Deleted

[Funky]

28 minutes ago, TantasStarke said:

Also interested to know how much the fine was for, ridiculous. I would've just turned around and left as soon as I saw the checkpoint.

Unfortunately they are in the right, at least by the law. In New York EUC's are classified as motor vehicles, and we're unregistered at that. They could throw the book at us if they really wanted to.

https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws

"Every vehicle operated or driven upon a public
highway which is propelled by any power other than muscular power,
except" and we do not meet any of those exceptions. Hopefully this stops and doesn't get worse, I'd rather not have to run from the cops every day

I would enable "engine" sound and go on streets. Duck you, i got and "engine" can't you hear me exhaust noises??  

Jokes aside, bikes lanes should be legal by default. "Big" difference bike vs euc vs scooter. Even if my country law would change, i would still ride it as regularly - I don't see cops ever, if i would see them.. I would simply take bigger detour around them. Even if they saw me, what will they do? Drive their car on pavement and go after me? I don't ride with cars.. I don't endanger people.. See ya..  

[Planemo]

48 minutes ago, TantasStarke said:

Unfortunately they are in the right, at least by the law. In New York EUC's are classified as motor vehicles, and we're unregistered at that. They could throw the book at us if they really wanted to.

And thats the rub. We can't knowingly do something illegal and then act all surprised and self righteous when we eventually get slapped with a sanction.

And I don't want to sound like a Karen but calling cops 'pieces of shit' and 'pigs' and other derogatory terms has always ruffled my feathers a bit. We need to remember that the cops probably don't even want to be involved with EUC's, but sometimes orders are orders, and so are performance targets. Anger should be directed at the police Inspectors/governors (or whatever they have in the USA) who issue the directives, not the poor saps who have to get involved in dealing with shitty little EUC fines when most cops would much rather be dealing with something more interesting.

I know for a fact that the spates of EUC targeting in the UK is nothing to do with the wishes of the vast majority of officers, and everything to do with...well....being told what to do. And I certainly wouldn't take personal anger against an officer who is just legally doing what he is told to do, even if I don't agree with it.

[VikB]

1 hour ago, TantasStarke said:

Unfortunately they are in the right, at least by the law. In New York EUC's are classified as motor vehicles, and we're unregistered at that. They could throw the book at us if they really wanted to.

Yup. Every time I get on my EUC I know it's illegal and I'm taking my chances. If someone isn't into that get an e-bike! 

[GothamMike]

Were y'all planning another alley-cat race?

[Jswizzy84]

Meanwhile over in New Jersey a woman was run over by a car because she was trying to report traffic accident. 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Jswizzy84

[RockyTop]

20 hours ago, Planemo said:

but sometimes orders are orders, and so are performance targets.

I agree that cops are not the real bad guys and that EUC’s might be illegal in NYC however it is against the law for cops to “follow orders” that illegal. Most COPs on any given day follow more illegal orders than legal. … making them the bad guys. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse for COPs either. 

We need more citizens to challenge $200 fines in court. The government will do whatever it can get away with. 
 

background- Many Sheriff departments try to represent “ the people” in an honest constitutional way and realize how many laws the city police violate.  But “The city passed a law” Yes an illegal law that violates citizens!!!!  

And? What is a performance target? Is it a quota? Because those are illegal. … In most states. 

[Planemo]

9 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

 it is against the law for cops to “follow orders” that illegal. 

I'm not sure you understand my view, so I will try and explain.

In the UK, if an Operation is directed by the Chief Constable that EUC's will be targeted for say 2 weeks and an officer decides that they are not going to do a single EUC sanction, said officer will have a hard time trying to justify why they haven't. The officer saying 'because I don't agree with the law' is not going to wash. Hence my comment 'orders are orders'. Yes, you can decide not to follow an order (just as I didn't when a Chief Inspector told me to arrest someone that I had no knowledge of) but you gotta have justification. Officers can't just decide what laws they personally agree with and what ones they don't, and which ones they will/won't act on. Discretion is always there of course, and thats where officers personal views can come into play (was the rider acting responsibly, wearing gear etc) but as soon as an operation comes into play, much of that discretion is removed from officers because the direction will normally state that any illegal use should be acted on unless there are exceptional circumstances. Riding sensibly/with gear isn't then enough.

9 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

Ignorance of the law is not an excuse for COPs either.

No it's not. So I don't understand why you stated this.

9 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

And? What is a performance target? Is it a quota? Because those are illegal. … In most states. 

