1 hour ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Shinko is a bit more nervous at high PSI because of the pointier profile. Still the tire is brand new so I am sure that will even out after a few hundred miles.

So, for y'all that are running the 244 - how much of a difference does that "stability" make when it comes to being able to make rapid semi-sharp turns at high speed?  (e.g. - like the kind of "S" curves you might see on a tight race track...) 

Will that tire still let you drop a side almost to the point of scraping pedals without losing control?

Of my two experiences with unplanned low-altitude flight (i.e. - wheel coming to an instantaneous 'full stop' -not just cutout-  underneath me at >25mph), the first was the result of being unable to turn fast enough due to the original knobby on my Patton being worn on the middle and thus way too 'stable', holding itself upright and not letting me drop into a tight turn as I had done previously and at just slightly lower speed...

I've been waiting for the weather to not suck to pull the stock knobby off (related: pretty sure the original tube is twisted near the valve-stem and cannot move tire independently of tube even when fully deflated, which is why I have been unable to center and believe everything needs to come off to fix it), and figure now is a good time to mount a new 241 or 244. 

Also figured that while I'm at it, will also change the seals/oil, and have those ready to go (waited until >3k miles to do that on my Patton, and in hindsight should have done it closer to 300 miles!)

[omuretsu]

3 hours ago, Rawnei said:

Braking and acceleration is all about leaning, all the wheel does is just responding to rider input by keeping balance and keeping the rider upright, maybe the pads, foot height, balance of the wheel etc just clicked so well for you on the Lynx that it allowed you to lean harder and thus braking felt stronger?

Different wheels do still respond slightly differently to the same rider movements, for at least two reasons:

1. Device weight. A heavier wheel will need to apply less deceleration in order to counteract a given rider braking position. This can't really be "the reason" why the lynx is good at braking, since it's heavier than a lot of wheels, but it is lighter than most wheels of the same height. Up to a certain point, height helps the rider achieve a more extreme braking position since the rider can be supported further up by the chassis or pads.

2. "Pedal hardness." I put that in quotes because even at 100% hard mode, the Lynx does have a noticeable tilt difference between deceleration and acceleration / riding at speed. By tilting back slightly while braking, if the rider does not react to this tilt by backing out of their position, the position becomes a more extreme torque on the wheel and requires a stronger deceleration to keep the system balanced.

----

Totally separate topic, but that tilt difference between deceleration and acceleration/riding at speed is significant enough to be a problem when using the Cyclope Halo light for night riding (even at 100% pedal hardness). That light basically has zones that are either fully lit or totally unlit, with no brightness gradient between. Because of this, if the lit zone is in a car's rear mirror, it's blindingly bright for the car.

When accelerating or riding at speed, it tilts the light downward, causing an effective loss in light range. When braking, it tilts the light upward. The difference between these two tilt angles is large enough that I either have to blind traffic whenever I am braking, or I have to have the light pointed down far enough that it's not safe to ride at speed without the high beams activated. I would not recommend getting that light or any other similar light where the edges of the light at at full brightness, at least for people who ride on roads frequently at night (I commute daily and work a 3rd shift).

Edited April 28 by omuretsu

[WheelGoodTime]

39 minutes ago, omuretsu said:

Different wheels do still respond slightly differently to the same rider movements, for at least two reasons:

1. Device weight. A heavier wheel will need to apply less deceleration in order to counteract a given rider braking position. This can't really be "the reason" why the lynx is good at braking, since it's heavier than a lot of wheels, but it is lighter than most wheels of the same height. Up to a certain point, height helps the rider achieve a more extreme braking position since the rider can be supported further up by the chassis or pads.

2. "Pedal hardness." I put that in quotes because even at 100% hard mode, the Lynx does have a noticeable tilt difference between deceleration and acceleration / riding at speed. By tilting back slightly while braking, if the rider does not react to this tilt by backing out of their position, the position becomes a more extreme torque on the wheel and requires a stronger deceleration to keep the system balanced.

----

Totally separate topic, but that tilt difference between deceleration and acceleration/riding at speed is significant enough to be a problem when using the Cyclope Halo light for night riding (even at 100% pedal hardness). That light basically has zones that are either fully lit or totally unlit, with no brightness gradient between. Because of this, if the lit zone is in a car's rear mirror, it's blindingly bright for the car.

