Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Tawpie]

KRAP! I've got master on the brain... 134.

Never mind! 

[mrelwood]

19 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

KRAP! I've got master on the brain... 134.

Never mind! 

You shall from here on forward be called Tawpie The MasterMind! Will you change your nick or do you want us mods to do that?

[wstuart]

1 hour ago, Elliott Reitz said:

wstuart:  "I'm still on the fence about maintaining my S22 pre order, and I'm a tired of reading posts about glowing nickle strips"

Yea, metoo. 

As someone who already has an S22 I'm wondering if I should get an old metal garbage can to keep it in until I can replace its dead controller and questionable batteries.  I like the high surge batteries option talked about too.  I don't push range and do have speed anxiety vs underpowered wheels into high headwinds like the S18 (and like S22 compared to my 3YO MSX100V).  

Meanwhile, I just put an ewheels deposit in for a Begode Master.  When that arrives I think I might sell what's left of my S22 (obviously there might be a market for S22 parts to keep the 38 remaining prototypes alive).  

And yea, of the 40 prototypes 1 = destroyed by fire and 1 = killed by firmware declared fault (mine). And yea, killed by firmware fault since I can measure my batteries are  both charged over 124V.  (both are >125 now charging that its only charging 1 at a time).

Wait, you've got one that also died?  Wow.  Was it just bricked after you tried to download the s22 update, or did something happen to it while riding?  

[Paradox]

2 minutes ago, wstuart said:

Wait, you've got one that also died?  Wow.  Was it just bricked after you tried to download the s22 update, or did something happen to it while riding?

 

[Forwardnbak]

i’m just watching and seeing all the master positives. The “we are sending them all okay” attitude from KS - please tell us why they are okay? 

feels like they are sending them to stop people switching orders. TaDa! fixed. 

Master is looking better and better. 

[Paul A]

Haven't watched yet, just posting.

Veteran Sherman Max Review, KingSong S22 Update + More!

54 views · 36 minutes ago

eevee's
3.81K subscribers

 

[Miko.cz]

5 hours ago, Forwardnbak said:

i’m just watching and seeing all the master positives. The “we are sending them all okay” attitude from KS - please tell us why they are okay? 

feels like they are sending them to stop people switching orders. TaDa! fixed. 

Master is looking better and better. 

Because Master is not under heavy external validation for about 5 months?

[That Guy]

36 minutes ago, Miko.cz said:

Because Master is not under heavy external validation for about 5 months?

To me it looks like KingSong thought to beat the market (or did they know about the new suspension range Begode were preparing to announce?) and risked to advertise the future want-to-be the greatest S20? By the look of it, InMotion abandoned a similar strategy with their "V13", but "just", and maybe only "thanks" to the painful failure they experienced with V12...

I wish KingSong all the best - remarkable effort and courage. And I hope they haven't burnt out their R&D during the refinement effort of S20 so that they will be able to focus on their next design. But yeah, it does look like Begode Master is an increasingly tough S20's competitor.

Edited April 26, 2022 by That Guy

[Miko.cz]

57 minutes ago, That Guy said:

To me it looks like KingSong thought to beat the market...

good point, but it goes against words of Jack that he had good internal discussion in KS about announcing incomming S20 when the Inmotion camed with V12 (decision of delay won).
On the other hand BG quickly announced a lot of new models (and prototype LiPo4) after S20 has been introduced, but BG with slightly better paper specs.
But yeah, I think Im KS fan. On the other hand Master looks very interesting also to me (based on available info now and lack of validation). I wish it a good luck, competitor is something we needs to improve.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Miko.cz
typo

[Wolverine]

 

[techyiam]

11 minutes ago, Miko.cz said:

I think Im KS fan. On the other hand Master looks very interesting also to me (based on available info now and lack of validation

You mean because U-Stride hasn't ridden it yet? 🙂

[techyiam]

MADpack gave a scalding review on the S20/22. Is this the final nail in the coffin, or is he trying to pare out the V13 competition before the V13 is launched? Not only is he saying that the S20/22 should not be considered a pre-production model, he is saying it is more of an early prototype that needs plenty of changes, with some that are fundamental in nature.

[Rawnei]

57 minutes ago, techyiam said:

MADpack gave a scalding review on the S20/22. Is this the final nail in the coffin, or is he trying to pare out the V13 competition before the V13 is launched? Not only is he saying that the S20/22 should not be considered a pre-production model, he is saying it is more of an early prototype that needs plenty of changes, with some that are fundamental in nature.

Reviews are just subjective opinions, in this case he thinks the pre-production unit he has is not even close to a finished product and the things he has issue with he don't see how that would be fixed.

With that said one of his main gripes is that the geometry of the wheel makes it impossible to have both good acceleration and braking for example, I don't really agree with that, I think you can get both if you set geometry and pads up correctly and there are plenty of riders who did not have this issue and KS already moved the pedals a bit forward on the production units to shift the center of gravity. Another gripe he had was the suspension sliders, not that he has issues now but he predicts he will, those might be cause for concern but only time will tell how well they hold up same as with the system on the Master, we simply don't know yet we can only speculate.

Personal subjective opinion: I think it's still overall a solid looking wheel, when comparing to the master the main factors I look at is torque (Master has the very strong C38 motor) and suspension travel (80mm vs 130mm) as deciding factors. Build quality and potential future issues nobody can say on any of these wheels yet.

