Inmotion V13 Speculation

[Freeforester]

9 hours ago, UPONIT said:

I assume a Master Pro will get a lot more range than a V13 in similar use cases. 4,800 Wh vs. 3100 Wh, with same wattage motors. Not exact, and not comprehensive, but something to compare objectively-ish?

 

7 hours ago, UPONIT said:

"Wait and see" is always my guiding principle. Especially in a speculation thread, it is all just speculation.

It may also be prudent to speculate on the matter of the Master Pro’s somewhat problematic/design-questionable suspension lateral tensioning grubscrew’s built-in tolerance issue, and it’s ‘bearing’🤔🤣 on the likelihood or otherwise of said wheel lasting long enough to actually complete the range-determining mission?

[mrelwood]

 

13 hours ago, UPONIT said:

This 1,000 W motor E-bike paired with a 5,000Wh battery could run full throttle for 5 hours.

The difference to an EUC are probably bigger than you think. The power rating isn’t the maximum power the EUC motor can handle, a peak power is much higher. And in practice it’s all over the place. Also, since the maximum throttle is a very different measure on different wheels, it doesn’t describe anything about normal riding conditions. Just like  Bugatti Veyron fuel consumption at full throttle says nothing about the consumption at regular city riding.

13 hours ago, UPONIT said:

That gives a starting point for a person to fill in their own use case

It doesn’t though. I used to get about 35km per charge on a 840Wh 16S (24Wh/km), and I get about 65km on the 1500Wh V11 23Wh/km) at similar speeds. Full throttle would be 42 and 41 minutes, despite the actual range being almost double on the V11.

13 hours ago, UPONIT said:

on flat roads will use about the same power if I go the same speed.

That’s the key. No matter what the wattage rating is, EUCs will generally use roughly the same amount of power if ridden the same way.

 

13 hours ago, UPONIT said:

With ICE autos, mpg ratings have very specific parameters for testing and making an mpg claim (not that it is perfect). EUCs have no such requirements.

Ah, maybe you are comparing the EUC motor’s wattage to a car’s displacement, and that’s why you think it’s relevant to range?

 It doesn’t work at all like that on an electric motor. The wattage rating tells us about power handling, not consumption. It only tells us how much power the controller can push into the motor for extended periods of time until the motor overheats. Make it cool itself better and the power rating goes up, yet the efficiency remains the same. It would be efficiency that you’d be interested in, but the power rating just doesn’t include that information.

 

8 hours ago, LowFlyingSquirrel said:

The Samsung 35E has a cycle life of 500 cycle to 60% (what happens after 500 cycles?).

After 500 cycles the capacity continues to weaken just as slowly as it has up to that point. Usually it is denoted at 70% or 80%.

8 hours ago, LowFlyingSquirrel said:

So if the battery will need replacing after 500 cycles

Not at all, unless the loss of range bothers you that much. Do take in account that if one gets 100km of range while riding, the batteries at rest are still at around 3.3V per cell. The announced li-ion charge cycles are calculated down to 2.5V per cell, so a full charge cycle would have a range of about 120km. 500 cycles would then get you about 60’000 km.

I haven’t heard of anyone riding one set of EUC batteries past something like 35’000 km.

[UPONIT]

7 hours ago, Freeforester said:

 

It may also be prudent to speculate on the matter of the Master Pro’s somewhat problematic/design-questionable suspension lateral tensioning grubscrew’s built-in tolerance issue, and it’s ‘bearing’🤔🤣 on the likelihood or otherwise of said wheel lasting long enough to actually complete the range-determining mission?

Totally! The Master Pro is NOT on the list of EUCs I'm interested in. I was just comparing.

 

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The power rating isn’t the maximum power the EUC motor can handle, a peak power is much higher.

That’s the key. No matter what the wattage rating is, EUCs will generally use roughly the same amount of power if ridden the same way.

Yes. What I'm trying to do is simplify to a useful comparison. Example: 1000W motor with 1000Wh battery will probably have less range than a 3000W motor with a 4800Wh battery if ridden on same route by same person at same speeds.

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Ah, maybe you are comparing the EUC motor’s wattage to a car’s displacement, and that’s why you think it’s relevant to range?

No. What I said was Miles/Gallon (mpg) ratings are more reliable than EUC Manufacturers claims of range, because mpg ratings specify standardized test conditions by law (in the US at least) and EUC Manufacturers can only give estimates based on their own (varying) criteria.

