V12 Cutout tracking

[supercurio]

21 minutes ago, Jean eRide.ie Community said:

It was mentioned on a video by Madpack, but it seems like in the end they are not doing it. 

Yes it was planned to be deployed in the production apps more than a month ago, but it seems we managed to convince them that the test was inconclusive so they dropped it.

Glad they did since the stress test gives a false sense of security.

[onizukagto]

Not dissing on anyone but recent events...  Makes this whole "mosfet cutout" issue seem a bit overblown.

I mean, it could be worse, like cutting out and exploding into flames. 

Gotta give some credit here to the fire prevention. Not excusing the mosfet-failure, but at least no one felt threaten about a V12 fire hazard. 

[Tawpie]

There might be credit due, but it might be luck or a different kind of failure mode. I've no idea if V12 failures have blown fuses in the batteries but if they haven't, that implies that when the MOSFET died it didn't short the battery (for very long). The V12 failures haven't been reported to have let any magic smoke out of the failed parts‚ they probably failed "open" rather than shorted, and failing 'open' will not (usually!) result in a short across the battery.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Tawpie

[RagingGrandpa]

On 3/29/2022 at 11:55 PM, Tawpie said:

I've no idea if V12 failures have blown fuses

Inmo uses fuses in the controller.
It's very likely they melt when controllers fail; but won't be visually obvious.

[supercurio]

40 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Inmo uses fuses in the controller.
It's very likely they melt when controllers fail; but won't be visually obvious.

Multiple boards were repaired by only replacing the dead MOSFET, and apparently no fuse were blown.
These board failed so safely that a visual inspection is not enough to tell MOSFET were blown, you had to check each of them with a multimeter.

[ESB]

On 3/29/2022 at 2:19 AM, onizukagto said:

Not dissing on anyone but recent events...  Makes this whole "mosfet cutout" issue seem a bit overblown.

I mean, it could be worse, like cutting out and exploding into flames. 

Gotta give some credit here to the fire prevention. Not excusing the mosfet-failure, but at least no one felt threaten about a V12 fire hazard. 

Nope. Disagree.

like, okay yes it’s nice v12s don’t light on fire but that simply cannot be the bar we hold manufacturers to, lol.

Frequent cutouts like what the v12 experienced is really bad and unsafe and not overblown.

not trying to give you a hard time. I see what you mean with “things could be worse” but eeeek let’s not allow us to switch into a mindset where “as long as there’s no fire, things aren’t so bad”

Edited April 2, 2022 by ESB

[onizukagto]

On 4/2/2022 at 3:36 PM, ESB said:

Nope. Disagree.

like, okay yes it’s nice v12s don’t light on fire but that simply cannot be the bar we hold manufacturers to, lol.

Frequent cutouts like what the v12 experienced is really bad and unsafe and not overblown.

not trying to give you a hard time. I see what you mean with “things could be worse” but eeeek let’s not allow us to switch into a mindset where “as long as there’s no fire, things aren’t so bad”

OK. But the real question is, will inmotion follow the industry standard and rename the V12 to V22 so that we know we will get a fixed non-cutout non-explody version? 

[Tawpie]

46 minutes ago, onizukagto said:

OK. But the real question is, will inmotion follow the industry standard and rename the V12 to V22 so that we know we will get a fixed non-cutout non-explody version? 

Interesting point... how will one be able to tell whether or not the control board has been replaced, and what it was replaced with? (I'm not an advocate for changing the marketing name, but maybe the app will be able to tell?)

[meepmeepmayer]

1 hour ago, onizukagto said:

OK. But the real question is, will inmotion follow the industry standard and rename the V12 to V22 so that we know we will get a fixed non-cutout non-explody version? 

I know this is just a joke, but I feel compelled to say this:

Inmotion had a (sadly, predictably) bad board design (MOSFETs just too small) with the V12, but it looks like they are doing the only sensible thing and are making the hardware changes that can be fully expected to reliably fix the issue. And there were "only" board failures, no battery fires.

KS had a novel catastrophic battery fire in addition to the board failure, and are proposing to "fix" the issue with a software update and nothing else.

Quite different situations. In fact this makes the (awful enough) V12 issue look good in comparison.

