Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[novazeus]

1 hour ago, Rawnei said:

It blows my mind that you are riding with the stock non-wheel sliders, I think you should upgrade asap, not only is it a great upgrade in how suspension feels the original sliders will wear down the paint inside the channels.

But glad you like it anyway, as I've been saying forever it's a very nice wheel to ride.

king song sent me these ball bearing slider kits with no retainers for the inner race of the bearings. 

on a high speed bearing like a tail rotor on a rc heli, i would red loctite i teeny tiny drop so the inner race wouldn't spin. i wonder if king song is experimenting with the set they sent me without any form of retention.

without opening up, idk, that's why i'm asking. that endplay with the inner race not bound, might be an improvement. and should i replace those linkage bolts with hou's like wrongway suggested. 

i'm fine with my pinned non pro motor, i doubt the expense of a motor swap in flat florida isn't prudent. but the sliders and linkage swap looks easy and inexpensive. 

[Rawnei]

1 minute ago, novazeus said:

king song sent me these ball bearing slider kits with no retainers for the inner race of the bearings. 

on a high speed bearing like a tail rotor on a rc heli, i would red loctite i teeny tiny drop so the inner race wouldn't spin. i wonder if king song is experimenting with the set they sent me without any form of retention.

without opening up, idk, that's why i'm asking. that endplay with the inner race not bound, might be an improvement. and should i replace those linkage bolts with hou's like wrongway suggested. 

i'm fine with my pinned non pro motor, i doubt the expense of a motor swap in flat florida isn't prudent. but the sliders and linkage swap looks easy and inexpensive. 

That's their old design, looks like the version where you have to hammer or force the wheels onto there, definitely don't use loctite or you won't get them out.

[novazeus]

12 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

That's their old design, looks like the version where you have to hammer or force the wheels onto there, definitely don't use loctite or you won't get them out.

they just slip on and i'll have to be careful aligning the channels so the bearings don't fall off during re-assembly.

btw, for red loctite or epoxy, a stategically placed soldering iron works best. use to remove broken shafts from clubheads that way. the epixy would eventually go "poof" and a little white smoke would emit. then u could easily pull off the head. 

what about the linkage bolts? anything else i shoukd look at inside?

Edited November 8, 2023 by novazeus

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Rawnei said:

It blows my mind that you are riding with the stock non-wheel sliders, I think you should upgrade asap, not only is it a great upgrade in how suspension feels

I know you mean well.

My pre-purchase S22 plan was to put in Hou Ningning roller sliders.

However, I wanted to experiment a little and see how far can I go to with fine tuning.

I have watch videos of S22's suspension equipped with roller sliders.

I noticed that some did not actually worked that well. 

Even with stock sliders right now, I find that the amount of stiction left is minimal. Some of the early sliders that I have seen did not seem to be working better than what I have now.

However, I have watched a video where someone was able to make the suspension action of an S22 butter smooth by using Hou Ningning roller sliders.

1 hour ago, Rawnei said:

the original sliders will wear down the paint inside the channels.

Is it paint or is it anodized? In any case, I am monitoring the situation. I know that the trolley handle rails are painted black. Those rails are just black paint over the original finish. So of course the paint has already started to peel off.

1 hour ago, Rawnei said:

But glad you like it anyway, as I've been saying forever it's a very nice wheel to ride.

Incidentally, have you found a wheel that rides better than the S22?

 

[Rawnei]

23 minutes ago, novazeus said:

they just slip on and i'll have to be careful aligning the channels so the bearings don't fall off during re-assembly.

btw, for red loctite or epoxy, a stategically placed soldering iron works best. use to remove broken shafts from clubheads that way. the epixy would eventually go "poof" and a little white smoke would emit. then u could easily pull off the head. 

what about the linkage bolts? anything else i shoukd look at inside?

I doubt you are jumping your wheel? So don't really have to worry about that.

7 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I know you mean well.

My pre-purchase S22 plan was to put in Hou Ningning roller sliders.

However, I wanted to experiment a little and see how far can I go to with fine tuning.

I have watch videos of S22's suspension equipped with roller sliders.

I noticed that some did not actually worked that well. 

Even with stock sliders right now, I find that the amount of stiction left is minimal. Some of the early sliders that I have seen did not seem to be working better than what I have now.

However, I have watched a video where someone was able to make the suspension action of an S22 butter smooth by using Hou Ningning roller sliders.

Is it paint or is it anodized? In any case, I am monitoring the situation. I know that the trolley handle rails are painted black. Those rails are just black paint over the original finish. So of course the paint has already started to peel off.

Incidentally, have you found a wheel that rides better than the S22?

