Nikola vs 16x for experienced rider

[Ewan]

Hi there, I’m an experienced euc rider and I’m trying to decide on a new wheel. I don’t have any specific requirements for it I just need something that’s fun to ride and has good specs. So far I have sort of liked the look of the Nikola and the 16x, which one should I get or should I bet something else entirely. Thanks

[meepmeepmayer]

They're both good. Currently, I'd stay away from the Begodes due to the unclear battery issues, even though the Nik has a great reputation overall.

The V12 also exists and is the latest and greatest 16x3 inch wheel, and the price doesn't seem to be much higher.

[Tawpie]

Haha!

Don’t believe my advice except “it depends”. That’s solid.

I really like my 16x and have no (current) plans to sell it. It’s a blast to ride on and off road, has been super reliable and for me goes plenty fast enough. But it does not go fast enough for many and if you like speed it’s kind of an unsafe choice.

The Nik+ (heresay) is every bit as much fun and reliable and it goes faster. But you might get unlucky with the batteries and it might be top heavy.

The V12 sounds to me like it’s the successor for both wheels… it’s working through its teething pains and if I wanted another non suspension wheel the V12 would be my step up from the 16x. But I don’t want to upgrade my 16x!

So, it depends.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Tawpie

[mrelwood]

@Ewan, which wheels have you ridden so far? It makes a big difference to what is familiar and comfortable to you.

 For me personally the Nikola is way too wide at the top. Enough to make it a bit off a clumsy wheel. The MSX shell is much lower, making it more nimble despite the larger 18X3” tire. Other than that it felt like the MSX, pedal swaying and dipping and all.

 After the first 3 seconds on the V12 though, the 16X and the Nik immediately felt like dated wheels from past years. Which they quite frankly are… 

If I were to buy a non-suspension wheel, I wouldn’t even consider anything else than the V12, despite being very strongly an 18” rider. With the correct settings the V12 was just so stable that it fooled me into thinking that I was riding an 18” wheel. I didn’t ride it very fast though, and I’m sure the 16” nature would reveal itself eventually.

[mike_bike_kite]

I had the same choice when looking for an upgrade from my KS16S. I loved the look and functionality of the 16X but I'm fairly big at 6'3" and 200lbs and the safe top speed on the 16X wouldn't be much of an improvement over my 16S (about 4mph). However, if you need to use your wheel on public transport, then I think the 16X wins. I ended up buying a Nikola+ never having seen one in the flesh and I'm really glad I did. People talk about it's width but it's just the initial 10 minutes and after that it appears quite natural. I never worry about riding too fast on the Nik+ but I do worry about scratches on the case if I fall - I bought a really nice black neoprene cover and it works really well on the wheel.  Overall, I'm very happy with my wheel but there's always that vague worry with Begode that it might burst into flames (I think there's been one case with a Nikola) but it's not a big enough worry to bother me. The V12 is also a good contender. It offers just a little more than both the 16X and the Nik+ but no-one ever seems to write passionately about owning their V12 and that puts me off a little.

[yoos]

I don't know whether @Ewan has bought a wheel yet, but I am in a similar predicament [want to upgrade before spring] and am now leaning towards a 16X. I am a third floor/no elevator city dweller and do not particularly crave speed. I am a 90% commuter (~20-30 km a day, 60% bicycle lane, 25% sidewalk, 15% street) and 10% offroader. My 16S 420 Wh lacks speed (30kmh specified, I stay within 26kmh), range (22km fast, 30km slow) and a decent light (It's only good enough for frontal visibility). Initially I considered V10F, 16X, 18XL, V11, V12, S18. Begodes are too fiery and unreliable, the speed is not worth it for me. The V10F is too little of an upgrade and the 16"x2.5" is not comfortable enough. V12 is now out of question due to the MOSFET disaster (there seem to be MOSFET incidents on V11 and V10F as well, but less frequently). 16X (agility and torque) beats 18XL (cruise and high speed stability + slightly higher weight) for me. The suspension wheels have higher cost, maintenance, weight. The V12HT might be great, but I don't want the early-batch roulette and the weight is too much for my commuting.

I envision buying a more modern wheel (e.g. the mysterious V13 which has still time to employ proper MOSFETs or the S20) a few years later.

