Mono Posted December 4, 2022 Share Posted December 4, 2022 21 minutes ago, mlau said: Grab an edited version of the wheellog csv at [1]; the interesting parts start at line 593 [1] http://mlau.at/2022_08_21_20_14_42.csv The link seems not to work for me, I suspect that I don't have sufficient rights? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlau Posted December 4, 2022 Share Posted December 4, 2022 7 minutes ago, Mono said: The link seems not to work for me, I suspect that I don't have sufficient rights? I attached the file in the previous post. Didn't know I could do that 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted December 4, 2022 Share Posted December 4, 2022 2 hours ago, mlau said: I attached the file in the previous post. Didn't know I could do that I made a (quick and dirty) zoomed plot and can't really figure out any chain of physical events that would perfectly match the data I see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Chriull Posted December 19, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted December 19, 2022 On 8/29/2022 at 3:45 PM, mlau said: Good Day, Last weeked I crashed my V12(HS) at 43km/h in what feels to me like the cutouts that are described here. At least I can't find another explanation: I was travelling on level paved road, no bumps, holes or other obstacles on it, going 43km/h (while slowly decelerating from ~50), and without any warning I was thrown off. The slowdown from ~50 to 43 km/h was a decreasing speed near max speed tiltback decreasing with decreasing battery capacity? Or just your own decision? On 8/29/2022 at 3:45 PM, mlau said: I had wheellog logging the trip, and at the time of the crash, the sensor data says that I was suddenly leaning forward 10 degress as was going 90km/h (from 43 to 90 in 0.4seconds!) of course it then decided it cannot keep this state up and shut down power to motor. It's a bit like the crashes that the youtube channel "WrongWay" experienced, but I landed on my face instead. As @Mono already stated this was after the second "spike" once your wheel was already tumbling on it's own. As the data shows you where first riding aroung 43 km/h (the blue dots between 8-18 A). The next that happened was the wheel accelerating and tilting back until 20° (the red squares from left to right). At the point at ~60km/h|80A you probably already hit the max torque over speed limit and overleaned a bit, but ?recovered somehow/or were already in process of dismounting? - burden decreased to ~20A but then still accelerated into the overlean (yellow triangles). Then the wheel stopped and fell aside/turned around (green triangles). Wheel spun a bit backwards (did not know Inmotion reports negative speeds). After this the wheel came up again and somehow by it's "body beeing lent forward" accelerated again - second spike till ~43 km/h|40A and went on accelerating till overlean (red triangles). Then it fell again and stayed on it's side. Seeing this gives me the thought that when you were comfortably riding at around 43 km/h the wheel for some reason decided to tiltback - you did not "understand this or needed time to regain balance once the tiltback kicked in" and tried to hold balance on the rising pedal, so the wheel accelerated further until it overleaned. The rest was erratic tumbling. BTW: That's the reason i think that tiltforward is the better measure to stop the rider from accelerating - with a tiltforward the normal intrinsic/panic-driven reaction is to shift the weight back on the heels so one does not fall forward and hence decelerates the wheel. With a sudden tiltback (like here in 0,7 seconds from 1,3 to 20,8°) by just trying to regain balance one stands on the rising pedal with ones toes and accelerates the wheel further - until overcoming this situation by shifting the weight back again. On a 20° tilted back pedal on an accelerating wheel, which feels very unnatural - like letting loose and letting oneself fall backwards! On 12/4/2022 at 8:54 AM, mlau said: I was thrown forward; all I remember is that the wheel just stopped powering the motor, no sudden acceleration. Which does not really fit with the data? Maybe the short acceleration before you were thrown off forward could have felt as one "bad incident"? On 8/30/2022 at 3:25 PM, mlau said: Or a sensor (gyro, speed) error, which led to a computed state that was unsustainable and therefore it shut off. speedy feet have opened a ticket with inmotion, but I haven't received any worthwile response yet. On 11/18/2022 at 6:40 PM, mlau said: I certainly believe that either the gyrosensor sometimes gives bad readings, or the firmware does no quick plausibility check of the data received (from the sensor or the STM32-clones' i2c/spi interfaces the sensor is attached to...) If I'd design such a vehicle, I'd put at least 3 gyro sensors in, attached to different serial interfaces just to be rule out a bad one early, the sensors aren't that expensive (low 2 digits $). Imo there is no problem with the gyro sensors - all the roll and tilt values seem sound. Gyro data and the accelerometer data "calibrate and denoise" one against the other with the used algorithms, so even some bad readings inbetween should not matter. MIssing values (communication error) should leave alarms in the log. On 11/18/2022 at 6:40 PM, mlau said: It's also curious that it happened around 60% battery charge (me, you, wrongway). That's the only thing that looked a bit off - the battery voltage. Your whole ride the voltage seems "normaly" changing - just at the end there were two "strong" voltage sags. The last one just at the start of your accident A bit more zoomed in one sees the were just very short events - only one measurment value. Interestingly the second sag went down to 75,96V - which is 3,165V per cell. More or less around empty battery - don't know the exact limit of the V12? Also we do not know the real voltage sag minimum as the values are reported just with ~5 samples per second. However maybe the firmware decided batteries are empty and it'll stop you immedeately by tilting back? Or there was some small road irregularity, a pebble/branch beeing sucked between tire and chassis and the voltage sag was by the wheel trying to overcome the sudden burden? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlau Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 On 12/19/2022 at 10:31 AM, Chriull said: Interestingly the second sag went down to 75,96V - which is 3,165V per cell. More or less around empty battery - don't know the exact limit of the V12? Also we do not know the real voltage sag minimum as the values are reported just with ~5 samples per second. However maybe the firmware decided batteries are empty and it'll stop you immedeately by tilting back? Or there was some small road irregularity, a pebble/branch beeing sucked between tire and chassis and the voltage sag was by the wheel trying to overcome the sudden burden? You could be on to something: after repairing the V12 (motor change since the rim was bent), I charged it to full again, rode it for another 60km and now I have one dead battery pack. I just remember falling on my face; I don't remember any tiltback or beeps. The surface was very rough dry asphalt, but no potholes and no hard objects on it either). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 4 hours ago, mlau said: and now I have one dead battery pack. Some serious issue firmware mostly does not cover with alarms. Or it maybe starts crazy tiltbacks... ,:( 4 hours ago, mlau said: I just remember falling on my face; I don't remember any tiltback or beeps. After falling on the face one could have easily lost the memory of some time before. That's only you who can tell if there could be some leaks or you just remember every detail that happened. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriskova Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 Hi guys! I was reading the forums about V12 for days now and I have a hard time to decide whether V12 HT is something worth to spend on. Everyone is saying that when it is working, it is awesome. I really like the package, it seems to tick everything for me but I am hesitant to pull the trigger because of the issues many people had at the beginning. This would be my first wheel, I want the experience to be about learning to ride, getting into this world and less about dealing with issues.@Chriull @mlau You guys seem to be very familiar with this wheel. Would you ride a V12 HT daily? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 The HT did not have the bad problems. That was just the HS, which is fixed now. Both should be really good now. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Evans Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 54 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: The HT did not have the bad problems. That was just the HS, which is fixed now. Both should be really good now. agreed. btw, i own a v12 hs. i have over 4000miles on it and love it. it did have issues initially, but once it got the new controller board it was just awesome 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
versus Posted December 25, 2022 Share Posted December 25, 2022 (edited) Mine happened just moment ago. No cutout but sudden acceleration problem. Result is a bit lighter. You fall on your butt and not your face. Look in this post Edited December 25, 2022 by versus 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlau Posted December 29, 2022 Share Posted December 29, 2022 On 12/23/2022 at 11:31 AM, kriskova said: @mlau You guys seem to be very familiar with this wheel. Would you ride a V12 HT daily? On well maintained roads, definitely, offroading is not my cup of tea. I switched to wearing heavier gear when riding it though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post kriskova Posted January 2, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted January 2, 2023 Hey guys! Thanks for your input! I decided to go with it and I already have the first 15kms behind me. I really like it so far. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 There haven't been any complaints about the V12 for quite a while now. This issue definitely seems to be over, apart from the early batch affected wheels that might still be out there. Thread unpinned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingto Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 On 2/4/2023 at 2:08 PM, meepmeepmayer said: There haven't been any complaints about the V12 for quite a while now. This issue definitely seems to be over, apart from the early batch affected wheels that might still be out there. Thread unpinned Looks like I'm part of the cutout crew now.. 1st ride on my brand new V12HT, was absolutely loving it. The nimbleness and power was so much fun, immediately fell in love with it. I know better not to push a new wheel too much right away, and spent the 10 minutes I was on it just getting used to it, carving back and forth and not punching the gas too much. When I got to a straight smoothly paved road with no cracks or potholes, I accelerated up to 27mph/44k. Wheel out of nowhere cuts out, and will not turn on anymore. Gear did it's job, Lazy Armour coat has a few new holes, same with pants and gloves, and my right forearm and left knee lost just a little skin, helmet never touched the ground. Just really glad I wasn't around any people when this happened. Otherwise really kinda bummed this happened to such a fun and promising wheel. Grrr.. Emailing the dealer now. I'm 225 when fully geared up. Data Log from EUCworld attached. EUC data 2023-02-05 155113.csv 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 2 minutes ago, vikingto said: Looks like I'm part of the cutout crew now.. Ah crap!! Can you find anything that tells how old the wheel is? Where did you buy from? What is your firmware version? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingto Posted February 6, 2023 Share Posted February 6, 2023 3 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: Ah crap!! Can you find anything that tells how old the wheel is? Where did you buy from? What is your firmware version? Hey thanks for responding so quick. So I bought it from ewheels, was shipped out 1/30 and received 2/2/2023. I updated the firmware to latest version immediately upon receiving. Is there a way for us to tell from the serial # what batch it was? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techyiam Posted February 6, 2023 Share Posted February 6, 2023 17 minutes ago, vikingto said: Wheel out of nowhere cuts out, and will not turn on anymore. If you place your V12 HT on its side and rotate the wheel, do you find it hard to turn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingto Posted February 6, 2023 Share Posted February 6, 2023 2 minutes ago, techyiam said: If you place your V12 HT on its side and rotate the wheel, do you find it hard to turn? Affirmative. I can turn it, but it's not easy and there's something all sorts of f-d up going on in there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradox Posted February 6, 2023 Share Posted February 6, 2023 16 minutes ago, vikingto said: Data Log from EUCworld attached. I don't see anything out of the ordinary here. Looks normal to me. Unfortunately electronics can fail without warning. The V12ht was thought to be safe from the cutouts mentioned in this thread. This thread was started to track the mosfet disaster on the OG V12. I do hope this is not something that will end up being a problem with this batch. TIme will tell. Jason at eWheels will take good care of you. Good choice to buy from them. Seeing that it was brand new out of the box I would ask for a replacement not a repair. I'm sure there is some damage to the wheel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techyiam Posted February 6, 2023 Share Posted February 6, 2023 5 minutes ago, vikingto said: Affirmative. I can turn it, but it's not easy and there's something all sorts of f-d up going on in there. Shorted mosfet. Strange on a V12 HT. Maybe outlier? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingto Posted February 6, 2023 Share Posted February 6, 2023 5 minutes ago, Paradox said: I don't see anything out of the ordinary here. Looks normal to me. Unfortunately electronics can fail without warning. The V12ht was thought to be safe from the cutouts mentioned in this thread. This thread was started to track the mosfet disaster on the OG V12. I do hope this is not something that will end up being a problem with this batch. TIme will tell. Jason at eWheels will take good care of you. Good choice to buy from them. Seeing that it was brand new out of the box I would ask for a replacement not a repair. I'm sure there is some damage to the wheel. Oh yeah, totally not worried about Jason taking good care of this, he's a peach. 2nd wheel bought from him, and his follow up care and super quick response has always been top notch. There's certainly damage to the shell in various places, and I think the kickstand ended up in Lake Superior, no joke lol. I looked everywhere for it. Me? I'm good just a lil stiff. Good excuse to get a massage tomorrow.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingto Posted February 6, 2023 Share Posted February 6, 2023 13 minutes ago, techyiam said: Shorted mosfet. Strange on a V12 HT. Maybe outlier? I certainly hope so. I mean I really was enjoying that wheel for the short amount of time I was on it. And, playing the odds, most likely it wouldn't happen again with the same model. So I think I'll probably opt to have ewheels just send me out a replacement instead of switching to a different model. Because this was a cutout, not the wheel skitzing out like it did for WrongWay and a small percentage of others. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingto Posted February 6, 2023 Share Posted February 6, 2023 And maybe I'd be better off waiting for the next production batch, see if they'll work out the kinks more? A V12 HT Pro or something? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingto Posted February 6, 2023 Share Posted February 6, 2023 I don't think in motion does that tho. "Oh, here's a Master. And now a Master Pro. Now a Master Pro SE. Master Pro SE Ultimate. Master Master, ..." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robse Posted February 6, 2023 Share Posted February 6, 2023 4 minutes ago, vikingto said: And maybe I'd be better off waiting for the next production batch, see if they'll work out the kinks more? A V12 HT Pro or something? Not waterproof, but works; no cutouts or backwards acceleration or other weird things going on. Simple to work on. Simple chinese tech, and it's a smooth ride https://www.ewheels.com/product/new-gotway-rs-19-100v-1800wh-battery/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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