 

Even if you think it's good now it's like night and day compared.

It's paint and will wear down.

Sherman S and Patton feels better than the S22, smoother suspension and more torque, but that doesn't mean S22 feels bad, the lower weight on the S22 is a positive factor, they all have their characteristics and feel good in different ways.

[novazeus]

22 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

doubt you are jumping your wheel? So don't really have to worry about that.

that's great to know, if i have it apart i'm sure i can wait and order parts if i think they are needed. no, no jumps, but my pasures are like washboards. 

the best suspension wheel i've yet to ride in really rough terrain, suspension wise goung straight, kinda gotta be paul bunyan on ur tight turns, is this may 2023 v13 i bought. 

i wanna get a lynx just to see if it compares. i know from a weight geometry standpoint it should handle better, but i'll miss the v13 stock knobby diameter. 

anyway, since i'm determined to make euc's a way of point a to point b travel in florida, the perfect place for them, as opposed to mountain trails which we are devoid of, i'm gonna put a deposit on a lynx and wait and see what it does to marty and or kuji, and if they survive, and if jason can get them to put the michelin street pilot 2 tire on it for their "street" version(or pasture version for rock hard pastures), i'll happily but it and beta test it in my pastures in january. much less chance of dying in the pature than on my road. 

so since u own leaperkims, how is the safety and build quality? what do u expect the lnyx to be like? will u buy it?

i keep saying it wrong, it's michelin pilot street 2

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by novazeus

[techyiam]

53 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Even if you think it's good now it's like night and day compared.

I have heard from many with the same sentiment. So I am aware. However, small bump compliance is already more than good enough for me. Let say this. My S22 can go over the same edge bump on a road, at similar speeds, and would feel cushier than me driving a number of different cars over the same edge bump.

I have test ridden a Sherman-S over a large speed bump, although the compliance was good, the sensation was still I went over a speed bump. I believe on my S22 in its current tuning, I could go over the same speed bump and would have less certainty that I rode over a speed bump.

53 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Sherman S and Patton feels better than the S22, smoother suspension and more torque, but that doesn't mean S22 feels bad, the lower weight on the S22 is a positive factor, they all have their characteristics and feel good in different ways.

I like riding the Patton.

With regards to the Sherman-S, for the short time that I was on it, the acceleration and braking felt weaker than my S22 in its current form, especially in braking. Braking on my S22 is strong. It is night and day different from before.

Based on my limited experience, my impression is that Sherman S have the most butter smooth suspension. However, depending on how it is sprung and damped, the suspension action can vary a lot.

My S22 has only a 300 lb spring, which is way under sprung. But I put in a lot of preload. And I have set both compression and rebound damping to the lowest setting.

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by techyiam

[Rawnei]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

I have heard from many with the same sentiment. So I am aware. However, small bump compliance is already more than good enough for me. Let say this. My S22 can go over the same edge bump on a road, at similar speeds, and would feel cushier than me driving a number of different cars over the same edge bump.

I have test ridden a Sherman-S over a large speed bump, although the compliance was good, the sensation was still I went over a speed bump. I believe on my S22 in its current tuning, I could go over the same speed bump and would have less certainty that I rode over a speed bump.

I'm sure it wasn't tuned to your body weight, Sherman S has the best small bump compliance and suspension response out of all the wheels on the market.

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

With regards to the Sherman-S, for the short time that I was on it, the acceleration and braking felt weaker than my S22 in its current form, especially in braking. Braking on my S22 is strong. It is night and day different from before.

As I've said many times before acceleration and braking comes from pad setup and foot position, right vs wrong settings is like night and day.

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

Based on my limited experience, my impression is that Sherman S have the most butter smooth suspension. However, depending on how it is sprung and damped, the suspension action can vary a lot.

Tuning suspension is essential, hopping on someones else's wheel won't really show the true potential and a lot of people don't even bother to tune the suspension which is mind blowing to me.

[Rawnei]

2 hours ago, novazeus said:

so since u own leaperkims, how is the safety and build quality? what do u expect the lnyx to be like? will u buy it?

Since I own 3 good suspension wheels that I'm happy with it doesn't make sense for me to get another wheel, otherwise it would be very interesting.

LeaperKim quality is overall very high, both Patton and Lynx has PWM based tiltback which is the best safety feature for riding that you can have. If you are talking about electronics safety they take that serious, all components have big margins, no skimping on components, electronic problems with LK wheels is rare and they have been improving and iterating since the Sherman instead of regressing.

[techyiam]

5 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Sherman S has the best small bump compliance and suspension response out of all the wheels on the market.

