16X beeping while charging

[travsformation]

 I plan on doing an 80-90ish km ride tomorrow so I just plugged my 16X in; I'll charge it for a while now, before bed, and finish topping it off tomorrow. 

I'm using the 1rad 5A quick charger, set to 5A and to charge it to 100%. I plugged it in, switched on the charger and came back to my computer. A few seconds later, the wheel beeped. I wondered what that was about, and about 30" later, it beeped again. I walked over to the spare room where it was charging and it beeped again: it's two quick consecutive beeps. The charger displays read out 5.65A, which is higher than it usually charges (I believe it's usually around the 5.1-5.2 A mark).

I opened EUC World and the charging status seems OK, but the amperage seems a bit high compared to the values I usually get.

 

At a given time, the headlight blinked on and off quickly. Hasn't done it again. This had never happened before, so it's a but unnerving. I tried to time the beeps, but they're not equally spaced: 3", 14", 34", 46"...

Sensing it had to do with overload or something along those like (although it shouldn't' be the case), I lowered the amperage setting on the charger to 4A (so it's actually charging at 4.6A): no more beeps. Raised it to 5A again: beeps. Tried changing from the right port to the left port: same thing. Tried the stock charger: no beeps. 2X stock chargers (1 per port, so 2 x 1.5A = 3A) >> no beeps. Fast charger @ 1, 2, 3 and 4 A, no beeps, the minute I up it to 5A, the wheel starts beeping.

Ever since I received the 1rad charger about 2 months ago, I've been using it @ 5A without any issues. I've used it without issue since upgrading to FW 2.02 too (I mention this because the release note mention "optimized charging management"). Could it be connected with the charger? Or maybe a heat-related issue? The wheel hadn't been ridden for at least 3h before I plugged it in, but it's around 28º C in the room where the wheel is charging. Could it be temperature related? And if so, if I were to leave it plugged in at 5A (which I don't plan on doing), would the BMS take care of it and shut off the power input, or is it not that intelligent and will limit itself to beeping at me?

Or could this be a sign of something more worrying, like a partially messed up wire, or damaged cells being overloaded? (maybe I'm being paranoid, but I'm far from knowledgeable in terms of battery tech and would rather be safe than sorry...)

Has this happened to anyone else? Any clues what it could be?

Edited July 6, 2020 by travsformation

[NOSFET Electric Dreams]

Please be cautious when using third party charger. 

[travsformation]

30 minutes ago, Jack King Song said:

Please be cautious when using third party charger. 

1rad is known to be a reliable company that produces quality products, I've never had issues of this type before. Regardless, could you provide more details on my specific case? What's the max. amperage the 16X can be charged at? Is it possible that 5A at 20º C room temperature is OK, but not at 28º C room temperature? What could the beeping indicate based on the description above? And if there is an issue with the charger, can I trust the 16X's BMS to cut off the power input if safe charging conditions aren't met?

Thanks in advance for your help 

Edited July 6, 2020 by travsformation

[NOSFET Electric Dreams]

2 minutes ago, travsformation said:

1rad is known to be a reliable company that produces quality products, I've never had issues of this type before. Regardless, could you provide more details on my specific case? What's the max. amperage the 16X can be charged at? Is it possible that 5A at 20º C room temperature is OK, but not at 28º C room temperature? What could the beeping indicate based on the description above? And if there is an issue with the charger, can I trust the 16X's BMS to cut off the power input if safe charging conditions aren't met?

Thanks in advance for your help 

6a is max, if this doesnt happen with original charger then something is faulty with your charger I believe. Those chargers are only set to 5a max and its pushing beyond 5 right now. I'd be careful. The temperature isnt an issue. The BMS will do its best however I wouldnt advise leaving it plugged. 

[Unventor]

If I recall earlier answers gives it was stated before launch of KS16X that it could handle 10A charging tops. 5A pr port. 

But as firmware progressed I think around 1.0.5 or 1.0.7 this changed. It was first set to a lowers top Amp and then raised top max 6A totally.

I never got any issues at my eucunicle.eu fast charger is 300W or max at 4A or so. 

Now when ever you charge batteries the fast this is done the higher risk you have for them reaching a high temperature.  This is one of those thing that stresses the battery. So while you can do something safely it is not the same as it is without impact or consequences. 