When accelerating or riding at speed, it tilts the light downward, causing an effective loss in light range. When braking, it tilts the light upward. The difference between these two tilt angles is large enough that I either have to blind traffic whenever I am braking, or I have to have the light pointed down far enough that it's not safe to ride at speed without the high beams activated. I would not recommend getting that light or any other similar light where the edges of the light at at full brightness, at least for people who ride on roads frequently at night (I commute daily and work a 3rd shift).

that's a great point about the cyclope. People have also complained about that with the V14, since it has a "hard line" above which there is no light emanated, and when accelerating fast, you are flying into the dark. I have thought about it for a while - EUCs need to get a gyroscopically stabilized headlight to mitigate this. I like to ride with 0% pedal hardness (softer the better!) and so this really affects my riding at night. I messaged Bob Yan about hopefully making this a reality, but unfortunately since Pidzoom is an "all PEV" accessories company, the market reach on a gyro-stabilized headlight would be limited. It'd essentially only be usable for LK wheels, which means the return on investment may not actually materialize. Hopefully we see something like this in the future for new EUC releases.

[mtl]

2 hours ago, WheelGoodTime said:

that's a great point about the cyclope. People have also complained about that with the V14, since it has a "hard line" above which there is no light emanated, and when accelerating fast, you are flying into the dark. I have thought about it for a while - EUCs need to get a gyroscopically stabilized headlight to mitigate this. I like to ride with 0% pedal hardness (softer the better!) and so this really affects my riding at night. I messaged Bob Yan about hopefully making this a reality, but unfortunately since Pidzoom is an "all PEV" accessories company, the market reach on a gyro-stabilized headlight would be limited. It'd essentially only be usable for LK wheels, which means the return on investment may not actually materialize. Hopefully we see something like this in the future for new EUC releases.

It would also be good if the headlight could adjust up or down based on the grade of the road in front of you. I don't know how best to achieve this. Maybe using something like the rear lasers of the Sherman S, but pointed forward and further out. A camera could then pick up the beam projection and then adjust the headlight based on its length and shape. Maybe this could work for straight, forward motion but it gets more complex when considering turns. Perhaps LIDAR could also be used?

[joyrider]

5 minutes ago, mtl said:

It would also be good if the headlight could adjust up or down based on the grade of the road in front of you. I don't know how best to achieve this. Maybe using something like the rear lasers of the Sherman S, but pointed forward and further out. A camera could then pick up the beam projection and then adjust the headlight based on its length and shape. Maybe this could work for straight, forward motion but it gets more complex when considering turns. Perhaps LIDAR could also be used?

Make it move left and right to follow the wheel too please.

 

[Tomallo]

7 hours ago, WheelGoodTime said:

that's a great point about the cyclope. People have also complained about that with the V14, since it has a "hard line" above which there is no light emanated, and when accelerating fast, you are flying into the dark. I have thought about it for a while - EUCs need to get a gyroscopically stabilized headlight to mitigate this. I like to ride with 0% pedal hardness (softer the better!) and so this really affects my riding at night. I messaged Bob Yan about hopefully making this a reality, but unfortunately since Pidzoom is an "all PEV" accessories company, the market reach on a gyro-stabilized headlight would be limited. It'd essentially only be usable for LK wheels, which means the return on investment may not actually materialize. Hopefully we see something like this in the future for new EUC releases.

I like the idea... might try to make a diy solution in the future as I'm into flashlights and a little into optics too, will post build log/ parts etc. too if that happens.

Ideally it would just use gyro data of the wheel itself which is already available, but I don't think that's something that I'd be capable of doing - that's upon wheel manufactures to figure out. An external solution would have the benefit of working with any wheel you put it on, though

[Rawnei]

9 hours ago, omuretsu said:

Different wheels do still respond slightly differently to the same rider movements, for at least two reasons:

1. Device weight. A heavier wheel will need to apply less deceleration in order to counteract a given rider braking position. This can't really be "the reason" why the lynx is good at braking, since it's heavier than a lot of wheels, but it is lighter than most wheels of the same height. Up to a certain point, height helps the rider achieve a more extreme braking position since the rider can be supported further up by the chassis or pads.