Edited April 4, 2022 by meepmeepmayer

[Paul g]

49 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Interesting point... how will one be able to tell whether or not the control board has been replaced, and what it was replaced with? (I'm not an advocate for changing the marketing name, but maybe the app will be able to tell?)

@Tawpie They will go with the V12 HS version 2    

38 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I know this is just a joke, but I feel compelled to say this:

Inmotion had a (sadly, predictably) bad board design (MOSFETs just too small) with the V12, but it looks like they are doing the only sensible thing and are making the hardware changes that can be fully expected to reliably fix the issue. And there were "only" board failures, no battery fires.

KS had a novel catastrophic battery fire in addition to the board failure, and are proposing to "fix" the issue with a software update and nothing else.

Quite different situations. In fact this makes the (awful enough) V12 issue look good in comparison.

@meepmeepmayer KS seems to work on their S20-22 batteries, as seen on their youtube channel, but nothing about MOSFETS ???

[meepmeepmayer]

57 minutes ago, Paul g said:

@meepmeepmayer KS seems to work on their S20-22 batteries, as seen on their youtube channel, but nothing about MOSFETS ???

They do? That's good, I only heard about BMS firmware fixes. The S20/S22 mosfets are probably fine, no problem yet showed where the TO-247 size was too small.

The V12 is rumored to get a new board with TO-247 sized mosfets right? That should fix these board failures.

[mrelwood]

 

1 minute ago, meepmeepmayer said:

The V12 is rumored to get a new board with TO-247 sized mosfets right? That should fix these board failures.

The physical size of the mosfets is only one piece of the puzzle. Just like powerful cars come in many sizes, big and small.

AFAIK, the V12 HS will get a new controller board with a new higher voltage rated mosfet model, but they are still using the same physical TO-220 package. If the mosfet model is chosen well, I see no reason why it wouldn’t be sufficient for the task.

 The V12 HT though will get a newly designed board and thermal layout with the physically larger TO-247 mosfets. This could improve the behavior at demanding off-road situations such as continuous or repeated extremely steep slow speed climbing.

[Tawpie]

7 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

The V12 is rumored to get a new board with TO-247 sized mosfets right? That should fix these board failures.

It sort of depends... the thing that stuck out about the existing V12 (is it called the HS or did we make that up?) was that their chosen part wasn't spec'd for the voltage it would be operated at. Changing the package from a TO-220 to a TO-247 might allow it to be cooled better (if the heat transfer mechanism supports it etc etc), but unless the part is a different part with a higher Vds I wouldn't expect the problem to go away.

[meepmeepmayer]

2 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

AFAIK, the V12 HS will get a new controller board with a new higher voltage rated mosfet model, but they are still using the same physical TO-220 package. If the mosfet model is chosen well, I see no reason why it wouldn’t be sufficient for the task.

 The V12 HT though will get a newly designed board and thermal layout with the physically larger TO-247 mosfets. This could improve the behavior at demanding off-road situations such as continuous or repeated extremely steep slow speed climbing.

Why not use the clearly better board for all V12 models? The board they have anyways?

Well, if it works, but I would not trust a V12 HS on any steep hills then...

[supercurio]

6 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

AFAIK, the V12 HS will get a new controller board with a new higher voltage rated mosfet model, but they are still using the same physical TO-220 package. If the mosfet model is chosen well, I see no reason why it wouldn’t be sufficient for the task.

 The V12 HT though will get a newly designed board and thermal layout with the physically larger TO-247 mosfets. This could improve the behavior at demanding off-road situations such as continuous or repeated extremely steep slow speed climbing.

So far I believe this has been my own best guess based on the few details Inmotion shared in direct messages, but that's about it.
I still think it's probable (pro: allows to re-use the existing heatsink, con: 1 more mainboard variant out here to tune and maintain compatibility with) but let us know if you got actual confirmation for this 

[mrelwood]

8 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Why not use the clearly better board for all V12 models? The board they have anyways?

Well, if it works, but I would not trust a V12 HS on any steep hills then...

I wouldn’t get hung up on the physical size alone. There are capable TO-220 mosfets as well.

 The whole thermal block and layout needs to be redesigned for the TO-247 mosfets to fit, so having it be able to fit the current HS frame could limit the design choices they have for the HT board. The new HS board needs to fit existing wheels after all.

 But we don’t know the actual solutions just yet, this was only based on what I’ve read here.