That is why I like my eunicycle.eu fastcharger. It is faster than normal but not too high on charging. It is also overall more compact and much lighter. But it has a little too noisy fan. I guess it is a feature....so I know if I turned off the smart wall plug or not. 

Nope the noise from the fan is annoying. 

Edited July 6, 2020 by Unventor
Jack made a post just as I were typing.

[travsformation]

35 minutes ago, Jack King Song said:

6a is max, if this doesnt happen with original charger then something is faulty with your charger I believe. Those chargers are only set to 5a max and its pushing beyond 5 right now. I'd be careful. The temperature isnt an issue.

Thanks for the quick reply!

The original chargers deliver a lower amperage after all (2 x 1.5A = 3A), but I did find it odd that my fast charger was charging above its rated 5A. Doesn't inspire much confidence in the charger at this point, but still, it was under the wheel's rated amperage...maybe the 5.65A was too close to the max. rated 6A, and warm room temperature contributed? (since lowering it to 4A, meaning it was charging at 4.6A, seemed to stop the beeping). Or could it be possible the charger was supplying too high a voltage? 

The wheel has been charging with 2X KS chargers since I posted, and the wheel voltage has just reached 84.1V. For testing purposes, I plugged the fast charger in again, and it charges at 3.34A (it's set to 4A). I left it like that for 10 min. (supervised). The wheel didn't beep and the wheel's fan never turned on, only for a couple of seconds when I plug it in, which it always does. But after unplugging the fast charger and plugging the stock chargers in again, the wheel's fan turned on and stayed on for over a minute, until I unplugged them. I let the wheel cool off for 5', plugged in the stock chargers again and no fan. Tried the fast charger, no fan. Sounds like either a charger issue, a heat issue, or maybe a bit of both? What I don't understand is why the wheel's fan doesn't turn on when using the fast charger, but it does when using the stock chargers...This has me a bit puzzled... 

35 minutes ago, Jack King Song said:

The BMS will do its best however I wouldnt advise leaving it plugged. 

Hmmm....that's not too reassuring. 😰

What type of overvoltage/overcurrent protection does the BMS have? 

Edited July 6, 2020 by travsformation

[travsformation]

19 minutes ago, Unventor said:

If I recall earlier answers gives it was stated before launch of KS16X that it could handle 10A charging tops. 5A pr port. 

But as firmware progressed I think around 1.0.5 or 1.0.7 this changed. It was first set to a lowers top Amp and then raised top max 6A totally.

I never got any issues at my eucunicle.eu fast charger is 300W or max at 4A or so. 

Thanks for the info! 👍

20 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Now when ever you charge batteries the fast this is done the higher risk you have for them reaching a high temperature.  This is one of those thing that stresses the battery. So while you can do something safely it is not the same as it is without impact or consequences. 

That is why I like my eunicycle.eu fastcharger. It is faster than normal but not too high on charging. It is also overall more compact and much lighter. But it has a little too noisy fan. I guess it is a feature....so I know if I turned off the smart wall plug or not. 

Nope the noise from the fan is annoying. 

I agree about the higher risk from increasing battery temperature. Maybe setting it to 5A is too much in summer, and 4A (or even 3A) is more suited. I'd definitely like to look into the charger's health and make sure it's OK. 

The fan on the 1rad is annoying as hell too. Seba actually has a mod on Youtube for a more silent fan. 

[travsformation]

P.S. @Jack King Song is the 16X trying to tell me anything specific when beeping while charging? Does it mean "beware, something isn't right", or do these periodic quick, double-beeps indicate anything specific? Thanks! 

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

Wow, I'm surprised that you never read about this damn beeping safety feature. 

Don't worry, all is fine. More later..... 

[stephen]

I've been using my 5amp charger for all of my 84v wheels, using it on the 16x has always been ok until i updated it to firmware 2.02 and it beeps now and again ,i just ignore it though wether that's wise or not 🤔 

[Michael Tucker]

I use the stock charger on FW2.02 and my wheel beeps all the time when charging, mostly when full or near full. But also hours after charging too.

[Chriull]

5 hours ago, travsformation said:

Thanks for the quick reply!

The original chargers deliver a lower amperage after all (2 x 1.5A = 3A), but I did find it odd that my fast charger was charging above its rated 5A. Doesn't inspire much confidence in the charger at this point, but still, it was under the wheel's rated amperage...maybe the 5.65A was too close to the max. rated 6A, and warm room temperature contributed?

