Why I stopped using EUC world (And can someone change my mind?)

[macrhino]

I have a helmet which suspends a phone in front of me while riding. I use the phone (A dedicated one) to monitor and control my several wheels. My latest commuting wheel is a S18. I wanted to take advantage of the cheaper price of the Android devices as I was hit by a car and the wreck broke the screen of my dedicated iPhone. Naturally I downloaded EUC world and paid to be a premium member. I am very impressed by the functionality of the app but it has problems I can't overcome. 

Here is why I am stopping the USE of it. 

1. No shortcut to strobing. I use Flic buttons to control the wheel. Bizarrely I can do a lot with the Flic buttons and Gauge touches  but I can not enable and disable strobing. I find the strobe function to be a very useful safety feature and not having a shortcut is a killer problem for me. 

2. The Gauge is great sometimes but the inability to change from a dark background with white text to a light background with dark text is a killer here in Floria with our bright midday sun. 

3. Why does EUC world ask for a passcode to the wheel on startup? It should remember the last code. IS this a setting I can not find? 

And of course 

4. No real explanation of the app. I looked all over for a simple diagram of what all of the circles and icons on the gauge part of the app. I can not find this. In fact, I have found very little in help for this other than coming here and asking questions. The interface of this app is not good enough to be self explanatory in everything. Where is the help? 

Comments? 

Edited December 11, 2020 by macrhino

[Chriull]

18 minutes ago, macrhino said:

Comments

If you'd ask @Seba for some specific features that are important to you, maybe you'd have a chance getting them implememted. Could be that he finds your arguments compelling?

 @Seba develops EUC World because he just likes to - this EUC market is imho too much of a niche to earn real money.

So, if you prefer to not use it - don't use it!

If you prefer Darknesbot, wheellog or KS App - it's your choice!

If you like it somehow and want it to develop gather your criticism - what you love, like, whats about ok and what you'r missing. Backed up by convincing arguments!

 

[macrhino]

6 minutes ago, Chriull said:

If you'd ask @Seba for some specific features that are important to you, maybe you'd have a chance getting them implememted. Could be that he finds your arguments compelling?

 @Seba develops EUC World because he just likes to - this EUC market is imho too much of a niche to earn real money.

So, if you prefer to not use it - don't use it!

If you prefer Darknesbot, wheellog or KS App - it's your choice!

If you like it somehow and want it to develop gather your criticism - what you love, like, whats about ok and what you'r missing. Backed up by convincing arguments!

 

"If you'd ask @Seba for some specific features that are important to you, maybe you'd have a chance getting them implememted" 

from the OP:

"I find the strobe function to be a very useful safety feature and not having a shortcut is a killer problem for me. "
"Inability to change from a dark background with white text to a light background with dark text is a killer here in Floria with our bright midday sun. "

What is the above? As an App developer myself, that is exactly how I would have taken the OP. 


" @Seba develops EUC World because he just likes to"

I am an App Developer. If you ask SEBA he will tell you that I overpaid what he asked for my premium, I assume you overpay as well? 


What I find absolutely bizarre is this: 
"If you like it somehow and want it to develop gather your criticism - what you love, like, whats about ok and what you'r missing. Backed up by convincing arguments!"

So, what do you imagine the OP was?

Egos get in the way of good development. I started the OP with " I am very impressed by the functionality of the app but it has problems..." I pointed out my issues, and acknowledged it could simply be my (lack of) knowledge of the app. Instead of pointing out where I could find this functionality, the commenter chose to criticize the comments instead. I certainly hope SEBA has a bit more mature reaction. 

Is your point that I should be obsequious or simply say nothing? 

[Seba]

6 hours ago, macrhino said:

1. No shortcut to strobing. I use Flic buttons to control the wheel. Bizarrely I can do a lot with the Flic buttons and Gauge touches  but I can not enable and disable strobing. I find the strobe function to be a very useful safety feature and not having a shortcut is a killer problem for me. 

No one has ever asked to add a quick action to activate the strobe mode. If anyone had done so, most likely such a feature would have been present in the application long ago. Anyway, I have added it to my "to do" list. I agree that it may be useful.