[mike_bike_kite]

@yoos, just some random thoughts for you: could you just expand the current battery pack to the full 840Wh? this means you could ride at the full speed of the 16S without worrying so much about speed throttling when the battery level reaches 40%. This would also be the cheapest option. You say the 16S lacks speed but the 16X isn't a great deal faster, especially if you're a heavy rider.

All the big league wheels weigh substantially more than the 16S and that might be a big factor climbing up your stairs. I wouldn't like to carry my Nikola+ up to the 3rd floor of a building. Have you considered the Tesla 3, it's not much heavier than the 16S but offers more speed and range. I know it's a Begode but I haven't heard of any of those having issues as they're 84v wheels (I think).

I think the best option though, is just to move to a ground floor flat.

Edited January 6, 2022 by mike_bike_kite
spelling :(

[yoos]

2 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I think the best option though, is just to move to a ground floor flat.

Ground floors have their drawbacks, especially in a big city, and most are rented out to businesses (at least in the city center where I'd like to stay). It's much easier to move to some place equipped with elevators.  In fact, that might happen in a year or so. Sadly, the house in question was built in 1932 when elevators were already a thing but they didn't figure out how to make the most of them: it starts at the raised ground floor so you still have to manage a flight of stairs from street level to reach the elevator.

The T3 weighs 22kg and the 16X 23.5kg - not that much of a difference. Although I don't know of any burnt Teslas I still prefer the KS robustness. I also like a 16x3 tire better. 

Upgrading the 16S might be a good option indeed. I guess I should ask ecodrift for a quote on parts and service (by the way, ecodrift offers a standard 16S upgrade service, lifting pedals and fitting a 2.5 tire). However, 35kph would still feel slow and I am not sure whether the torque would suffice. In my commutes there are stairs with ramps (for bicycles and strollers). I would like to be able to climb them easily (the ramps are still perilous: narrow metallic ramps on stone stairs. There are also rails sometimes which prevent riding the EUC. Finally, they are very slippery in the rain, I can trolley the EUC neither up nor down). There is also a particular climb in the forest near my parents country house which is a bit to steep for the 16S.

Anyway, I am still hesitant, spending an inappropriate time on weighing the choices. That' part of the fun I guess  

Another possible choice would be the updated S18 (they planned to update the motor and some suspension parts to shave off 1 kg while somehow improving performance). But with the S20 being so late I doubt it will happen any time soon if at all.

[.....]

The s18 isnt much fun to carry. I also think that is any form of speed is what you are after, the 16x isnt much an upgrade. Carrying ability is more than just weight, format makes a difference as well. If upgrading your 16s isnt too expensive (ask Tawpie), perhaps do that and wait to see if the s20 (or other), proves to help. Of course, isnt the s20 going to be god awful heavy too? I am kind of losing faith in what the future of euc quality is bringing.

Until battery tech changes, you are simply going to be using more weight to get more specs. Since the weights are pretty much relative, it probably better to focus on other factors first. My 18XL is pretty heavy, but theres simply no way around it, as I like going 27mph and I like having headroom. Lighter would mean I lose those things. I spend more time riding than lifting, and I'd rather cuss halfway up a flight of stairs, than cuss as a cutout slides me on my face. The Nik is a dandy wheel, but its just too chunky for me. Of course, I learned on a more narrow wheel. Wierd, sherman doesnt feel as oddly chunky as the nik, go figure...

Edited January 6, 2022 by ShanesPlanet

[Hellkitten]

@yoosI’ve seen a number of heavy wheels with knobby tires get pushed up stairs. The grooves between the knobs grab the corner of the steps and stop the motor from spinning out. That kind of tire would could give you a few more options, plus with your winter riding it might be a nice change?

Sorry for the slight derail op. 😬 

[Tawpie]

25 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

If upgrading your 16s isnt too expensive (ask Tawpie)

I upgraded a 16XS to double the battery, something that's quite easy to do—not counting the effort to gather and prepare the beaver pelts necessary to trade for the battery. I don't believe the 16S has room for any more batteries but have never seen the insides of one so don't believe me on that for a second.

Anything over 50 lbs is tough for me to carry very far, but I've found that grabbing the S18 by its handle and the gold suspension makes it surprisingly easy to muscle around. My one nagging concern about my S20 pre-order (besides it being first batch) is that it'll be too heavy for me. And I'm not strapping 20 lbs of dumbbells to the S18 to test it out... if you can't stand the answer, don't ask the question rules here.