That is my understanding too for a stock setup.

6 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

As I've said many times before acceleration and braking comes from pad setup and foot position, right vs wrong settings is like night and day.

That is why I was surprised. I was using the same pad, pad setup and foot positioning. The only difference in pad setup was only a 1 degree or less of rotation. It was a very very minor tweak. My feet are centered on the pedal. My heels hang off the rear of the pedals by the same amount of overhang at the front of the pedal. In my case, it's due to the wheel. And I made no changes to firmware settings.

17 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Tuning suspension is essential, hopping on someones else's wheel won't really show the true potential and a lot of people don't even bother to tune the suspension which is mind blowing to me.

It doesn't apply in this case since my S22 was tuned outside the norm to be extra soft utilizing the full suspension travel for comfort and not for jumps nor drops. And the Sherman-S that I was on was for a rider who enjoy seated riding primarily on streets. I think he had a 62 lbs spring in it. The suspension of his Sherman-S felt supple to be sure.

[NErider]

On 11/8/2023 at 12:01 PM, techyiam said:

I have heard from many with the same sentiment. So I am aware. However, small bump compliance is already more than good enough for me. Let say this. My S22 can go over the same edge bump on a road, at similar speeds, and would feel cushier than me driving a number of different cars over the same edge bump.

I have test ridden a Sherman-S over a large speed bump, although the compliance was good, the sensation was still I went over a speed bump. I believe on my S22 in its current tuning, I could go over the same speed bump and would have less certainty that I rode over a speed bump.

I like riding the Patton.

With regards to the Sherman-S, for the short time that I was on it, the acceleration and braking felt weaker than my S22 in its current form, especially in braking. Braking on my S22 is strong. It is night and day different from before.

Based on my limited experience, my impression is that Sherman S have the most butter smooth suspension. However, depending on how it is sprung and damped, the suspension action can vary a lot.

My S22 has only a 300 lb spring, which is way under sprung. But I put in a lot of preload. And I have set both compression and rebound damping to the lowest setting.

 

Am I reading this right? You are still on KS sliders? And not any form of roller suspension? Your "small bump compliance" is definitely not good enough. It is literally a different wheel with rollers.  If that is the case, you are currently riding an engineering/design mistake. And would absolutely appreciate the upgrade once you fix it. 

[Crab]

2023 update, just rolled 4000mi yesterday on the s22. I did have the bearings on the pro motor fail at 1200mi, and 40t battery packs brick after a bms update. Jason ended up sending me another set just out of the 6mo warranty,  can't say enough about their service. All in all its been great, 90% on pavement and I prefer about 30mph max although I have hit 35 a few times. Range could be better, I might spring for the 50s packs when available or just get a new machine.

[novazeus]

1 minute ago, Crab said:

2023 update, just rolled 4000mi yesterday on the s22. I did have the bearings on the pro motor fail at 1200mi, and 40t battery packs brick after a bms update. Jason ended up sending me another set just out of the 6mo warranty,  can't say enough about their service. All in all its been great, 90% on pavement and I prefer about 30mph max although I have hit 35 a few times. Range could be better, I might spring for the 50s packs when available or just get a new machine.

u know i own it. i tried it in my pastures a couple of times, bone stock amateur s22, and nope, not built for that. 

on the other hand, almost 1800 miles on the first v13, and a few hundred on the one i just got and one incoming this week. i don't abuse my wheels, but my terrain, where i need to go, is rough. it kills me to ride in my backhoe tractor. like in my pastures, with my jeep, that's when u drop from 38psi, pavement tire pressure, down to 25psi, for comfort, u don't need the added traction, but omg, humans that weren't born and raised on a 1200 acre cattle ranch have no idea how much fuel u waste slow crawling around looking at ur animals. if my jeep was running now, just going around this dinky 325 acres would easily burn $5 in gas, for 6 miles or less. Bob loved it but ridiculously expensive. plus the modern electric unicycles, specifically the v13, and hoping the lynx, are perfect for my rock hard pastures. finally a great use for this dirt because it sucks at growing grass for the cows.

i can't imagine a wheel getting or being better than the v13 anytime soon, for what it is. 

[Crab]

Funny thing, I've only met one guy here on the v13, most everyone is on the SS or CP and ex30. Glad it works for you, SS is hard to beat and probably my next one.