My email is publicly known. I try to respond to every email and many EUC World users can confirm that when they reported a need to add a feature, if it actually made sense, it was added quite quickly in subsequent updates. If you had reported a need to add a feature instead of complaining now, you would probably get what you want.

6 hours ago, macrhino said:

2. The Gauge is great sometimes but the inability to change from a dark background with white text to a light background with dark text is a killer here in Floria with our bright midday sun. 

The ability to change the default black theme will soon be added to the application. The "black on white" theme is first on the list.

6 hours ago, macrhino said:

3. Why does EUC world ask for a passcode to the wheel on startup? It should remember the last code. IS this a setting I can not find?

EUC World at the stage of scanning Bluetooth LE devices does not know what the wheel is and whether it is a wheel at all. It is only when the connection process starts that the recognition of the wheel type begins. If you know that your wheel is not password-protected, you simply do not enter anything. The next EUC World update will remember the passwords.

6 hours ago, macrhino said:

4. No real explanation of the app. I looked all over for a simple diagram of what all of the circles and icons on the gauge part of the app. I can not find this. In fact, I have found very little in help for this other than coming here and asking questions. The interface of this app is not good enough to be self explanatory in everything. Where is the help? 

As time goes by, I will be adding more videos-tutorials to the EUC World Youtube channel. Anyway, this is the forum for us to help each other. If you don't know something, ask. There will definitely be someone to help you. EUC World is a community-supported project. This also means that you can count on experienced community members to help you.

[macrhino]

@Seba "Complaining" is probably the wrong word for my post. As a developer, I find user input essential. I did not want to go through a list of "what I wanted" since much of what I want is not useful for the general community. So I decided to structure the comment above as the problems which prevent me from switching to EUC world.  

"If you don't know something, ask. There will definitely be someone to help you."

I thought that was the purpose of the addition "And can someone change my mind?" I thought maybe some of the problems would be my ignorance (Like where is a gauge diagram) and some one would correct me (in the usage of the app, not complaining about the type of comment). Obviously I would not have paid for the use of the app if I was simply complaining. 

Coming on to a forum to ask questions is not the same as a user guide. Strangely enough, you wrote "EUC World is a community-supported project. This also means that you can count on experienced community members to help you.". I say the same back to you. As an example, I would be more than pleased to assist you in writing and maintaining such a user guide so you can concentrate on making the app better. Sadly, in order to do so, I need to understand the gauge myself. As soon as I do, I will create such a gauge diagram and upload it. 

Please consider my comment in the spirit it was intended. 

[Rawnei]

@macrhino your angle was literally "I stopped using the app and here's why" and @Seba's response was actually pretty productive addressing every single one of your points contrary to your approach.

I think @Seba is doing a great job meeting all the different requests that pops up and I don't understand why you would get worked up before you even tried asking for the things you wanted or why you're not happy that they are being addressed.

[macrhino]

6 hours ago, Rawnei said:

@macrhino your angle was literally "I stopped using the app and here's why" and @Seba's response was actually pretty productive addressing every single one of your points contrary to your approach.

I think @Seba is doing a great job meeting all the different requests that pops up and I don't understand why you would get worked up before you even tried asking for the things you wanted or why you're not happy that they are being addressed.

Obviously the EUC world community is sensitive to the wording of my comments. I am sorry if SEBA took offense. I did not mean to insult. I was explaining why it was not working FOR ME. I was not "worked up"! I was explaining my problems with the app. 

But the community sensitivity issue is more detrimental for me than the problems I described. I was working to help Darknessbot fully support the V11 by using a beta version and providing comments. I did not encounter this type of attitude when working with them. So while the advantages of a cheap device would have been nice, older iPhones are cheap enough. I won't make this mistake again. 

Good luck with your future development @SEBA. I would have liked to try out your app more fully. But I do not want to deal with the sensitive user base. What if I have a question and fail to phrase the question respectfully enough? Simply not worth the hassle for me. 

Edited December 15, 2020 by macrhino

[Rawnei]

There is no sensitive community here, you're just projecting and being really rude for no reason.

[macrhino]

23 hours ago, Rawnei said:

There is no sensitive community here, you're just projecting and being really rude for no reason.

