I updated my 16X to FW 1.07

[Mike Sacristan]

I updated to FW 1.07 yesterday and did extensive testing yesterday and today.

Speed and throttling:

On FW 1.05 I rarely hit 50 kmh. I really have to push the soft tiltback and I am not a big fan of that.
Also I have only been able to reach 50 kmh with a pretty fresh battery. As voltage drops I then get stuck at 48, 47 and eventually down to 45 kmh soft tiltback. This would continue down to 72V. I would rarely push on the soft tiltback at FW 1.05 because I was unsure about the power reserves. This is something that nagged me more and more as time has passed because it has stopped me from pushing the wheel (and myself). FW 1.07 is similar but with once difference:

When I was at 75v I pushed a bit on the soft tiltback to see what would happen. So instead of riding the soft tiltback gently I went into a more medium-aggressive lean on the pedals. It was still quiet. I then hit some bumps and at that point it did 4 beeps in quick succession. It only did this once and this is the 88% overpower alarm. Once the bumps were gone it was quiet again. This was a huge relief for me because it was the missing link I was looking for.

At the skate park I smacked too aggressively into a high climb and the wheel let out a high amp warning. It has done this in 1.05 as well.

On my way home today I was doing 30kmh at below 64v. It was letting off battery alarms and medium tiltback.
I then went up a 22 degree ramp and it didn't make a sound.

During the very last halv V under load I was still doing 20kmh and also throwing my body back and forth on the wheel to see if I could get it to do the 4 beeps at me which it did a couple of times.

The numbers above where not achievable going up slight inclines as the 16x loses some speed there.
Also I don't have data for below 70v on the 16X with FW 1.05 as I rarely went that low. 34kmh at 67v is good enough for me.

Range: I did 73km. Temperature was +3C. Riding weight was 69.5kg. This was spread out over 2 days. 50km yesterday.

Lights: There are more light modes for the headlight. And rear indicators for turning. Nice features.

Charging: I am currently charging with a 1Radwerkstatt charger which tends to charge between 5.0A and 5.1x A. The wheel is quiet and has been for an hour now.

Climbing: Feels the same. Perhaps a tiny bit harder.

Pedals: Feels the same. Perhaps a tiny bit stiffer.

Acceleration and braking: Feels smoother. So what does this mean as many have said it before... It feels less jerky. Any spikes and irregularities in body movement or pedal movement seems to be smoothened out. This makes acceleration and braking easier for me. It was too twitchy before and cause me to wobble. Also it being a 16X wheel one would expect some crazy acceleration from it. Simon (18 XL), Thomas (MSX) and I did a drag race when I was on FW 1.05. We are all even. I accelerated harder than I usually do. I have way more riding time and experience than Simon and Thomas put together. But the 16X holds me back. Now with smoother 1.07 acceleration AND a 88% warning AND a high amp warning maybe I can finally push the wheel. However it was quite interesting that the 16X did not have a clear advantage when it comes to acceleration and that was against 18" wheels. So because of that little drag race I felt that there was no big loss in upgrading to FW 1.07. The wheel is less twitchy now and I feel more relaxed on it. Some of this could be in my mind as well of course.

Final words:

1.07 feels safer and more mature. It feels smoother and more robust. I think at this point the 16X is quite a mature product.

I did not use the speakers but I might further on.

Let me know if I missed anything or if you would like me to to do some more tests.

Day 1 of riding

 

Day 2 of riding

 

Final thoughts / review

 

Edited November 17, 2019 by Mike Sacristan
explained why table for 1.05 is incomplete and updated with battery percentage

[RetroThruster]

All great info, I'm still new and have no issue with mine on 1.07, I only rode briefly at 1.05 before the update and I didn't know beans at that point anyways.  I appreciate the detailed analysis between the 2 firmware and enjoy your videos, folks like you make learning a lot more fun (and safe)!

[Mike Sacristan]

1 hour ago, RetroThruster said:

All great info, I'm still new and have no issue with mine on 1.07, I only rode briefly at 1.05 before the update and I didn't know beans at that point anyways.  I appreciate the detailed analysis between the 2 firmware and enjoy your videos, folks like you make learning a lot more fun (and safe)!

Thank you so much for the kind reply. 

I understand people being cautious after the 1.06 update but 1.07 is great. I'm shocked that I was still able to ride 30 kmh at such low voltage.
I recorded the update, the testing/riding, my impressions and also a final review.
It turned out to be a ton of footage so I will split it into three parts so that people don't die watching it.

Hope you are enjoying your wheel!

 

[Aneta]

4 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

On my way home today I was doing 30kmh at below 64v. It was letting off battery alarms and medium tiltback.
I then went up a 22 degree ramp and it didn't make a sound.

This is interesting. What was the voltage on the 22-degree ramp after is was 3.2V/cell at 30kph? And what was the resting voltage then? (i.e. what was the sag in each situation) One would expect that 22-degree slope (40% grade - as the steepest street in San Francisco!) would cause much more sag than flat 30kph, and battery won't be able to provide so much power at such low voltage.