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It doesn’t work at all like that on an electric motor. The wattage rating tells us about power handling, not consumption. It only tells us how much power the controller can push into the motor for extended periods of time until the motor overheats. Make it cool itself better and the power rating goes up, yet the efficiency remains the same. It would be efficiency that you’d be interested in, but the power rating just doesn’t include that information.

A 3000 W motor is more powerful than a 1000W motor, even if the actual W differs a little from the rated W.Yes?

I think I'll just wave the white flag on this.  I don't disagree with anything you are saying. I just don't think we are discussing the same thing exactly, if that makes sense? The intent is different by a few degrees, which is totally cool, because I'm learning from it anyway. Thank you!

 

[yoos]

11 minutes ago, UPONIT said:

1000W motor with 1000Wh battery will probably have less range than a 3000W motor with a 4800Wh battery if ridden on same route by same person at same speeds.

Yes, but consumption is really determined 90% by the route, person, speed. E.g. a 1000W 1000Wh EUC will have the almost the same range as a 2000W 1000Wh if ridden in the same way. It's just that higher power usually allows higher speeds which most people take advantage of and then you get reduced range due to increased consumption (instead of miles per gallon, wh per km or per mile makes sense for EUC). The one point everyone on the forum seems to agree on is that manufacturer advertised range is almost irrelevant because it represents an extreme use case (light rider at 25kmh or something, i.e. optimized for max range even if it means slowly riding for 10 hours straight). The faster and more powerful an EUC the more the discrepancy between advertised range and typical use case range. If you want an adequate estimate of range, take the battery capacity and divide it by your typical consumption (if you already ride and have the data) or typical consumption of others. You can scour EUC.World for publicly available tours to see typical consumption for various EUC and rider pairings (I don't remember if you need premium to see consumption, but you can also derive it from distance vs battery state. Or you can just divide power by speed to get instant consumption)

[Paul A]

Inmotion V13 Challenger Unboxing & Deep Dive: The Competition Should Copy This

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91.1K subscribers

Dec 20, 2022

 

 

 

[novazeus]

that was a great review, and i want one, maybe next year when i'm living in st john usvi. 

but the full review sb, "we're gonna meet up with some riders so we're gonna have to put it in the trunk of a car", haha. i mean, don't try it. unfortunately, 50 pound sacks of feed is a regula thing for me, but when u have to extend ur arms to clear everything, that's work. 

i think it's great inmotion is trying so hard and i hope they sell a million or more of them. 

safety is also my number 1 concern. too many animals are depending on me.

[LowFlyingSquirrel]

35 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Inmotion V13 Challenger Unboxing & Deep Dive: The Competition Should Copy This

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91.1K subscribers

Dec 20, 2022

 

 

 

I already liked the wheel, but now i want one.

[LowFlyingSquirrel]

5 minutes ago, novazeus said:

but the full review sb, "we're gonna meet up with some riders so we're gonna have to put it in the trunk of a car", haha. i mean, don't try it. unfortunately, 50 pound sacks of feed is a regula thing for me, but when u have to extend ur arms to clear everything, that's work.

Haha i dont get this, in the bedroom 110 lbs is fun size. 🤪

[Unventor]

On 12/12/2022 at 2:25 PM, rebeuc said:

Only if you want to break the law; isn't that a one-way street with the allowed direction being down hill?

I guess somone would test riding it backwards at some point. Just for the legal argument. 

[Eyss]

6 hours ago, Paul A said:

Inmotion V13 Challenger Unboxing & Deep Dive: The Competition Should Copy This

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91.1K subscribers

Dec 20, 2022

 

 

 

Decent overview. 

Sucks about the screws in the pedals but hopefully they're standard size so you can replace them with MTB pedals pins. 

They seem to have the same issue with turning at speed. Keen to see somebody put a street on it to see how it changes the behaviour. 

 

 

[OldFartRides]

Nice unboxing vid. One little quibble : Not really an “aggressive off road knobby”. More enduro / street & trail tire.

 

[UPONIT]

InMotion put up 3 new "how-to" videos re: suspension components on YouTube

https://youtu.be/7AacoRbavZM?list=TLPQMjAxMjIwMjLREDFJtSEdaw

https://youtu.be/gWSFwp-LKGk?list=TLPQMjAxMjIwMjLREDFJtSEdaw

https://youtu.be/Bj7I6ZbGTAk?list=TLPQMjAxMjIwMjLREDFJtSEdaw

[Forwardnbak]

still looking forward to it I think it will be a great wheel. 

[mrelwood]

 

18 hours ago, LowFlyingSquirrel said:

So after 1000 cycle you would expect 20% battery D:

 

So it isn’t perfectly linear at the start, and I couldn’t find a graph that would go very far down.