Thanks for informing me of this after I left.

I am sure SEBA appreciates the forum alienating PAYING customers. It certainly helps with Development.

Perhaps you guys would be better served taking the ego off the sleeves and trying to understand development.  I was an Apple technical manger for years. Fanbois are not conducive to good product development. 

But please, continue your "help." 

[Seba]

2 hours ago, macrhino said:

I am sure SEBA appreciates the forum alienating PAYING customers. It certainly helps with Development.

@macrhino @Rawnei - guys, please stop  We live in a tough times. There is no need to make it any tougher. We may have a different point of view on many things, but we're all sharing the same passion after all. Let's focus on this passion.

[Matthieu Thegrey]

I switched back to wheellog because EUC World could not not be killed. I explain: when i quit the app, the only way for it to really stop sucking my battery and talking to me was to restart the phone. Hard to manage. Certainly just a bug with my phone but it had become very annoying.

[Scottie888]

15 minutes ago, Matthieu Thegrey said:

I switched back to wheellog because EUC World could not not be killed. I explain: when i quit the app, the only way for it to really stop sucking my battery and talking to me was to restart the phone. Hard to manage. Certainly just a bug with my phone but it had become very annoying.

No need for reboot. U can kill the app under the apps section in settings. Also I think under developer section, u can set kill apps once u exit out. I forget if that is universal or if its possible to set it for a particular app. FWIW a lot of apps will run in background mode upon exit so its not a EUC World exclusive.

3 hours ago, macrhino said:

Thanks for informing me of this after I left.

I am sure SEBA appreciates the forum alienating PAYING customers. It certainly helps with Development.

Perhaps you guys would be better served taking the ego off the sleeves and trying to understand development.  I was an Apple technical manger for years. Fanbois are not conducive to good product development. 

But please, continue your "help." 

For those unhappy with EUC World or any app for that matter, fortunately there are choices & no one is holding a knife to make anyone use any particular app. Ofcos one can always revert back to the mfgr's app after which I'm sure, perspectives might change. No app is perfect & can always be improved which as you know, is an ongoing & time consuming process. Perhaps there might be truly altruistic folks out there but its not a sin to want to get paid for one's work. Or were you working at Apple just for the fun of it🤔.

Since you're in the same business, perhaps you can "help" & develop an app so the rest of us know how it should be done. At the very least, its alot better than being all talk & no go. Easy to be an armchair quarterback is all's I'm saying.

[Seba]

10 minutes ago, Scottie888 said:

FWIW a lot of apps will run in background mode upon exit so its not a EUC World exclusive.

EUC World tour & log synchronization service is started every 15 minutes, but it just starts, checks if there is anything to synchronize and then quits. No measurable drain on battery.

51 minutes ago, Matthieu Thegrey said:

when i quit the app, the only way for it to really stop sucking my battery and talking to me was to restart the phone

This means that EUC World is quit in unusual way, so speech service component isn't stopped but killed or is crashing. This causes Android to restart it and this is why it starts to speak again. Normally, this shouldn't happen when you quit the app by tapping back / using "back" gesture then confirming quit dialog. By killing the app (for example from task list), this will cause Android that app has failed and restart it.

Of course EUC World most probably isn't free of bugs or issues that normally doesn't show up. With each release I try to improve its reliability, so it can work flawlessly on most devices. For example upcoming release will contain lot of improvements and optimizations, will also include vastly improved support for small-screen devices like Lemfo T or TicWris Max. Still, as it's a quite complex piece of code, there can be some hardware+software combinations that are not fully supported. Each update is made to not only include new features, but also to resolve some known issues.

[Matthieu Thegrey]

46 minutes ago, Seba said:

EUC World tour & log synchronization service is started every 15 minutes, but it just starts, checks if there is anything to synchronize and then quits. No measurable drain on battery.

This means that EUC World is quit in unusual way, so speech service component isn't stopped but killed or is crashing. This causes Android to restart it and this is why it starts to speak again. Normally, this shouldn't happen when you quit the app by tapping back / using "back" gesture then confirming quit dialog. By killing the app (for example from task list), this will cause Android that app has failed and restart it.