I think we are talking the same thing. And I refer to the above post I made. If the officer that decided not to issue sanctions got 'measured' against his colleagues who had issued an average of say 30 each, questions will be asked. If the officer doesn't have good reason (theres that justification again) then performance is deemed low which of course instigates all sorts of things such as potentially not following a lawful order, performance related HR investigations etc etc.

Being 'measured' certainly isn't illegal in the UK, otherwise we would have some truly shite officers wandering around, doing as little as humanly possible.

 

[Scubadragonsan]

This is probably the cop, instead of answering the recent subway shooting, went after the EUC rider. Don't blame him, he doesn't want to get smoke bombed or shot! Too bad, I'd expect NYC is the last place on earth having an EUC rider cited. Really, maybe EUC riders should start bribing them like the pimps, drug dealers, car thieves... San Francisco so far is the best city for any green vehicles. No trouble whatsoever from anyone, except some grouchy old dicks scared of being hit from 1/2 a block away. Time for class action, NYC riders....critical EUC mass, group petition for change...good luck!

[RoboFixIt]

I believe if we just ride incognito, take it easy, don't drive too fast, be chill and practice peaceful noncompliance no one will really bother EUC riders. If that doesn't work I will 100% fight to the very end for EUC

Edited April 15, 2022 by ElectronxCycles
typo fix

[RockyTop]

@Planemo I mostly agree and understand all too well.  I mean no offense and support the police. I will admit that I have issues drawing a line. I don’t like lines and gray areas. Thanks to all of the police that work to serve and protect. You truly do not get paid enough. 

That said, this hole is not deep enough. 

You either break a law or you do not. Police departments DO NOT get to make up laws or procedures that violate a persons rights. Yet they do that all the time. The police department is not a law making body. They are supposed to enforce the law without breaking the law. Special laws apply to cops in the line of duty. I have no problem there. Yet you still do not have the right to violate a citizens rights. 
 

I know how it works. The police department keeps moving the line deeper and deeper into illegal activities. The officers have to follow orders. The good officers that refuse are replaced by bad officers. The good officers that pick their battles and do what they are told?? Are they still good officers if they violate citizens rights? … I understand that it would be worse if they were not there. 
Catch 22?   Doesn’t make it right. 

[Planemo]

12 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

Are they still good officers if they violate citizens rights? …

Not at all, but we're not having a discussion on officers violating citizens rights are we? The topic was about riding EUC in NYC, which I was led to believe is illegal. Maybe I'm wrong?

I don't serve any more, I only did 12 years frontline. In that time though I was thankfully never instructed/ordered to violate anyones rights, and I didn't. In fact I was very careful about knowing the law and when to apply it. I never took anyones liberty lightly, hence my very difficult conversation with the CI informing him that I wasn't going to arrest on his orders and that I would only do it under my decision, when I was satisfied I had the required information. It took a lot for me to disobey such a high ranking officer, it was virtually unheard of amongst us wooden tops. But he knew I was right in what I did, he just wasn't used to anyone questioning him. But I wasn't prepared to make what could have been an unlawful arrest of anyone, let alone on someone elses say so as it's me that takes the can, not him.

[Funky]

I wonder if there are stores, that sell euc's in NYC. That right there would be so backwards.. Having law not allowing them, but same time selling them.  Where's logic? Could be made a case..

Edited April 15, 2022 by Funky

[LanghamP]

5 hours ago, Planemo said:

Discretion is always there of course, and thats where officers personal views can come into play (was the rider acting responsibly, wearing gear etc) but as soon as an operation comes into play, much of that discretion is removed from officers because the direction will normally state that any illegal use should be acted on unless there are exceptional circumstances. Riding sensibly/with gear isn't then enough.

It's NYC. Whenever a driver kills a bicyclist or a pedestrian, the cops immediately fan out and start ticketing bicyclists or pedestrians. That's NYC's idea of an operation.

[RoboFixIt]

1 hour ago, RockyTop said:

The good officers that refuse are replaced by bad officers.

This is what I understand as well @RockyTop I was looking into the application process to become a police officer and I read nothing about "Truth, Peace or Justice". I hear things are being run by the top bidder so if you have all the monopoly money in the world then welcome to corporate America it's all yours. Everything is basically a battle of good vs evil or smart vs dumb in life. Never be tempted to walk to the dark side because it's never the right thing and in time it will be made right. Good will always wins

[Paul A]

hit://www.rideandglide.co.uk/when-will-e-scooters-be-road-legal-in-the-uk-march-22-update/

 

WHEN WILL E-SCOOTERS BE ROAD LEGAL IN THE UK? MARCH 22 UPDATE

The Parliament Under-secretary for the Department of Transport held a debate on the 20th of January 2022. It was regarding the current progress on the e-scooter legislation. 