2. "Pedal hardness." I put that in quotes because even at 100% hard mode, the Lynx does have a noticeable tilt difference between deceleration and acceleration / riding at speed. By tilting back slightly while braking, if the rider does not react to this tilt by backing out of their position, the position becomes a more extreme torque on the wheel and requires a stronger deceleration to keep the system balanced.

----

Totally separate topic, but that tilt difference between deceleration and acceleration/riding at speed is significant enough to be a problem when using the Cyclope Halo light for night riding (even at 100% pedal hardness). That light basically has zones that are either fully lit or totally unlit, with no brightness gradient between. Because of this, if the lit zone is in a car's rear mirror, it's blindingly bright for the car.

When accelerating or riding at speed, it tilts the light downward, causing an effective loss in light range. When braking, it tilts the light upward. The difference between these two tilt angles is large enough that I either have to blind traffic whenever I am braking, or I have to have the light pointed down far enough that it's not safe to ride at speed without the high beams activated. I would not recommend getting that light or any other similar light where the edges of the light at at full brightness, at least for people who ride on roads frequently at night (I commute daily and work a 3rd shift).

Overall there seems to be this idea that the wheels are doing something magical by themselves when rider accelerates or brakes.

The only thing the wheel can do to spin the motor, it has no other tools at it's disposal, and it needs to do spin the motor in sync with the rider so that balance is kept, it's 100% a reactive response to the rider leaning, thus you can adjust pedal modes to get some lean assist (which is not something new on the Lynx) but all of the acceleration and braking happens because of rider input.

What is an advantage of the Lynx is that it is strong and the rider can lean confidently knowing that the wheel will not drop you, but then again I haven't really heard of anyone overpowering other wheels from hard braking.

Regarding device weight I'm not convinced that makes a difference, never have I seen or heard about anyone brake an EUC so hard that the tire loses traction but possibly device weight could make it easier/more difficult to get wobbles during braking but again if you're not getting brake wobbles it does not matter either.

Re: The halo light:

I know that he changed light model at some point, did anyone compare the vertical FOV of the old vs the new one? I know it has less horizontal FOV.

Also it will depend on your pedal mode, it's will be significantly more noticeable on soft than on hard.

When off-roading in the dark with this type of lamp you might need to angle it more downwards as well to light up terrain close to the wheel.

I have a similar custom made lamp, it has a big diffuse area above the anti-glare cut-off line but of course it is also affected by wheel tilting up and down that's kind of non-avoidable, it's a trade-off but works as intended in most scenarios and still fulfill it's purpose most of the time.

I think you won't really find any anti-glare lens light that is not affected by the wheel tilting so it's either that or a flood light similar to stock light.

Edit: One added benefit of the halo light is that it has a Daylight Running Light so during the day you don't even need to keep the lamp on and still be visible that's also a good bonus.

Edited April 29 by Rawnei

[onkeldanuel]

6 hours ago, Rawnei said:

Overall there seems to be this idea that the wheels are doing something magical by themselves when rider accelerates or brakes.

The only thing the wheel can do to spin the motor, it has no other tools at it's disposal, and it needs to do spin the motor in sync with the rider so that balance is kept, it's 100% a reactive response to the rider leaning, thus you can adjust pedal modes to get some lean assist (which is not something new on the Lynx) but all of the acceleration and braking happens because of rider input.

What is an advantage of the Lynx is that it is strong and the rider can lean confidently knowing that the wheel will not drop you, but then again I haven't really heard of anyone overpowering other wheels from hard braking.

Regarding device weight I'm not convinced that makes a difference, never have I seen or heard about anyone brake an EUC so hard that the tire loses traction but possibly device weight could make it easier/more difficult to get wobbles during braking but again if you're not getting brake wobbles it does not matter either.

Re: The halo light:

I know that he changed light model at some point, did anyone compare the vertical FOV of the old vs the new one? I know it has less horizontal FOV.

Also it will depend on your pedal mode, it's will be significantly more noticeable on soft than on hard.

When off-roading in the dark with this type of lamp you might need to angle it more downwards as well to light up terrain close to the wheel.