[novazeus]

13 minutes ago, Crab said:

Funny thing, I've only met one guy here on the v13, most everyone is on the SS or CP and ex30. Glad it works for you, SS is hard to beat and probably my next one.

it depends what u want in a wheel. i mean, at 1000 miles i was just getting dialed in. and the strength it takes to turn it in the pasture is crazy. but i looked at that as being, "challenging" and making me a better rider. if u can ride a v13 with a michelin pilot street 2 on it inflated to max pressure, u can probably ride any wheel out there. once u master the v13, and i'm over 2000 miles combined, and still find it challenging and not boring. maybe it's the gotway/begode rider mentality and not their wheels, idk but since 2017, i've seen lots of failures and to me, not being an electronics guy, but knowing good electronics wiring when i see it, and i haven't seen that in their wheels. just like there are all different cars and trucks, at this stage of the wheel game, it's just exposing the public to them so we don't get lumped in with scooters and banned everywhere. they've banned skating in the park near me. 

i have an incoming lynx in january if jason is accurate, so i'll be able to teet the fastace suspension compared with the v13. s22 has to be reworked with the ball bearing kit they sent me. my amateur isn't very strong. fine little pavement wheel, but underpowered in the pastures. i'm hoping the lynx fitted with the michelin will be a better pasture cruiser. the v13 does great, but hard to turn with this undulating pasture terrain. 

yeah, i think the v13's learning curve put alot of people off. omg, if they had gotten it with the michelin, they'd probably sell it the next day. 

[Julian-NZ]

Has anybody out there replaced the suspension bolts on their S22?

My no-pro S22 has just passed 5500km (3400miles) and after watching Mr WrongWay breaking his I'm a bit worried. I'm nowhere near as good as he is but I spend most of my time on steep rocky tracks. A broken bolt whilst riding would really suck!

[Rawnei]

2 hours ago, Julian-NZ said:

Has anybody out there replaced the suspension bolts on their S22?

My no-pro S22 has just passed 5500km (3400miles) and after watching Mr WrongWay breaking his I'm a bit worried. I'm nowhere near as good as he is but I spend most of my time on steep rocky tracks. A broken bolt whilst riding would really suck!

If you don't jump your wheel I don't think you have to worry, if you do it's not difficult to swap them, you can search for new ones yourself or buy them from Houningning or AlienRides (maybe other sources also? I don't know).

[litewave]

On 11/8/2023 at 2:15 PM, Rawnei said:

...

As I've said many times before acceleration and braking comes from pad setup and foot position, right vs wrong settings is like night and day.

...

You make some good points, but ^^^ this comment is exaggerated. Pads and proper foot position do make a significant difference, but the controller and motor also play a big part, as well as the mass of the wheel. I would also say that improper foot/body position is the major cause of wobbles.

 

5 hours ago, Julian-NZ said:

Has anybody out there replaced the suspension bolts on their S22?

My no-pro S22 has just passed 5500km (3400miles) and after watching Mr WrongWay breaking his I'm a bit worried. I'm nowhere near as good as he is but I spend most of my time on steep rocky tracks. A broken bolt whilst riding would really suck!

Man, I wish you would post some photos or videos of riding your S22 in the bush. 

[Rawnei]

2 hours ago, litewave said:

You make some good points, but ^^^ this comment is exaggerated. Pads and proper foot position do make a significant difference, but the controller and motor also play a big part, as well as the mass of the wheel. I would also say that improper foot/body position is the major cause of wobbles.

It's been explained many times, the only thing a wheel can do is spin the motor, can we agree on that?

And the main goal of the wheel is to spin the motor to keep the rider upright so the rider doesn't fall, can we agree on that also?

So what then affects braking and acceleration? The wheel responding to the rider leaning, that's it.

A stronger controller and motor won't suddenly make a wheel accelerate faster by itself, that would mean the rider is not in control, if the motor spins faster than the rider leans balance is lost and rider falls.

What can a stronger controller and motor bring to the table? It can allow the rider to lean more without worrying about overpowering the wheel but the leaning which affects acceleration and braking is still up to the rider. Now questions regarding this subject are seldom "how easy is it to overpower this wheel" but rather how easy or difficult it is accelerating and braking, which again it's up to the rider.

Now you can throw pedal modes into the mix, what do they bring to the table? They just change how the pedals behave and can give a specific feeling or feedback to the rider to help them lean more, similar to what adjusting pads would do, they are both there to help you the rider gain leverage over the wheel to lean more and motor still just responds to that.

Re pads, for example if your pads are too close it will hinder your leaning, if they are too far away they won't provide enough leverage or even worse give the rider a feeling of falling off. Optimal pad setup and foot position will let you leverage the wheel and open up for more leaning, less optimal pad setup will instead hinder you. And then we're not even considering other scenarios such as navigating the wheel in technical terrain, jumping, etc, which all of them will be affected by your pad setup.