[mike_bike_kite]

2 hours ago, Tawpie said:

I don't believe the 16S has room for any more batteries but have never seen the insides of one so don't believe me on that for a second.

The "full fat" version of the KS16S has 840Wh but Yoos has a lighter version with half the battery pack. I don't know how easy it is to add the rest of the pack at a later date but it seems worth exploring. It would obviously give more range but it would also allow him to ride for longer at full speed before throttling occurs. It might also be worth checking that the wheel has the latest V2 firmware as that stops the whining noise of earlier firmware and also seems to give the wheel a little more oomph (or so it seemed to me).

[Scottie]

12 hours ago, yoos said:

There is also a particular climb in the forest near my parents country house which is a bit to steep for the 16S.

The 16X can climb a tree!

 

12 hours ago, yoos said:

Anyway, I am still hesitant, spending an inappropriate time on weighing the choices. That' part of the fun I guess  

Someone recently said that they spent less time deciding which house to buy, than the time they spent deciding on a wheel.

I have enjoyed the 16X for two years now, with no issues. It is the one I use when it is time to play ... which is almost everyday.

[yoos]

 

22 hours ago, Hellkitten said:

I’ve seen a number of heavy wheels with knobby tires get pushed up stairs.

I am not certain how practical and reliable that approach is. There is also the problem of going downstairs where the wheel might start to bounce around.

There are two general considerations with the choice: 1) how would the new EUC fit into my current lifestyle/riding style 2) how would it alter my lifestyle and behavior

If I got a Sherman (as an exaggerated example): 1) I see myself still picking the old 16S instead quite often, simply because of the Shermans bulkiness and weight. 2) the Sherman would provoke me to seek ways to go faster and to ride in the street more often. Those are two ridestyle developments I would like to avoid as a life-extension strategy. Riding the street is both dangerous and stressful (both because of the danger and required focus and because of the noise, pollution and the general unpleasentness of being around cars). Perhaps in some 5-10 years Moscow traffic will calm down further, driving will become more civilized, automatic emergency brakes will become the norm and there will be a swarm of PEVs in the streets. That's when I will be comfortable joining the street for good. Until then I only switch to the street when there is no traffic or to use bus lanes (which are legally also available for bicycles and, sadly, for cabs).

So, keeping in mind that I want to keep to bicycle lanes and sidewalks (note that legally EUCs are equivalent to pedestrians here at the moment) I have particular goals in terms of speed: 1) to be faster than rental scooters and have an easy time passing them, 2) to be faster than most bicyclists. Since rental scooters are capped at 25kph, the 16X (or even the V10F) is fully sufficient. The 16S is a bit too close for comfort in the situation where I have to quickly pass a scooter I was following and get back into my bicycle lane in dense bicycle/scooter traffic. 

I understand that I will outgrow the 16X top speed (I will probably set tiltback to 45) but I am comfortable taking it slow and mastering higher speeds slowly. It seems to be the safer way and I enjoy technical riding more than speeding. And being significantly faster than the summer hordes of rental scooters is already enough to routinely farm street cred points (or "sidewalk cred points" ).

 

[TantasStarke]

I have a Kingsong 18XL (same specs as the 16X, just different shell+larger tire), and I have the Nikola AR+ (2700WH version of the Nikola+). I have over 2200mi (3500km) on the 18XL, and just over 30 miles (50km) on my Nikola+ (Damn you winter!) I'd say go for a Nikola if you can find a 2700Wh version if it's not too much more expensive. Being able to ride above the 30mi/50km speed limit of the 18XL is so refreshing, and having the larger battery is always a plus. The Nikola has a great reputation, especially amongst the NYC delivery riders, and should treat you well. I will say I hate the begode pads and are going to be swapping those out asap

[yoos]

If I were in NYC, I would probably look for a wheel that goes 35mph at least, but here in Moscow you would typically need 45mph at least for confident street riding [the citywide limit is 37mph (60kph) but you are only fined at 50mph (80kph). There are also highways within the city with +20kph higher limits]. Thus on large streets 50mph is required to keep up with traffic at all times. Luckily, there are enough sidewalks and bicycle lanes (but still not enough) to commute efficiently (for me personally at least). And on bicycle lanes and sidewalks 30 mph is plenty fast.