Of course EUC World most probably isn't free of bugs or issues that normally doesn't show up. With each release I try to improve its reliability, so it can work flawlessly on most devices. For example upcoming release will contain lot of improvements and optimizations, will also include vastly improved support for small-screen devices like Lemfo T or TicWris Max. Still, as it's a quite complex piece of code, there can be some hardware+software combinations that are not fully supported. Each update is made to not only include new features, but also to resolve some known issues.

Oh thank you for this reply, in fact i never tried to quit it like that so i'll try it !

 

edit: yeah it works like this, i still have to kill it by sliding it up like i did before after that, but at least it seems to stop correctly this way !

Edited December 16, 2020 by Matthieu Thegrey

[Unventor]

On 12/11/2020 at 4:23 PM, macrhino said:

Comments? 

I am just baffled by a post like this. Even the thread title makes me go?

"Ehh so what reaction were you hoping to get?" 

So my 2cent comment goes like this:

I guess most of us live in a free world and can make our own choices. Whiter what app we prefer or if you want to chip in to assist the developer is a choice to make too. 

@Seba has been very clear that he started EUC. WORLD to make something different to his liking and it is a project run by a 1 person development. But he has many times over also shown he can add or fix things fast if it is reported constructively to him or any of the group he selected to assist in beta testing and translation.

I value the app. Others might not, that does not really concern me a lot. I sent a symbolic donation to show my appreciation. It is not like you are forced to do that. I also decided to join the beta team as another way to pitch in since I don't have programming skills. 

So if I am not bothered or concerned about OP post, I am concerned that post like this could disencourage others to make something they like and share it with the community. 

So my main point here is, @Seba please just keep doing what you do. It is after all your private spare time you spend (away from riding/work/family). It is not a multi global corporation that made the despite first impressions could make one think of that.

As for documentation to features, we support group are aware of this but the app started out relative simple, but as suggestions came more complexity came with more creative solutions. 

I still sit with my question to OP. And to the this he like to see or is missing, what app can do all these things? Not that it would make any difference to me. It is functionalities I am not missing right now. 

Overall note: (I don't know if it is just me, but it makes me sad to see how frequent we see posts here trying to put people down or a brand. It not the same that you want something to change. It is how you put your message a cross. Do you inspire for people to listen? Or are you just making noise.)

I will give an example. Go to Inmotion section look at the threads created resently and could how many that could be worded differently yet still making same message. And look at who created this. 

So do we accept the community has gone down to this level? Or can we do better? It is a choice we all make when posting things here or any social media. 

Personally I like to grow our community and inspire new riders. Just like I got inspired by other people here like @Marty Backe or @Rehab1 and his wife😉 and @Duf (though mostly by his YouTube channel).

@Mike Sacristan should get a mention too here. Despite I know he doesn't use EUC. WORLD. 

There were a lot of others too. And even from time to time new people join and give me a boost seeing how they learn to ride and the stuff they share. 

I think we should keep this thread on the headline topic. But if you should choose to push like to this post I read that as, yes we can do better together, so let's make it happen. 

[Tawpie]

I use three apps! EUC World when I want to be silly with AVAS or when I want a detailed log of my ride. DarknessBot when I want the more functional watch features I get with Cupertino watch vs Pebble. I have to use the KingSong app to check my state of charge because the other two aren’t even close (my 16XS is a little strange and not popular so I’m neither surprised nor upset—DB is trying to correct a bug/feature? that makes it declare the battery is always 100% and EUCWorld thinks my battery is simultaneously running an electric oven). Yeah, the display on the Pebble is dated and I can’t honk the trumpet and yeah, I had to McGiver a band for my watch so I don’t have to disable the passcode and Apple Pay, but that’s ok. I’m just glad folks are doing the work and am happy to support all of them (with money) because I’m too lazy to write another app. Yes, my day job is a professional bug creator for mobile apps.

If anyone does need a reason to try EUCWorld again and smile, I have one word (acronym to be precise) for you: AVAS!

And before we get our panties in too many knots over this needing fixing or that missing feature, I encourage us to ponder this eternal truth because it might temper expectations: Hardware will break... software comes broken.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Tawpie
auto carrot was “helping” me type

[Mike Sacristan]

21 hours ago, Unventor said:

 

@Mike Sacristan should get a mention too here. Despite I know he doesn't use EUC. WORLD. 