As you see in your first screenshot the maximum current was 6.3 A. (One could discuss if with negative minimum and maximum should be exchanged at the stats...:) )

Your charger and your wheel do not really agree on the current value - one or both are a bit off.

And the current was between 5.6 and 6.3A - so every time the current exceeded 6A as measured by the wheel it beeped.

5 hours ago, travsformation said:

(since lowering it to 4A, meaning it was charging at 4.6A, seemed to stop the beeping). Or could it be possible the charger was supplying too high a voltage? 

No. It supplies, especially in the constant current phase just the voltage needed to drive the set current.

5 hours ago, travsformation said:

The wheel has been charging with 2X KS chargers since I posted, and the wheel voltage has just reached 84.1V.

This should be about the point when charging switches from constant current to constant voltage.

5 hours ago, travsformation said:

For testing purposes, I plugged the fast charger in again, and it charges at 3.34A (it's set to 4A). I left it like that for 10 min. (supervised). The wheel didn't beep and the wheel's fan never turned on, only for a couple of seconds when I plug it in, which it always does. But after unplugging the fast charger and plugging the stock chargers in again, the wheel's fan turned on and stayed on for over a minute, until I unplugged them.

I let the wheel cool off for 5', plugged in the stock chargers again and no fan. Tried the fast charger, no fan. Sounds like either a charger issue, a heat issue, or maybe a bit of both? What I don't understand is why the wheel's fan doesn't turn on when using the fast charger, but it does when using the stock chargers...This has me a bit puzzled... 

You have logged this trials? Then you'd see the reported temprtature.

Temperature is not measured at the BMS/battery but at the mainboard? So temperature rise could be delayed and by this leading to strange fan behaviour?

Maybe the fan is not only triggered by temperature but also by charging current?

5 hours ago, travsformation said:

Hmmm....that's not too reassuring. 😰

Don't worry.

Make logs of full charging process with both chargers. Starting from some lowish % - so one has enough time in the first stage. Let the wheel "coolof" to room temperature before charginh.

And as this is a quite new possibility - keep this logs somewhere safe on your computer! They'll be handy to compare your batteries sometimes later!

Changing the charger every five minutes brings no result, but just leads to confusion while looking in detail at everything

5 hours ago, travsformation said:

What type of overvoltage/overcurrent protection does the BMS have? 

Single cell overvoltage protection (BMS charge input cut off)

Short circuit/overcurrent protection (for the BMS output! - not at the charge side)

The overall battery voltage is just monitored from the motherboard (overvoltage alarm going downhill) - don't know if this is active while charging? Could not remember of any report - but could easily be that there are (as good as) no chargers with such too high voltage.

And now, starting with the KS18(X)L charging current is measured, too - but again by firmware on the motherboard and not by the BMS. Afaik there are just this warning beeps at 6A (depending on wheel and firmware..) but no other action.

[travsformation]

4 hours ago, buell47 said:

Wow, I'm surprised that you never read about this damn beeping safety feature. 

Don't worry, all is fine. More later..... 

I'd read 2.02's release notes, which only say "Optimize charging management. Resume charging after the power drops if do not unplug the charger for a long time", and a few comments on it beeping several hours after it had finished charging, or about the wheel staying on after charging had done and beeping when it switched off, or needing to be manually switched on and off again after charging, but nothing about it being a safety feature. Since it had never done it to me I figured it was a strange KS quirk having to do with the FW behaving different with different motherboards. 😅

Sidenote: When users who are familiar with a manufacturer's products assume that a new safety feature is in fact a bug due to inconsistent behaviour it's a pretty clear indication that there's a little room for improvement in the FW/SW and documentation departments...   [/sidenote]

I was one of the early adopters of FW 2.02 (installed as soon as it appeared in beta stage on SoftTuner), so I've been using it for over 2 months now, with this same charger, and it had never done this before. My first reaction when I heard it beeping was to check the charger voltage/amperage, and 5.65A on the charger itself and 5.9A on EUC.W were beyond ordinary parameters, so I figured the wheel might actually be beeping for a legit reason for a change 

[travsformation]

4 hours ago, stephen said:

I've been using my 5amp charger for all of my 84v wheels, using it on the 16x has always been ok until i updated it to firmware 2.02 and it beeps now and again ,i just ignore it though wether that's wise or not 🤔 

Not too sure that's a good idea, especially based on @Chriull's comments that there's no overcurrent protection on the charging side. If in doubt, lower the charger's output or switch chargers, li-ion fires are no joke... This is what a 1100 mAh battery exploding looks like, so imagine if your 16X's batteries caught fire...