 

“The final report for the trials is due relatively soon and will include all this information; we are just figuring out how to compile and present it to provide a comprehensive picture of the evidence. We hope to publish it in spring.” 

 

“The Government believe that, with the right regulations, there is potential for significant economic, social, and environmental benefits from light, zero-emission vehicles such as e-scooters.” 

 

“If users switch from cars, there will be environmental benefits—but if they switch from cycling or walking, I agree that there will not be.” 

 

“We are aware that a large number of people have purchased an e-scooter in recent years. That is why we believe it is so important that we conduct these very large trials to gather evidence so that we can inform future policy and any legislative basis for e-scooter users in future.” 

 

“Evidence to date suggests that the rates of injuries are broadly similar when compared with pedal cycles” 

 

“If they are to be legalised, we would consider removing them from the motor vehicle category and instead creating a new bespoke category of vehicles with the appropriate regulatory regime in place.” 

 

“We have looked at other European countries and we will take heed of the way that they have taken forward e-scooters. We are still gathering and analysing the data. We want a safe, proportionate and flexible regulatory framework if we decide that is our way forward.” 

[VikB]

21 hours ago, ElectronxCycles said:

I believe if we just ride incognito, take it easy, don't drive too fast, be chill and practice peaceful noncompliance no one will really bother EUC riders. If that doesn't work I will 100% fight to the very end for EUC

This ^^ is the best approach. Without speed limiters or brakes it will be very hard to convince gov't to legalize EUCs and that's before all the NYC riders trying to jump over small children for YT likes.  Flying under the radar and not attracting attention is far more likely to be successful. 

[TantasStarke]

3 hours ago, VikB said:

This ^^ is the best approach. Without speed limiters or brakes it will be very hard to convince gov't to legalize EUCs and that's before all the NYC riders trying to jump over small children for YT likes.  Flying under the radar and not attracting attention is far more likely to be successful. 

It will definitely delay the inevitable, but EUC is getting more and more popular, and there's no way in hell our 40mph+ EUC will ever be legalized. If they don't quote some BS safety about how they can cut out and injure the rider, or they don't have physical brakes and could hurt a pedestrian in order to outright ban them, they'll be legalized at best with similar speeds to electric scooters or e-bikes.

[alcatraz]

We need more riders. That way they have to find a way. It's only a matter of time.

For the time being. If you see a suspicious one just turn around.

[LanghamP]

6 hours ago, TantasStarke said:

It will definitely delay the inevitable, but EUC is getting more and more popular, and there's no way in hell our 40mph+ EUC will ever be legalized. If they don't quote some BS safety about how they can cut out and injure the rider, or they don't have physical brakes and could hurt a pedestrian in order to outright ban them, they'll be legalized at best with similar speeds to electric scooters or e-bikes.

NYC cops are somewhat different from most public servants in that about 80% come from the suburbs. This has been alluded to many times by USA/NYC StreetBlogs because such cops from such an auto-centric lifestyle wouldn't be sympathetic to alternative forms of transportation. The depth and breadth of NYC cops running safety programs targeting bicyclists and pedestrians by giving those two categories tickets is astonishing, and at many points throughout NYC's history jaywalking was the number one law offense.

Fundamentally, the affluent and the suburbanite isn't sympathetic to public transportation and alternative electrics (note that electric cars are heavily subsidized while all other electrics are heavily taxed), and that shows in NYC law enforcement. NYC is not, and will never be a place where electrics will be legal and welcomed while cars will be; if massive amounts of congestion and its opposite of empty streets via a world-wide pandemic hasn't convinced NYC's elite to open up its streets to electrics, then nothing will.

[GothamMike]

On 4/15/2022 at 12:29 PM, ElectronxCycles said:

I believe if we just ride incognito, take it easy, don't drive too fast, be chill and practice peaceful noncompliance no one will really bother EUC riders. If that doesn't work I will 100% fight to the very end for EUC

Fight to the very end?

[Rikachu]

On 4/14/2022 at 2:03 PM, TantasStarke said:

Also interested to know how much the fine was for, ridiculous. I would've just turned around and left as soon as I saw the checkpoint.