EDIT: To my knowledge the old V12 has already performed very well on steep inclines. No reason to expect anything less from the new HS.

Edited April 4, 2022 by mrelwood

[Paul g]

6 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

The S20/S22 mosfets are probably fine, no problem yet showed where the TO-247 size was too small.

100V mosfets on 126V wheel ? that can’t accelerate/brake properly ,  than why mosfets burned out and than battery took fire- exactly because of wrong mosfets , @meepmeepmayer do you think this is good    ?

[Rawnei]

11 minutes ago, Paul g said:

100V mosfets on 126V wheel ?

Where did you get this from?

[meepmeepmayer]

I only meant the mosfet package size (TO 247, which has never shown any problems so far). Don't know anything about the actual S20/S22 mosfets. I sure hope they are properly specced.

Anyways, this is a V12 thread and I'm afraid I've derailed it a bit.... so I just hope this new V12 HS board works. I wonder when we will get more information about the new V12 HS and V12 HT boards. It's been a while. But I guess designing a new board takes time.

[Paul g]

On 2/25/2022 at 11:46 AM,  RArtem said: 

HY5012W（TO-247）aren't these mosfets being used on Begode 100V wheels?

 

   On 2/25/2022 at 12:02 PM,  supercurio said: 

Yes indeed as well as Veteran Sherman, hence proven.

“Also add King Song S18 and now the S20 to the list of EUC's using (TO-247)” .   <-  @fbhb

https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/24258-inmotion-v12/page/54/
 

@Rawnei I thought this is verified info 

@meepmeepmayer I don’t like  wrong mosfets on the wrong battery voltage. Something will go wrong sooner or later. 😑 

China is in lockdown now because of the Covid outbreak 😷, so will have to wait some more 

* the citing function of the forum doesn’t work properly when the cited text has other people cited in their comment . I struggle.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Paul g

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, Paul g said:

“Also add King Song S18 and now the S20 to the list of EUC's using (TO-247)” .   <-  @fbhb

https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/24258-inmotion-v12/page/54/
 

@Rawnei I thought this is verified info 

@meepmeepmayer I don’t like  wrong mosfets on the wrong battery voltage. Something will go wrong sooner or later. 😑 

Ah. Yes. Don't confuse the package description (TO-247 and TO-220) with the voltage rating of the part. They're not related, and you can get most parts in your choice of package. The "package" is the way the finished part looks, in this case how the heat tab is fashioned. Inside the package is the actual part, and it's the various ratings (voltage, current) of the actual part that matters. It's not terribly different from putting your beer into a bottle or a wax carton. The beer is the same, but the package is different and the package can have an effect on the performance of the beer. Ultimately you want good beer in a good bottle, but you can put Budweiser in a good bottle... it's still beer, but which would you rather bring along on a nice afternoon?

BTW, being packaged in a TO-247 offers the designer a better chance at properly cooling the part, but if you don't get rid of the heat after it leaves the part you've still got a Commander/EXN issue. There are a number of considerations at play—and you need to get each of them mostly right to have a result that's reliable.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Tawpie

[Paul g]

I thought it is about HY5012W not the form factor

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, Paul g said:

I thought it is about HY5012W not the form factor

I don't remember reading an IM commitment to much of anything with respect to the replacement motherboards. Dealers have indicated that swaps will be available but I think we're making assumptions (still). The replacement boards may have the same parts except they were properly stored by their subcontractor or they may have different parts... I don't think IM has said. At least, I haven't seen anything that looked official from IM. (caveat: I haven't searched either!)

Edited April 4, 2022 by Tawpie

[Silverfish]

I will never noticed the extra speed on the v12 because I will never get close to its top speed.

If I am someone who is just riding around (in a somewhat hilly city) would I ever notice the extra torque on the HT model vs the regular one? Or would you have to be doing crazy inclines or offroading to notice it?

[Paul g]

16 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

I don't remember reading an IM commitment to much of anything with respect to the replacement motherboards. Dealers have indicated that swaps will be available but I think we're making assumptions (still). The replacement boards may have the same parts except they were properly stored by their subcontractor or they may have different parts... I don't think IM has said. At least, I haven't seen anything that looked official from IM. (caveat: I haven't searched either!)

@Tawpie  this must be one of those days…  I was talking about S20