I have a similar custom made lamp, it has a big diffuse area above the anti-glare cut-off line but of course it is also affected by wheel tilting up and down that's kind of non-avoidable, it's a trade-off but works as intended in most scenarios and still fulfill it's purpose most of the time.

I think you won't really find any anti-glare lens light that is not affected by the wheel tilting so it's either that or a flood light similar to stock light.

Edit: One added benefit of the halo light is that it has a Daylight Running Light so during the day you don't even need to keep the lamp on and still be visible that's also a good bonus.

Does the persistent light mode in EUC World works for anyone here with the lynx? Or do we really need to turn the light on every time? 

[txwheel]

6 hours ago, Rawnei said:

Overall there seems to be this idea that the wheels are doing something magical by themselves when rider accelerates or brakes.

The only thing the wheel can do to spin the motor, it has no other tools at it's disposal, and it needs to do spin the motor in sync with the rider so that balance is kept, it's 100% a reactive response to the rider leaning, thus you can adjust pedal modes to get some lean assist (which is not something new on the Lynx) but all of the acceleration and braking happens because of rider input.

What is an advantage of the Lynx is that it is strong and the rider can lean confidently knowing that the wheel will not drop you, but then again I haven't really heard of anyone overpowering other wheels from hard braking.

Regarding device weight I'm not convinced that makes a difference, never have I seen or heard about anyone brake an EUC so hard that the tire loses traction but possibly device weight could make it easier/more difficult to get wobbles during braking but again if you're not getting brake wobbles it does not matter either.

Rawnei - it seems you are suggesting that a more powerful motor has no effect on stopping power other than to give the rider the confidence to lean back more aggressively without fear of a cut out.

If I am interpreting what you were saying correctly, I would have to disagree with you. As I understand it, motor power has a very direct effect on stopping distance.

Braking is essentially negative acceleration (deceleration), so with a more powerful motor, the result is not only better acceleration for the same effort of leaning forward, but also better deceleration for the same effort of leaning back. Although leaning back more aggressively will contribute to faster stopping, any contribution to stopping by leaning forces of the user is in addition to the more powerful motor and is not itself the primary factor.

Edited April 29 by txwheel

[Planemo]

8 minutes ago, txwheel said:

the result is not only better acceleration for the same effort of leaning forward but also better deceleration for the same effort of leaning back.

No it's not and Rawnei is correct.

The wheel will only input enough power to stay level. Ergo, if you are not overleaning the wheel either forwards or backwards then the motor is not being maxed.

As a result, for 2 otherwise identical wheels and ignoring the weight difference between motors, a 10,000w wheel will not stop/accelerate any quicker than a 4,000w wheel at the same lean angle (assuming neither are being overleaned). It just means that both will be supplying say 3,500w to stay upright and both will accelerate at the same speed.

[txwheel]

Notice that I said the same stopping effort, not angle.  The self balancing algorithms of a more powerful wheel will allow the user to apply more lean with less effort because the motor has the power to catch the lean. 
 

This is also why it’s easier to start rolling from a standstill with one foot if a wheel has a stronger motor. 
 

 

Edited April 29 by txwheel

[omuretsu]

A more powerful motor can prevent you from cutting out if you are using very extreme riding positions, but if you take the exact same EUC and make the motor/battery/controller all capable of operating at 1000x as much power with no change in size or weight, it will still respond exactly the same to the same riding position, unless we're talking about a riding position that was causing the less powerful EUC to go into tiltback.

The rider's position places a torque on the rider+wheel system, which would rotate at the wheel axle with no response from the wheel. The wheel's motor response is just to counteract the torque applied by the rider to prevent rotation of the overall system. If the rider's position is causing the required motor response to exceed some limit of one of the components, then the wheel will not be able to maintain balance and will cut out. In order to prevent that, most wheels have tiltback that occurs prior to reaching power limits, and audible alarms. Tiltback is basically the wheel attempting to force the rider into a position that places less torque on the wheel and requires less response from the motor.

Just now, txwheel said:

The self balancing algorithms of a more powerful wheel will allow the user to apply more lean with less effort because the motor has the power to catch the lean.

The wheel either has the power to keep you balanced, or it doesn't and will cut out. Having a 2x stronger motor doesn't help unless you were already running into cutout territory.