[Forwardnbak]

i did see in one of the comments that apparently MADpack isn’t a big fan of KS? 

Some history apparently? He did mention this also though.

Everyones opinion is valid, but gee there is a wide range of opinion on this. 

I didn’t like the rusty looking bolt and i think he mentioned many good points. 

 

Man i hope it’s sorted a little more

[Paul A]

Monocat Kate joining and working for Eevees in Canada.

Is Wrong Way going to be moving to Canada as well?

[techyiam]

Also, he is an Inmotion ambassador. So what? He presented his observations and findings, and explained himself on those. And some of his points are just echos of what others have said. Now, it is up to the viewers to glean off what he or her wants to.

I can't say that I am in agreement with everything he says. But I do have one data point to share.

Initially, I thought his review on the original V12 was hype and perhaps over the top. It can't be that good, could it? Well, now after some thousands of kilometers of ride time, and many trials and tribulations of fine tuning, maybe MADpack has a point. And of course, the Mosfet issue and the wonky firmware 1.5.4 notwithstanding. 

Edited April 28, 2022 by techyiam

[techyiam]

28 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Monocat Kate joining and working for Eevees in Canada.

I have yet to come across one female rider on an euc in these parts. And she has her own YouTube channel, and was made known in Wrongway's videos. I thought she came across great in her videos as a rider and as a host. Since EEVEES wants to promote euc's to the female population, it looks like EEVEES got themselves a good catch.

[Forwardnbak]

EEVEES were very positive about KS22 new firmware 

[Blunzn]

1 hour ago, Forwardnbak said:

EEVEES were very positive about KS22 new firmware 

yes they said that the tinny, metalic sound you got while accelerating hard for the first ~10 meters is now gone. much more torque and power, way easier to accelerate, huge difference, mind blown.... where some of their words about the new firmware. good to hear

[wstuart]

I got to speak with the eevees guys when they visited San Diego.  They were raving about the s20 and said it was their absolute favorite wheel and all they wanted to ride.  At this point, their candid review is helping me maintain my pre-order 

I do however agree with madpacks assesment of the s22 open suspension sliders. I ride on really dusty trails and I think those open slider might get messed up over time.  I remeber wrongway say that one of the sliders was already busted when he got his demo and "Ginger on wheels" said that his s22 suspension was less smooth than when he first got it.  

I like that the point of contact on the s22 suspension is plastic on metal.  I feel this is better than metal on metal (as in my EX and potentially the Master).  I would hope that the plastic sliders on the s22 would be made of something durable like delrin. 

Also I like that the s22 suspension has 4 points of contact instead of 2.  When Hsaing visited San Diego he said that having 4 sliders allows the overall frame and feel of s22 to be stiffer.  

If I get an S22 I will immediately lubricate the plastic slider with a product called "Dryfluid".  Its a very effective lubricant that is dry and doesn't attract dirt.

Edited April 26, 2022 by wstuart

[techyiam]

42 minutes ago, Blunzn said:

accelerating hard for the first ~10 meters is now gone. much more torque

Confusing indeed. @Ginger On Wheels appears to be having the opposite experience. Time-stamped. 

 

 

[supercurio]

8 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Confusing indeed. @Ginger On Wheels appears to be having the opposite experience. Time-stamped. 

 

 

Confusing no doubt.
@eevees assessment seems a bit more placebo-y inspired by the firmware Changelog, whereas @Ginger On Wheels actually demonstrate the torque (or lack thereof) by the pedals dipping during a steep climb on for heavier riding weight.

If the vibrations are gone at least it means that they tuned the motor & controller better. Some wheels are notorious for low speed vibrations like the Kingsong 16X which was kind of out of control on the original firmware and got better with 1.07 - although it never became particularly smooth.

Edited April 26, 2022 by supercurio

[Eucner]

1 hour ago, wstuart said:

Also I like that the s22 suspension has 4 points of contact instead of 2.

Yes, at each side. 8 in total.

[Tawpie]

One of the 'bad' things about suspension is that they require routine maintenance. When you sign up for suspension, you get to clean, lubricate, and replace parts. Bushings and 'sliders' are designed wear-replace items, so one important aspect is that they should be relatively easy and affordable to replace. Fox recommends rebuilding their shocks at (shockingly) short intervals https://www.ridefox.com/fox_tech_center/owners_manuals/013/Content/Service_Intervals.html I haven't looked to see what DNM's recommendations are (fear)!

KS had some early wording on one of the color glossies that recommended suspension service every 30 days, so if you want a spot on suspension that doesn't wear out too early, know that maintenance is part of the deal!

This is part of the reason I'm keeping my hard tail 16X (that is quite smooth on 2.09 FWIW!)... street riding where I don't absolutely need suspension will happen on a wheel that doesn't need much, if any, attention.

[Whalesmash]

Maintenance or not, the S20's slider design is just not smart. It's wide open and uses grease. It's a dirt/dust magnet, and it will probably have poor wear over time. I don't understand why they didn't just take their existing suspension design from the S18 (which had its flaws, but also had its remedies) and iterate on the design. Honestly it should have been a simple 2.0 update, double up on the batteries, adjust the shell design so it's more functional rather than aesthetic, and then change it to 100V+ system with a fittingly powerful motor (hollow core or otherwise). While I do expect KS to be able to fix their issues with their current design, it just seems like they're vastly overcomplicated something that should have been an easy win for them.