I would probably prefer a V12 (with reliable mosfets) over a Nikola AR anyway since I really do not need the range (just extra weight and cost for me). The Nikola has indeed good reputation and is a very balanced wheel, but they have been catching on fire (enough cases for me to avoid begode wheels for now). The ergonomics (trolley, wide handle) also seem poor to me. 

[mike_bike_kite]

Could you go to a meet up and see what the different wheels are like? Do they have those in Moscow? The ergonomics of the Nikola+ are actually very good - I find the trolley handle is excellent for walking it around in supermarkets etc though it does need to be velcroed down to stop it flying open in crashes and the 4 screws in the handle need loctite applied. You lift the Nikola with one hand and it's fine for short carries - TBH I don't think I'd want to carry a 27Kg wheel very far anyway. The 16X handle and general ergonomics are better but the Nik isn't difficult.

Regards speed: I think if you honestly expect to be travelling at 30mph all the time then I'd look at an 18" wheel or larger. The Nik+ will happily do those speeds but it will be quite "exciting" on a 16" wheel. The 16X won't safely allow you anywhere near that speed. A monster will happily cruise at those speeds. Obviously you won't be able to carry it up stairs though. If it was me and I wanted to ride at those speeds then I'd just get a motorbike - EUC crashes at those speeds can hurt and I don't want to lose my charming good looks.

[yoos]

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Could you go to a meet up and see what the different wheels are like? Do they have those in Moscow?

That's the best advice and also the simplest thing to do indeed! Ergonomics is hard to judge from youtube videos . Moscow might have the best test-drive fleet available at ecodrift (they even offer impressive rental options: V5F, V11, 18L, S18, Z10, Sherman).

 

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

if you honestly expect to be travelling at 30mph all the time

No, I didn't mean that -- there are very few places on my routes where I could safely go that fast, I would really need to switch into the street for that. And my routes are already 90% optimal, having a Sherman and taking advantage of the car lanes will not save much time. I meant that 30mph offers enough headroom to feel confident in the bike lane, giving the capabilities to pass others quickly when needed. For slow technical offroad the 16X also seems good enough (except the tire limitations).

Still, both the V11 and S18 are also on my list, I am just afraid that the latest V11 batches might be suffering from bad mosfets. We know that the V12 is plain dangerous to ride at the moment and someone reported increased failure rates with recent V10F batches so the V11 which uses the very same mosfets might also be affected by the bad mosfet batch.

[litewave]

On 11/27/2021 at 3:06 PM, Ewan said:

Hi there, I’m an experienced euc rider and I’m trying to decide on a new wheel. I don’t have any specific requirements for it I just need something that’s fun to ride and has good specs. So far I have sort of liked the look of the Nikola and the 16x, which one should I get or should I bet something else entirely. Thanks

You may have purchased a new wheel by now but my comments might still be of interest to you and others. I have been riding for nearly 6 years and own four Ninebots, including a still busted Z10 (obtaining a replacement shell through AE has been impossible in the past seven months). I stayed with my E+s and still ride them: they have served me very well and are more than adequate for my daily needs - zipping around the local area for short errands. I also know that I will always have a fun, durable and reliable wheel that I can enjoy and maintain for many years, even if there are further trade restrictions or economic limitations.

I considered buying other brands several times in the past but have dismissed Gotway until just recently, when I purchased an MCM5v2 from eWheels.com. I initially balked at the price which has increased over 30% in the past 18 months, but justified the expense because of the added value that eWheels offers: (1) Jason's commitment to the community; (2) eWheel's stellar reputation; and (3) the company's new, improved battery packs for all Begode/Gotway wheels.

I selected the MCM5v2 for its affordable price and improvements over the E+. I want a fun, zippy wheel with integrated trolley and a bit more speed, without all the heft and top-heaviness of the latest designs. The MCM5v2 still uses established and reliable components: 18650 cells and a solid-hub motor: both have a better safety record and reputation than components in Begode's other models.

I also plan to hack the MCM5v2 by adding a larger tire and have future upgrades in mind. I was inspired by a small group of MCM5v2 riders on this site @houseofjob @Denny Paul @Surfling who have paved the way by sharing their knowledge and innovations.

I have a deposit on an S20 and still lust for an Nikola AR+, and am seriously hoping that I will have more free time and space in 2022 to enjoy long rides again.