All of this boils down to the rider having good leverage over the wheel and leaning hard enough.

[Tomallo]

1 hour ago, Rawnei said:

It's been explained many times, the only thing a wheel can do is spin the motor, can we agree on that?

And the main goal of the wheel is to spin the motor to keep the rider upright so the rider doesn't fall, can we agree on that also?

So what then affects braking and acceleration? The wheel responding to the rider leaning, that's it.

A stronger controller and motor won't suddenly make a wheel accelerate faster by itself, that would mean the rider is not in control, if the motor spins faster than the rider leans balance is lost and rider falls.

What can a stronger controller and motor bring to the table? It can allow the rider to lean more without worrying about overpowering the wheel but the leaning which affects acceleration and braking is still up to the rider. Now questions regarding this subject are seldom "how easy is it to overpower this wheel" but rather how easy or difficult it is accelerating and braking, which again it's up to the rider.

Now you can throw pedal modes into the mix, what do they bring to the table? They just change how the pedals behave and can give a specific feeling or feedback to the rider to help them lean more, similar to what adjusting pads would do, they are both there to help you the rider gain leverage over the wheel to lean more and motor still just responds to that.

Re pads, for example if your pads are too close it will hinder your leaning, if they are too far away they won't provide enough leverage or even worse give the rider a feeling of falling off. Optimal pad setup and foot position will let you leverage the wheel and open up for more leaning, less optimal pad setup will instead hinder you. And then we're not even considering other scenarios such as navigating the wheel in technical terrain, jumping, etc, which all of them will be affected by your pad setup.

All of this boils down to the rider having good leverage over the wheel and leaning hard enough.

I agree that foot position and pad placement matter, but about the motor and controller having an impact - surely there's also software in play here? Otherwise all the options and settings to tune the wheel in apps wouldn't be able to make such a difference in ride feeling, I assume

[Rawnei]

1 minute ago, Tomallo said:

I agree that foot position and pad placement matter, but about the motor and controller having an impact - surely there's also software in play here? Otherwise all the options and settings to tune the wheel in apps wouldn't be able to make such a difference in ride feeling, I assume

That's the thing, it just affects how it feels nothing else.

If you disagree please explain why.

[Tomallo]

5 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

That's the thing, it just affects how it feels nothing else.

If you disagree please explain why.

Ah, fair enough I guess

[techyiam]

5 hours ago, litewave said:

I would also say that improper foot/body position is the major cause of wobbles.

In my experience, on wheels that have a tendency to wobble, what you said holds true. There are a number of techniques that could help tone down the wobbles. 

However, one can also work on the wheel itself, to make the tendency less.

The V12 is a perfect example of a wheel that has a tendency to wobble.  But through firmware settings, pedal height adjustments, and riding techniques, those wobbles can be tamed.

The S22 is an example of a wheel that doesn't have a tendency to wobble. I rode it with different feet placements, and various other riding styles,and I have never experienced a wobble.

[okvp]

20 minutes ago, techyiam said:

In my experience, on wheels that have a tendency to wobble, what you said holds true. There are a number of techniques that could help tone down the wobbles. 

However, one can also work on the wheel itself, to make the tendency less.

The V12 is a perfect example of a wheel that has a tendency to wobble.  But through firmware settings, pedal height adjustments, and riding techniques, those wobbles can be tamed.

The S22 is an example of a wheel that doesn't have a tendency to wobble. I rode it with different feet placements, and various other riding styles,and I have never experienced a wobble.

I don't understand how firmware settings can have any affects to the wobbles? However the tire has a lot of effects on both wobble and train tracking, a knobby is not as sensitive as a road tire, I have experience with both (Michelin City grip 2 and Shinko SR241).

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, okvp said:

I don't understand how firmware settings can have any affects to the wobbles? However the tire has a lot of effects on both wobble and train tracking, a knobby is not as sensitive as a road tire, I have experience with both (Michelin City grip 2 and Shinko SR241).

It is very obvious on the V12. I have been confirming this over a 2 year period in which I have play with different firmware versions, and multitudes of settings. The wobbles can altered from death wobbles to slight wobble tendencies. My V12 is all stock except for tire and inner tube. And I have added the Inmotion branded honeycomb pedals and pads. Even it was all stock, it behaved similarly.

With regards to knobby and street tires, I don't have experience here. Good to know.

I noticed that after putting an aftermarket scooter tire on the V12, the ride became better over most types of bumps, and felt more stable. However, I did not observed significant reduction or increase in wobble tendencies.

My Abrams also have strong wobble tendencies during braking above 50 km/h. Firmware settings has some influence. And riding style can suppress wobbles.