 

Thanks! 

 

I don't use it but I know exactly how it works. Because it is EUC related. I have an android and a pebble for testing purposes.
There are many riders in the group and I help them with their EUC World settings so that we can keep accidents to a minimum, have proper representation of battery usage, etc.

[Unventor]

13 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Thanks! 

 

I don't use it but I know exactly how it works. Because it is EUC related. I have an android and a pebble for testing purposes.
There are many riders in the group and I help them with their EUC World settings so that we can keep accidents to a minimum, have proper representation of battery usage, etc.

Right now we don't have a Swedish translation. So might be worth for some to pitch the idea that @Seba often give primium access (his discretion so I can't promise on what terms) if you (someone) assist him with making avaliable on language's not yet translated. Then we mostly act as community champions too gathering feedback and bugs. 

In case someone is interested feel free contact me and I can explain a bit more on how we do this. 

Sometimes this is busy other times it is quite, the first transaction is the biggest task. But it is a continuous job due to feedback and @Seba keep making new features and polishing old features too.

And as you mentioned if it is used right it is a safety feature to the apps warning that I have not seen in any brand app yet.  I don't know how DarknessBot works. 

[travsformation]

On 12/11/2020 at 4:23 PM, macrhino said:

I looked all over for a simple diagram of what all of the circles and icons on the gauge part of the app. I can not find this.

 

On 12/17/2020 at 7:57 AM, Tawpie said:

EUCWorld thinks my battery is simultaneously running an electric oven

Open EUC World and make sure your wheel is connected. Make sure you aren't recording a tour or logging data (the CSV icon on the main screen should be white; if it's green, just tap on it to stop data logging). Go to settings >> General settings >> Battery, and choose the "Standard" algorithm instead of the "optimized" one. 

[Tawpie]

8 hours ago, travsformation said:

Make sure you aren't recording a tour or logging data (the CSV icon on the main screen should be white; if it's green, just tap on it to stop data logging). Go to settings >> General settings >> Battery, and choose the "Standard" algorithm instead of the "optimized" one. 

Bully! I was wondering why I couldn't change the battery algorithm (auto-start logging is turned on). Now much closer, KS @78.34V says 77%, EUCWorld (same voltage, standard algo) says 84%—might not be accounting for the half battery?. DB hasn't been fixed so according to that app I am still blessed with infinite range on a 776 kWH battery (I had no idea the XS had superior range to every other EV on the planet. Then again, maybe DB is in cahoots with KS marketing?).

I do wish the wheels would expose the coulomb count for state of charge, they have to have a hardware fuel gauge on the BMS.

Edited December 18, 2020 by Tawpie

[Tawpie]

Where are my manners ☺️? Thank you for the tip@travsformation! And for the secret EUC World homescreen decoder ring as well.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Tawpie

[travsformation]

On 12/19/2020 at 12:34 AM, Tawpie said:

Bully! I was wondering why I couldn't change the battery algorithm (auto-start logging is turned on). Now much closer, KS @78.34V says 77%, EUCWorld (same voltage, standard algo) says 84%—might not be accounting for the half battery?. DB hasn't been fixed so according to that app I am still blessed with infinite range on a 776 kWH battery (I had no idea the XS had superior range to every other EV on the planet. Then again, maybe DB is in cahoots with KS marketing?).

I do wish the wheels would expose the coulomb count for state of charge, they have to have a hardware fuel gauge on the BMS.

9 hours ago, Tawpie said:

Where are my manners ☺️? Thank you for the tip@travsformation! And for the secret EUC World homescreen decoder ring as well.

Haha no problem. It was about time I showed my face around here and gave @Seba a bit of a hand with FAQs. After all, I'm the one who started writing the documentation and then parked the project out of lack of time. But still, I blame @Seba for developing faster than I'm able to keep up

Do take into account that battery percentage is ultimately just an estimation and not an exact science. As an example, your wheel's battery percentage drops when under load, increases when braking, etc. Or it might display 70% on connection, after not using it for several days, and drop swiftly to 65% if you stop after a couple hundred meters, as the voltage "settles" after some load is applied to the battery packs.