Soft mode does allow the rider to obtain more extreme riding positions with less effort, since instead of remaining completely level the wheel tilts more towards the direction you're trying to lean, but soft mode is not specific to powerful motors and can also make the rider feel less supported by the wheel.

Softer --> Wheel assists the rider in reaching an extreme lean by doing some of the lean for them. Also results in a brief delay in accessing the wheel's power.

Harder --> Wheel keeps the pedals level, which can make rider feel more secure / confident. Also results in a feeling of more immediate response from the wheel.

[Planemo]

20 minutes ago, txwheel said:

 The self balancing algorithms of a more powerful wheel will allow the user to apply more lean with less effort because the motor has the power to catch the lean. 

No it doesn't.

The motor either has the power to stay upright or it doesn't. If you're not into overlean territory the wattage of the motor makes zero difference.

 

[Planemo]

12 minutes ago, omuretsu said:

keep you balanced, or it doesn't and will cut out. Having a 2x stronger motor doesn't help unless you were already running into cutout territory.

Sorry, just seen this posted before mine. Correct of course.

[omuretsu]

7 hours ago, Rawnei said:

Regarding device weight I'm not convinced that makes a difference, never have I seen or heard about anyone brake an EUC so hard that the tire loses traction but possibly device weight could make it easier/more difficult to get wobbles during braking but again if you're not getting brake wobbles it does not matter either.

I do still think device weight matters. Maybe I am making a mistake though. The rider's position will apply a certain amount of torque on the system that would tend to cause rotation backwards (if braking), and the wheel will need to counter that torque using the force from the road surface. The rider-applied torque depends on body weight and position, not on wheel weight, so a heavy wheel and a light wheel need to apply the same amount of torque to the road surface in response. Torque is force x distance from point of rotation, which for the road surface is the radius of the tire x force. So for the same radius tire and same torque needed (from same rider position), the same force needs to be applied at the road surface to keep everything level.

And the same force will cause less acceleration/deceleration for a heavier wheel+rider system.

Edited April 29 by omuretsu

[Frolic0415]

8 hours ago, Rawnei said:

never have I seen or heard about anyone brake an EUC so hard that the tire loses traction

My MSP had a custom rollcage that I used as a handlebar, I could pull it hard whilst seated that the tire would skid when breaking heavily - I only did it a few times as I was scared of overtorquing the wheel and cutting it out.

 

Edited April 29 by Frolic0415

[PeWoo]

On 4/28/2024 at 5:57 PM, Mike Sacristan said:

Leaperkim already gives us a rough % approximation. 8 bars = 12.5% per bar.
However... I set Darknessbot to 4.2V as 100% and 3.3V as 0% and discharge curve = ON. Then I can see % for decent performance.
I am a bit more gentle at 130V and below though so I won't go crazy pushing to 45mph.

Every time I turn my wheel on I set it to show voltage on the display. This way I am a glance away from checking my voltage and voltage sag while riding.
If I am at 135V then I am at 50%of the meaning voltage. At that voltage I know I can hit 75kmh (wheel reported) and beeps. Which means I will think twice about trying to smoke an EXN rider. Even though there are only 2 bars missing on the display... so that would be ~62.5 to 75% in Leaperkim match.

Speed follows the performance curve down to 3.4V. After that things go downhill very fast. 

150V = 100% (actually 151.2) 
140V = 66%
130V = 33%
120V = 0% (actually 118.8)

That's how I roll. 
All volts are not equal.

Hmmm, in my case after more than 70km (started from 146,8V - shown as 95%), the voltage was 124,9V and it was showing 33%.
Stats from EUC World (https://euc.world/tour/632547999742292):

Edited April 29 by PeWoo

[daniel1234]

11 hours ago, PeWoo said:

Hmmm, in my case after more than 70km 

my 50e have range of around 70-80. I am sure 50s can squeze 90 km if you ride at this slow pace.

I cannot help myself on Lynx, and I am pushing it to 3500w+ at a majority of starts/takeoff, so I rarely see that range myself...

I don't like how the algorithm breaks, I am riding 100% hard all the time, just to get stopping force. I would love to have some more options to configure the ride feel.

Just pedal hardness is not enough. For me, it is weird that there are almost no advancements in the software part of the new wheels. Not sure why - they could steal ideas from VESC community.