I’m not sure what’s going on with the graph’s X-scale though, as it seems 10x the expected.

[Uras]

3 hours ago, OldFartRides said:

Nice unboxing vid. One little quibble : Not really an “aggressive off road knobby”. More enduro / street & trail tire.

 

yes, they're awesome tyres. I put them on a little honda cb125 and my partner's 110 scooter years ago. They cornered better than the original tyres. They really opened up our exploring. They're old school trials tyres.

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Uras

[yoos]

9 hours ago, Unventor said:

I guess somone would test riding it backwards at some point. Just for the legal argument. 

This indeed raises a meaningful legal question (off-topic alert!) that will have to be regulated one day -- how is "moving backwards" or "reversing" defined? [It's a meaningful question because you are allowed to go backwards in most urban streets in most of the world, if only to make parallel parking unambiguous]. Is "backwards" controlled by the orientation of your vehicle or by the orientation of most of the riders body? It's even more confusing with onewheels and other side-stance vehicles. 

[LowFlyingSquirrel]

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 

 

So it isn’t perfectly linear at the start, and I couldn’t find a graph that would go very far down.

I’m not sure what’s going on with the graph’s X-scale though, as it seems 10x the expected.

Which battery is that for?

[rebeuc]

3 hours ago, LowFlyingSquirrel said:

Which battery is that for?

That appears to be for the Nissan Leaf EV?

As far as I can tell original source of that image is https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-808-how-to-prolong-lithium-based-batteries

[mrelwood]

Shopping tips and experiences with an EUC moved to here:

 

[conecones]

The first V13 landed in Toronto and the past weekend Smartwheels held a demo day where about two dozen riders got to test it around a big parking lot (also used as makeshift race track during summer months).

General consensus is that the build quality is unmatched, but the weight(feeling while riding) was a shocker to most that haven't ridden heavier & larger wheels such as Abrams. Takes a lot of commitment to move around corners and especially for braking. I tried yanking back on the bars and it did very little to slow down haha...

Personally, I am undecided because it is a little heavy for city commuting. I'm also worried for the next season as a lot of new riders are drawn to Inmotion given their advertising exposure, and this is definitely not a beginner friendly wheel. Riding straight/cruising is one thing, but it will take some serious effort to safely maneuver in city traffic. 

Our local speed demon is going to be doing some high speed tests shortly to get a gauge on top end performance but I imagine it will not disappoint.

https://fb.watch/hxBEqi-KKD/

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by conecones

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, conecones said:

Personally, I am undecided because it is a little heavy for city commuting. I'm also worried for the next season as a lot of new riders are drawn to Inmotion given their advertising exposure, and this is definitely not a beginner friendly wheel. Riding straight/cruising is one thing, but it will take some serious effort to safely maneuver in city traffic. 

Have you ridden an Abrams before? It would be great if you can compare the two.

[conecones]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Have you ridden an Abrams before? It would be great if you can compare the two.

I haven't, but the main tester (Abrams being his favorite wheel even though it cut out on him 3 times ) is liking the V13 and has no issues with the weight, he's the one in the facebook video in an orange vest riding down stairs. Nobody else in our group is crazy enough to owns an Abrams.

That said, the smaller riders still fit great on the V13 since the pedals are much higher so the body doesn't ride high against your leg, whereas on an Abrams it looks comical when a shorter person rode is because they only need to bend their knees 3" to sit 

[Tawpie]

37 minutes ago, conecones said:

I haven't, but the main tester (Abrams being his favorite wheel even though it cut out on him 3 times ) is liking the V13 and has no issues with the weight, he's the one in the facebook video in an orange vest riding down stairs. Nobody else in our group is crazy enough to owns an Abrams.

That said, the smaller riders still fit great on the V13 since the pedals are much higher so the body doesn't ride high against your leg, whereas on an Abrams it looks comical when a shorter person rode is because they only need to bend their knees 3" to sit 

there's a definitely a minimum-you-must-be-taller-than-this-to-ride-this-ride for Challenger though... a hard limit. Trying to stand over that thing will get us shorties where it counts.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Tawpie

[Mango]

2 hours ago, Tawpie said:

there's a definitely a minimum-you-must-be-taller-than-this-to-ride-this-ride for Challenger though... a hard limit. Trying to stand over that thing will get us shorties where it counts.

I like promiscuity. The V13 is sexy.

[Jkay]

Enjoying the learning process on my V12, impressed by the quality of Inmotion, I see a V13 in my future, but for now the V12HT is simply fantastic!