Edited January 9, 2022 by litewave

[mrelwood]

On 1/6/2022 at 2:36 PM, yoos said:

leaning towards a 16X

How tall are you, and what do you weigh? For a taller and slightly heavier rider the differences between the wheels you mention are large. I’m 193cm and 103kg, and from my point of view:

16X: Feels much smaller than the V12 and especially Nikola. Weighs practically the same as 18XL. I’d limit the top speed at 40km/h. Thoroughly washable: water in, water out.

Nikola: Depending on your legs’ posture, can feel way too chubby. Personal dislikes: ride modes, wavy GW ride feel, humorous non-quality.

V12: Magnificent ride! Quite heavy, although the difference to the V11 feels smaller than expected. I too would wait for an upgraded batch.

18XL: A stellar performer, few but great ride modes, solid quality, long time proven, pricy.

S18: Most units still don’t arrive with a properly working suspension. Prototype feel throughout. Slippery tire. Too wide at the top prevents tight turns for me, just like Nikola.

V10F: Nice ride, more comfy than it ought to be, lightest of the bunch, great leg support. Relaxing.

V11: The only possible choice for me currently. Magnificent ride mode adjustments, great power, now comes with shielded bearings. Suspension elements wear fast in harsh environments, shocks not serviceable.

Veterans, S20, all large GWs: Simply too heavy to lift to a car trunk or workshop table. I really really hope that the “V13” doesn’t fall in this group.

 

 If you are uncertain of choosing the V11, I wouldn’t waste a second more pondering. Go with the 18XL.

[mike_bike_kite]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Nikola: Depending on your legs’ posture, can feel way too chubby. Personal dislikes: ride modes, wavy GW ride feel, humorous non-quality.

Just curious but what aspects of the Nikola are "humorous non-quality"? My own one seems better made than most EUC's out there, it's completely water proof and built like a tank (internally and externally).

[mrelwood]

13 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Just curious but what aspects of the Nikola are "humorous non-quality"? My own one seems better made than most EUC's out there, it's completely water proof and built like a tank (internally and externally).

Controller fixing mechanism (on top board versions), no handle locking, exposed lift switch wiring, picky lift switch touching areas, GlueGate, voltage meter positioning, charging connector cover very difficult to open due to shell design, …

I haven’t spent much time with the Nikola so I probably don’t know the half of it. But I agree, it’s one of the best Gotways. I just don’t think that “but like a tank” oozes quality or practical everyday comforts very much.

[mike_bike_kite]

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Controller fixing mechanism (on top board versions), no handle locking, exposed lift switch wiring, picky lift switch touching areas, GlueGate, voltage meter positioning, charging connector cover very difficult to open due to shell design, …

The very first versions had the board at the top while all the current Nikolas have the control board lower down. It's unclear to me why handle locking is a quality issue - I actually like the way the handle works in practise. GlueGate? I've included a picture of the inside of the Nikola Plus and it looks fairly clean to me. The voltage meter was a new feature on EUCs so having one at all was quite impressive - it does also look rather cool on the side. Having the display electronics on the top of the wheel would make it easier to read but it would also make water ingress more of a worry. I can't say I've had an issue with the charge connector cover and, because it's an 1800Wh battery, at least I don't need to charge it that often.

It looks like fairly serious quality to me  

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by mike_bike_kite

[mrelwood]

 

8 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

It's unclear to me why handle locking is a quality issue

It’s a missing feature that many people need to DIY to fix.

8 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

GlueGate?

The first Nikolas had the thermal pad glued on the mosfets before screwing the mosfets on the thermal block. We assume it spared a little time in assembly. Needless to say, mosfet failures were common. @Rehab1 made a wonderful video testing the thermal properties of the glued thermal pad… 

 

8 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I can't say I've had an issue with the charge connector cover

I don’t know if your fingers are very different from mine or if the design error has been fixed, but I for one couldn’t even get it open in the ~15 seconds I tried. The flap on the cover that was there to be pulled from was unreachable without pointy pliers.

 

8 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

It looks like fairly serious quality to me  

Looks often don’t have anything to do with quality. But if yours serves you well, it serves you well. Every single wheel model has it’s quirks, and choosing the wheel is not as much about choosing which features one wants, but which quirks one can live with.

[fbhb]

6 hours ago, mrelwood said:

"Every single wheel model has it’s quirks, and choosing the wheel is not as much about choosing which features one wants, but which quirks one can live with."

@mrelwood your quote above has to be one of the most accurate descriptions of what we All must bear in mind at EUC purchase time.

Very, very well put sir!