In my experience, the KS app, the standard algo (designed to be similar to KS's) and the value reported via the wheel's LEDs tend to be over-optimistic, inflating usable battery percentage by at least 10-15%, not accounting for the fact that the last 20% battery goes really fast. Being used to the standard algorithm, optimized initially felt like it was way too conservative, about 10% below my real battery life, so for a while, I came to think of "real" battery life being either 10% below what the standard algo said or 10% above what the optimized one did.

But with time, I've come to prefer @Seba's optimized algorithm. In one occasion I was getting tiltback at very low speeds, below 25 km/h, and the app was reporting 21% battery left. I even thought one of the battery packs might have come disconnected. The optimized algorithm gave me a 4% battery reading, much more in line with how the wheel was behaving. I actually recorded my screen as the battery dropped because I was so shocked. It seemed like a massive inconsistency on the wheel's side that it was reporting such a high value (also on the LED indicators on the wheel itself) while at the same time tilting me back even when trolleying:

 

It took a while to get used to the optimized algorithm, for some time I was "range paranoid", but in the end, it's proven more reliable and spared me having to walk home in several occasions. The last 10% goes down really slowly, I tend to get more than 1 km per percentage point, and I reckon I could probably get about 5 km out of the wheel once it hit 0%. That 10%ish "under-reporting" can be the difference between "Ah, I still have 24% battery, I can take the detour" and "14% battery? I better head straight home", or on the other hand, "24%, I'm good to go, I'll just ride the soft tiltback at 40 km/h" and "14%....I better moderate my speed to make sure I make it". Which also leads to higher safety margins on low battery.

OK, I don't know where that sermon came from...😅 Trying to reassure myself, maybe, after a long long and rocky path of accepting and embracing the optimized algorithm, which I initially hated? (And admittedly, still resent from time to time as I often end up cutting my trips shorter than I used to) 😂

But having experienced the above example (luckily I was carrying my charger in my backpack and was able to charge at a cafe or I would have had to walk 5 km back to my RV), and another few similar instances, it's optimized all the way for me!

And maybe one of these days, if the shitty kind of weather one would expect in winter actually settles in, and I'm stuck indoors and not overburdened by work like I am now, I'll be able to resume the documentation project

 

[macrhino]

On 12/16/2020 at 1:29 PM, Seba said:

@macrhino @Rawnei - guys, please stop  We live in a tough times. There is no need to make it any tougher. We may have a different point of view on many things, but we're all sharing the same passion after all. Let's focus on this passion.

Thank you @Seba. Wise words. NO offense should be taken where none was meant.  

"Perhaps there might be truly altruistic folks out there but its not a sin to want to get paid for one's work. Or were you working at Apple just for the fun of it🤔"

If everyone really wants to help SEBA, they should be premium members. I am. I WAS BEFORE I POSTED HERE. I guess someone missed that. I signed up and paid almost immediately (and more than what he asked for) because I could see (and understand) the effort behind this development. I hope everyone here commenting are also already Premium members. @Seba What percentage of EUC world users are already premium members? Even if I do not continue use the app, I will renew this premium when it expires simply to support the development effort. Maybe I was working at Apple for the "fun of it", maybe I consulted with CERN on the development of the World Wide Web for the "fun of it," but I did PAY Seba. I hope everyone here did too. 


" ...Since you're in the same business, perhaps you can "help" & develop an app so the rest of us know how it should be done. At the very least, its a lot better than being all talk & no go" 

I think I delineated some of the things I thought were needed. In addition I suggested ways "we" (I) could help @Seba in his efforts. Redoing what he has already done is otiose. Again, above I wrote to Seba:

"As an example, I would be more than pleased to assist you in writing and maintaining such a user guide so you can concentrate on making the app better. Sadly, in order to do so, I need to understand the gauge myself. As soon as I do, I will create such a gauge diagram and upload it. "

@Seba Do you have a bug tracking system? If not, can I write one, setup one for you? Do you have a online users guide? Can I create one for you? Do you have a localization database? Can I create one for you? How can I help?