Unfortunately they are in the right, at least by the law. In New York EUC's are classified as motor vehicles, and we're unregistered at that. They could throw the book at us if they really wanted to.

https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws

"Every vehicle operated or driven upon a public
highway which is propelled by any power other than muscular power,
except" and we do not meet any of those exceptions. Hopefully this stops and doesn't get worse, I'd rather not have to run from the cops every day

if you claim a disability and ride slow, then its technically a wheelchair

https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/VAT/130-A

New York Consolidated Laws, Vehicle and Traffic Law - VAT § 130-a. Wheelchair

"An electrically driven mobility assistance device means any wheeled,
electrically powered device designed to enable a person with a

Edited April 17, 2022 by Rikachu

[Rikachu]

On 4/14/2022 at 2:03 PM, TantasStarke said:

Also interested to know how much the fine was for, ridiculous. I would've just turned around and left as soon as I saw the checkpoint.

Unfortunately they are in the right, at least by the law. In New York EUC's are classified as motor vehicles, and we're unregistered at that. They could throw the book at us if they really wanted to.

https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws

"Every vehicle operated or driven upon a public
highway which is propelled by any power other than muscular power,
except" and we do not meet any of those exceptions. Hopefully this stops and doesn't get worse, I'd rather not have to run from the cops every day

if you claim a disability and ride slow, then its technically a wheelchair

https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/VAT/130-A

New York Consolidated Laws, Vehicle and Traffic Law - VAT § 130-a. Wheelchair

"An electrically driven mobility assistance device means any wheeled,
electrically powered device designed to enable a person with a
disability to move from place to place."

ADA 
https://www.ada.gov/opdmd.htm
Credible Assurance

"If the person does not have this documentation, but states verbally that the OPDMD is being used because of a mobility disability, that also must be accepted as credible assurance, unless the person is observed doing something that contradicts the assurance. For example, if a person is observed running and jumping, that may be evidence that contradicts the person's assertion of a mobility disability."

What is a disability?
https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/tools-and-samples/hr-qa/pages/cms_011495.aspx
"An individual with a disability is defined in the act as someone who has "a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities; has a record of such an impairment; or is regarded as having such an impairment.""

Edited April 17, 2022 by Rikachu

[Paul A]

https://business.time.com/2013/10/12/national-epidemic-of-horrible-people-pretending-to-be-disabled/

Oct. 12, 2013

National Epidemic of Horrible People Pretending to Be Disabled

 

This trend probably won’t do much for your faith in humanity: Around the country, an increasing number of ethically challenged human beings are faking disabilities in order to snag good parking spots, cut lines at theme parks, or just bring their dogs into restaurants.

 

Outrage followed the story of a 33-year-old New Yorker named Brett David, who was featured in the New York Post over the summer.

David bragged about bringing his fake “therapy dog” named Napoleon into movie theaters, restaurants, nightclubs, Whole Foods, Starbucks, and more mainly because “I was sick of tying up my dog outside,” as he put it. “Sometimes, they’ll give me a hassle and say bring the papers next time, but for five bucks, you order [a patch] off eBay, and it works 90 percent of the time,” he explained.

 

People like David aren’t the only ones pretending to be disabled to take advantage of special perks. In late September, the Walt Disney Company felt compelled to change its disabled guest policy at theme parks partly due to “abuse of the system.”

The announcement came after reports surfaced that wealthy guests were paying wheelchair-riding tour guides top dollar so that the group could use the line-skipping privileges granted to the disabled at Disney theme parks.

 

Meanwhile, over the years, police around the U.S. periodically engage in sweeps to round up drivers fraudulently using handicapped parking passes, and apparently it’s pretty easy to snag people abusing the system. 

[Planemo]

8 hours ago, Paul A said:

This trend probably won’t do much for your faith in humanity

As if I needed any more ammo for the subject of humanity 

It's the same everywhere - selfishness is a disease - once one person does it, others will follow. It's like driving as well - whether it's London, NYC or any other busy area - you have to drive like an arsehole to get anywhere.

I refuse to lower myself to being an arsehole to go about my daily life. I will simply live somewhere else (likewise I won't attend theme parks if waiting times are crazy).

The vast majority of the population will do whatever it takes to make their own life easier/cheaper whatever the repercussions for their fellow humans. Faking disabilities and benefits fraud are right down there in the low-life scumbag scale.

[Triexy]

On 4/14/2022 at 8:43 PM, Funky said:

I would enable "engine" sound and go on streets. Duck you, i got and "engine" can't you hear me exhaust noises??  

Jokes aside, bikes lanes should be legal by default. "Big" difference bike vs euc vs scooter. Even if my country law would change, i would still ride it as regularly - I don't see cops ever, if i would see them.. I would simply take bigger detour around them. Even if they saw me, what will they do? Drive their car on pavement and go after me? I don't ride with cars.. I don't endanger people.. See ya..  

In germany they did that they turn arround crossed one street to get one euc driver