Disclaimer: I'm not trying to be alarmist, I just think it's worth noting that the li-ion batteries our wheels pack are not without their safety risks, and those risks shouldn't be taken lightly, which is particularly relevant to this thread in that the highest risk is when charging them...

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by travsformation

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

42 minutes ago, travsformation said:

I'd read 2.02's release notes, which only say "Optimize charging management. Resume charging after the power drops if do not unplug the charger for a long time", and a few comments on it beeping several hours after it had finished charging, or about the wheel staying on after charging had done and beeping when it switched off, or needing to be manually switched on and off again after charging, but nothing about it being a safety feature. Since it had never done it to me I figured it was a strange KS quirk having to do with the FW behaving different with different motherboards. 😅

Sidenote: When users who are familiar with a manufacturer's products assume that a new safety feature is in fact a bug due to inconsistent behaviour it's a pretty clear indication that there's a little room for improvement in the FW/SW and documentation departments...   [/sidenote]

I was one of the early adopters of FW 2.02 (installed as soon as it appeared in beta stage on SoftTuner), so I've been using it for over 2 months now, with this same charger, and it had never done this before. My first reaction when I heard it beeping was to check the charger voltage/amperage, and 5.65A on the charger itself and 5.9A on EUC.W were beyond ordinary parameters, so I figured the wheel might actually be beeping for a legit reason for a change 

In FW 1.0.7 the alarm was introduced that it beeps when the current is higher than about 5.19A. Since every 5A (eWheels / 1radwerkstatt) has a different tollerance, it happened that not everyone got the benefit of this wonderful alarm.
That was the reason why I put a switch between the buzzer a long time ago.
I think I was the first one who noticed it and started to bitch. The request to KS to at least raise it to 5.5A was apparently taken into account in 2.0.2, as the bitching then came from many sides and KS couldn't take it anymore.
But in the meantime I have an adjustable 12A charger for on the go, so raising the alarm to 5.5 or 6A doesn't do anything for me, because I charge with 8-9A on tour. So the switch was not installed for nothing.

My 1radwerkstatt fast charger charges with max. 5.19A. Why yours delivers so much more ampere I cannot tell you. I would be happy as long as the charger does not break down because of too much load.

At 5.65 - 6A charging current I wouldn't worry, except maybe about the charging port, since you only use a single Lenovo plug. Maybe you should also make a Y-adapter and be happy about your charger. If you're not in a hurry, you don't have to charge at full current overnight, unless you want to go to bed in time and not leave the wheel unattended. I can only recommend 2 things...a switch and a Y-adapter.

Edited July 6, 2020 by buell47

[NOSFET Electric Dreams]

On 7/6/2020 at 10:35 AM, travsformation said:

P.S. @Jack King Song is the 16X trying to tell me anything specific when beeping while charging? Does it mean "beware, something isn't right", or do these periodic quick, double-beeps indicate anything specific? Thanks! 

These beeps can indicate these things when charging:

over current

over voltage

You can use the app to see what the issue might be. 
 

[travsformation]

12 hours ago, Jack King Song said:

These beeps can indicate these things when charging:

over current

over voltage

You can use the app to see what the issue might be. 
 

Thanks, Jack 

[travsformation]

Thanks for the thorough explanation, @buell47 !!!

I wrote to 1radwerkstatt explaining the above and they said that while charging at the amperage the charger is delivering isn't a problem for the wheel (although doing so on a single port isn't ideal, as you said), there's definitely something wrong with it, so I'll be sending it back for them to fix/replace it, as misbehaviour can lead to further, more serious misbehaviour, which isn't something I fancy risking. 

In the meantime, I'll just use 2X stock chargers.

Looking for the parts to make the Y-adapter, I've found this, but the cable section seems much too thin. Do you happen to remember where you bought the part? Or did you only use the connector and use your own wiring? Otherwise, maybe I could ask 1rad to make me one in exchange for the hassle of having to ship the charger back (or just pay for them to make me one, I'm comfortable working the 12V system in my RV, or tinkering with low-voltage electronics, but not too confident about applying my DIY skills to the charge-related side of my EUCs).

[Seba]

On 7/6/2020 at 12:46 PM, travsformation said:

This is what a 1100 mAh battery exploding looks like, so imagine if your 16X's batteries caught fire...

