RagingGrandpa Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 https://www.facebook.com/groups/ElectricUnicycle/permalink/4072519469512652/ Quote I don't have personal experience with surface-mount fuses... when they melt, do they typically desolder themselves too?? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 We need Marty's overheat hill test of the V12 asap! 12 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said: surface-mount fuses What's the point of a fuse on the board? Might as well not have one and use the mosfets as a "fuse". Same result: you need a new board because the old one is broken. I don't get it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redfoxdude Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: What's the point of a fuse on the board? Might as well not have one and use the mosfets as a "fuse". Same result: you need a new board because the old one is broken. I don't get it. It may be a PTC (resettable fuse) which would start functioning again after the board is given time to cool down, but it's no good if it breaks off the board like this case. 20 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said: I don't have personal experience with surface-mount fuses... when they melt, do they typically desolder themselves too?? It definitely should NOT Edited June 21, 2021 by redfoxdude 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingGrandpa Posted June 21, 2021 Author Share Posted June 21, 2021 29 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: What's the point of a fuse on the board? Might as well not have one and use the mosfets as a "fuse". If the board is overloaded and fails, it's much nicer to have it fail open-circuit instantly, than "burn itself open." EUC popcorn is no fun: you can't transport the stricken EUC until you open it up and manually remove connections 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjam.nyc Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 Disappointing to see the v12 fail like this.. But i guess the good news is other wheels completely burned up on that same hill after 1 or 2 attempts. I am not shocked the 16x did fine. The later batches of that wheel are proving to be pretty reliable. I guess the lesson learned is, on some of these wheels spun for speed.. Don't try and push steep hill climbs, if you do.. keep a very close eye on the numbers. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawnei Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 Might be a firmware tuning thing, if you remember Adam Wrong Way hill climb test of the V12 it cut the motor and beeped, maybe they tuned it to not shut down so early but instead made the tolerance too high so it fails instead, maybe fixed in a future update? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nostris Posted June 26, 2021 Share Posted June 26, 2021 All the reviewers do stuff to a wheel that no ordinary owner would. They test them to try to see at what point it fails. I guess INMOTION will have seen this and will fix the issue. It doesn’t look too good for them when their new latest and greatest fails on YouTube, so everyone gets to see! The tester did let the V12 roll down the hill and crash a few times…It can’t really do any wheel much good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarlW Posted June 26, 2021 Share Posted June 26, 2021 It seems like product weaknesses should not have to be discovered by YouTube personalities. Members of this forum potentially could have something to say about this dynamic of companies releasing new products that have not been given thorough testing. Since it has been seen many times over that new model releases have not had sufficient testing, why are customers so eager to buy them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post smiba Posted June 26, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 26, 2021 On 6/21/2021 at 9:46 PM, RagingGrandpa said: I don't have personal experience with surface-mount fuses... when they melt, do they typically desolder themselves too?? Honestly I don't understand how a fuse does not blow, but desolder itself! At that point you'd assume the fuse would've become hot enough to blow Does anyone know what kind of fuse is supposed to be there? (Rating) -- I wonder if it maybe had a bad connection? On 6/21/2021 at 10:01 PM, meepmeepmayer said: Might as well not have one and use the mosfets as a "fuse". Same result: you need a new board because the old one is broken. I don't get it. Just soldering on a new fuse is "relatively" easy, but if you blow the mosfets you absolutely need a new board. When you blow them you may also kill the controller or cause some other bad short like for example in the motor. I wouldn't trust the circuitry after such a mosfet blew, you don't know if maybe some components have (hidden) internal damage that will suddenly cause it to act up while on the wheel. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie Posted June 27, 2021 Share Posted June 27, 2021 On 6/21/2021 at 4:01 PM, meepmeepmayer said: We need Marty's overheat hill test of the V12 asap! @Marty Backe Agreed. I have much more confidence in a wheel after it passes that test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted June 27, 2021 Share Posted June 27, 2021 7 hours ago, smiba said: Honestly I don't understand how a fuse does not blow, but desolder itself! At that point you'd assume the fuse would've become hot enough to blow Since fuses are analogue devices, they always have a specific ramp up time. A 30A fuse will let 50A through for a very short while, and 40A for a little longer until it blows. If the current peak is extremely high, some damage can happen despite the fuse. Not sure if that’s what happened here though. Regarding the V12, Mickey EVX commented on WhatsApp on a video where he was deliberately able to kick a V12 demo unit dead at standstill. He said that the production version he also has can not be toasted the same way, and that it is much more stable at zero speed torque. He even showed a video where he tried to do the same thing on the product version, and it only beeped and warned about overpower. I think the production version will probably not have the toaster issue. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted June 27, 2021 Share Posted June 27, 2021 On 6/21/2021 at 9:46 PM, RagingGrandpa said: don't have personal experience with surface-mount fuses... when they melt, do they typically desolder themselves too?? They seem a bit small - i just looked up a 30A 125VDC smd fuse. They are ~10mm long. If these are for lower voltages they cannot reliably cut off the arc. So this could maybe lead to desoldering while melting? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarpMudd Posted July 1, 2021 Share Posted July 1, 2021 (edited) I really wanted to like this wheel, but 3 things are turning me off as an upgrade from the 16X: 1. Top heaviness. 2. Really bad breaking. 3. Lack of hill climbing ability. Edited July 1, 2021 by HarpMudd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingGrandpa Posted July 1, 2021 Author Share Posted July 1, 2021 @HarpMudd, say it with me: "There's no such thing as a perfect wheel" Speed vs Torque.V12 and 16X have the same motor design, except that 16X uses four turns per pole, and V12 uses three. If you want to ride safely at 30mph, 16X is a very bad choice. V12 is a HS version of 16X with a slightly larger battery. And if you wanted an offroad hillclimber that's even more capable than 16X, you know the answer... (18" tire with C38 motor) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarpMudd Posted July 2, 2021 Share Posted July 2, 2021 @RagingGrandpa Yeah I get it, no need to explain. There is a lot of great things about the V12. The only way to solve each problem is to have a quiver of wheels! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal Farrenkopf Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 The soldering of those large capacitors is bad. The solder didn’t flow though the plated through holes. That means that the Caps have more series resistance and hence less smoothing of spikes of current. Could be a factor here. It could also cause the traces to get hot because of the plated through hole resistance and high current location. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal Farrenkopf Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 Having 2 fuses in parallel could also be a problem if one of them is weak and blows leaving the other one to pop at half the intended load. Cutout at unintended current with no warning beeps or alerts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 4 hours ago, Hal Farrenkopf said: The soldering of those large capacitors is bad If that is really true and not only some kind of photo/reflection artifact it's really bad and will lead to failure quite fast. But imho the "capacitor design' of the v12 is one of the best of all the actual wheels of which i've seen the motherboards: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawpie Posted July 10, 2021 Share Posted July 10, 2021 (edited) huh. MOSFETs are second assembly hand soldered. Probably no other way given the design, but that's not a configuration that gives me confidence in IM's ability to produce a reliable board. You can see the solderer had trouble, they've dragged solder up the MOSFET legs... the traces they're soldering to are (hopefully) beefy 2oz copper and that makes for an excellent heatsink. I can't really see the filleting, but if you can't get the tip of your iron in there properly, you're not going to make good joints. If you crank up the heat in the tip, you risk delaminating the plated through hole or causing heat damage to the MOSFET... it's a devil's setup. If you're carrying solder on the tip of your iron to the joint… Edited July 10, 2021 by Tawpie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUC_user Posted July 11, 2021 Share Posted July 11, 2021 On 7/9/2021 at 8:21 PM, Tawpie said: huh. MOSFETs are second assembly hand soldered. Probably no other way given the design, but that's not a configuration that gives me confidence in IM's ability to produce a reliable board. You can see the solderer had trouble, they've dragged solder up the MOSFET legs... the traces they're soldering to are (hopefully) beefy 2oz copper and that makes for an excellent heatsink. I can't really see the filleting, but if you can't get the tip of your iron in there properly, you're not going to make good joints. If you crank up the heat in the tip, you risk delaminating the plated through hole or causing heat damage to the MOSFET... it's a devil's setup. If you're carrying solder on the tip of your iron to the joint… Solder waves do exist... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawpie Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 6 hours ago, EUC_user said: Solder waves do exist... "Second assembly" is a term from the olden days when you actually did use wave soldering. Wave soldering requires you to run the board over a 'wave' of molten solder, and that pretty much limits you to having components on only 1 side because almost nothing likes being immersed in a pool of molten solder (which is the bottom side of the board). Stuff you wanted on the bottom side had to be hand soldered after wave soldering, and that process was called second assembly. In this case, the MOSFETs would likely be mounted to the heatsink first, then soldered to the board by hand. But the gap is narrow etc. etc., so it's not easy to make quality joints. If they hand solder the MOSFETs before mounting to the heatsink, I'd be even more worried—getting them flush to the heatsink when they're already pinned in place would be near impossible in rate production. Perhaps they'll come up with tooling to allow this to go together better, I certainly hope so. It wouldn't be a complex tool though, they should get it figured out in the next few batches. But meantime, this looks like a lurking issue to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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