Li-Ion is a common name for batteries that may use different chemistries. Battery shown on this movie is using the most unsafe LCO chemistry and doesn't have any BMS circuitry. Even small mechanical stress may cause so-called LiPo battery to catch in fire. At the same time battery of your KS-16X is protected by BMS and is using NMC chemistry that is way more safe than inherently dangerous LCO.

Just take a look at the datasheet and read more about cells used in KS-16X and their safety testing protocol - https://www.tme.eu/Document/f9d93f9cb60fa6eb0a4caf9df5c96711/ACCU-INR18650-35E.pdf - they can be overcharged with 12 V (while 4.2 V is normally max) and 10 A (while 2 A is normally max) for 7 hours. If will of course pop out and vent, but no fire or explosion may occur (see 9.1).

33 minutes ago, travsformation said:

I wrote to 1radwerkstatt explaining the above and they said that while charging at the amperage the charger is delivering isn't a problem for the wheel (although doing so on a single port isn't ideal, as you said), there's definitely something wrong with it, so I'll be sending it back for them to fix/replace it, as misbehaviour can lead to further, more serious misbehaviour, which isn't something I fancy risking. 

I don't think you have to worry about anything. KS-16X battery pack is using 20S6P configuration what means that 6 A of charging current will result in more or less 1 A of charging current per cell. This is way less than standard charging current set by Samsung (cell manufacturer) at 1.7 A. Some discrepancies between current readout on charger meter and app are also completely normal. Both metering circuits are not very precise, but this doesn't pose any safety risks. Also you don't have to worry about battery heating. Trust me - 1 A per cell is a way less that current flowing during normal riding and even then it doesn't cause any risk. Actually, KS-16X batteries are rated for continuous discharge current of 48 A (6 x 8 A per cell). Fourty eight times more! And there is no difference if current is flowing out or into the battery - temperature rise is relative to currrent value, regardless of flow direction. It's just a result of internal resistance and current. Trust me, power losses in battery cells are negligible. 6 A is nothing for the battery. Wiring, BMS and motherboard components are also safe at this current level.

While current is flowing thru some circuit on the mainboard, this current will cause components of this circuit to heat. This raises board temperature, causing fan to start above some threshold (IIRC fan starts as low as 45 degrees). Again, nothing to worry about  

The only thing you should check after some time from charging start is a temperature of Lenovo charging plug. In general, it's rated for about 4 A each. This however doesn't mean that any current above this value will cause this connector to fail immediately. There is quite big safety margin, so while it's not getting too hot, one hour of charging with 6 A should not make any harm. But it's wise to check it with your hand if it's not going too hot. It may be warm, but not hot.

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

7 hours ago, travsformation said:

Looking for the parts to make the Y-adapter, I've found this, but the cable section seems much too thin. Do you happen to remember where you bought the part?

Yes, the cables are very thin, so I kept them very short with 10 cm. But as far as I know, the wire cross section is sufficient for 5A at this length. 

Since the original Lenovo plugs with cable have a wrong pin assignment, you have to cut open such adapter cables and change them. I glued them with super glue and put shrinking tube over them. 

Plugs without cables are also available, but I wanted to have one with the connector sheathing.

https://a.aliexpress.com/_d7XUYMI

https://a.aliexpress.com/_dZPSInG

 

[travsformation]

Thanks @buell47 !!!

[phatmike]

Do you know if the red light (sometimes is on sometimes is off) on the upper part of the wheel is related with the charging? Thank you

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

Yes it is. If you don't disconnect the charger in a certain time after the full charge, the control board is in  standby is draining slowly the battery (red light is on). 

You have to power cycle the wheel to power it off completely. 

It's not a bug, but a safety feature since firmware 1.0.7. 

[HarpMudd]

I'm still on firmware v1.05 and don't experience any beeping charging at 5A. This was one of the reasons I never upgraded the firmware. While on long rides, I wanted to be able to go into a public place, fast-charge and not draw attention from everyone in the place!

[travsformation]

1 hour ago, HarpMudd said:

I'm still on firmware v1.05 and don't experience any beeping charging at 5A. This was one of the reasons I never upgraded the firmware. While on long rides, I wanted to be able to go into a public place, fast-charge and not draw attention from everyone in the place!

Yeah, it looks like FW 1.05 is the only one that doesn't beep...