[Mike Sacristan]

38 minutes ago, Aneta said:

This is interesting. What was the voltage on the 22-degree ramp after is was 3.2V/cell at 30kph? And what was the resting voltage then? (i.e. what was the sag in each situation) One would expect that 22-degree slope (40% grade - as the steepest street in San Francisco!) would cause much more sag than flat 30kph, and battery won't be able to provide so much power at such low voltage.

After doing the 22 degree ramp which is only 3 meters the wheel showed 63.07v.
The wheel pulled around 14A on the ramp which coincides quite well with 30kmh on flats I believe.
Then I rode the remaining 500 meters home.
I didn't let it get to resting voltage as it didn't seem relevant.

The ramp can be seen here (time embedded in YouTube url 11:56):

 

[Lylesgold]

Sending a big thank you.

In particular, when my attempt to update a new 16x from 1.05 using an iPhone failed, it bricked the control board before I even got to try out the wheel!

The dealer (eWheels USA) sent a replacement board that was already at 1.06, so that's what I'm riding. I'm told this occurs when updating maybe one in a hundred King Song wheels, hence my reluctance to update again, I don't have access to an Android phone.

I was going to leave it until the next King Song app iteration, but who knows when that will happen, so on the strength of your, and others experience, I'm going to give it a go.

Thanks for your excellent videos, I really appreciate your using YouTube to encourage skill building rather than for showing off - that's very helpful and refreshing.

[Mike Sacristan]

Just added 3 clips to the original post and adjusted the table to include percentage.

The last 10 minutes of Day 2 are probably the most relevant for most riders who are worried about the range at the end of the battery.

Any Voltage (V) stated by me can be in the clips can be recalculated to percentage by using V-63*5 = %.

[Mike Sacristan]

1 hour ago, Lylesgold said:

Sending a big thank you.

In particular, when my attempt to update a new 16x from 1.05 using an iPhone failed, it bricked the control board before I even got to try out the wheel!

The dealer (eWheels USA) sent a replacement board that was already at 1.06, so that's what I'm riding. I'm told this occurs when updating maybe one in a hundred King Song wheels, hence my reluctance to update again, I don't have access to an Android phone.

I was going to leave it until the next King Song app iteration, but who knows when that will happen, so on the strength of your, and others experience, I'm going to give it a go.

Thanks for your excellent videos, I really appreciate your using YouTube to encourage skill building rather than for showing off - that's very helpful and refreshing.

Thank you so much! I really appreciate your comment! I like breaking things down and analysing them so it's a good way for me to vent haha.

Wow it failed the FW update with an iPhone? That's crazy!  Sorry to hear that.
I'm pretty sure 1.06 is just fine despite the early throttling. KingSong should just put a toggle on the firmware:

Advanced (I am ready to kill myself)
Safe (Please let me live)

And leave it at that. The 4 beep overpower / 88% alarm is great.

Also you bought your wheels from eWheels and Jason is known for giving excellent support. You should definitely update to 1.07 and use your wheel the way it is meant to be used.

The process was painless anyway. My friend Simon tried to update his 18XL with his android and it took a few tries, failed attempts, quitting the app and even rebooting the wheel. That could have gone bad.

Please let me know how it goes!

[Aneta]

1 hour ago, Mike Sacristan said:

After doing the 22 degree ramp which is only 3 meters the wheel showed 63.07v.
The wheel pulled around 14A on the ramp which coincides quite well with 30kmh on flats I believe.
Then I rode the remaining 500 meters home.
I didn't let it get to resting voltage as it didn't seem relevant.

The ramp can be seen here (time embedded in YouTube url 11:56):

 

Something is terribly wrong with the numbers in their app. 37 watts going up 40% grade? Even 14 amps is unrealistic, on this slope it should be 40-50 amps even for a light rider. At 22 degrees, even if total weight is only 80kg, it must produce 30kg of thrust!

1.07 reporting incorrect telemetry to the app? Or it's the app that is bad? What does Wheellog say?

Edited November 17, 2019 by Aneta

[Dubardo]

Here I'm still on 1.06 since the beginning, I guess I really missed the boat. Still enjoyed it for 450km! You gave me the courage to upgrade to 1.07. I'll try it this week when the weather gets a little better.

[stephen]

42 minutes ago, Dubardo said:

Here I'm still on 1.06 since the beginning, I guess I really missed the boat. Still enjoyed it for 450km! You gave me the courage to upgrade to 1.07. I'll try it this week when the weather gets a little better.

1.07 is miles better than 1.06 deffo do the upgrade👍

[Mike Sacristan]

17 hours ago, Aneta said:

Something is terribly wrong with the numbers in their app. 37 watts going up 40% grade? Even 14 amps is unrealistic, on this slope it should be 40-50 amps even for a light rider. At 22 degrees, even if total weight is only 80kg, it must produce 30kg of thrust!

1.07 reporting incorrect telemetry to the app? Or it's the app that is bad? What does Wheellog say?

Don't worry about it Aneta (or Lada Paglia I don't know what to call you).
Kingsong wheels report amps differently. The values seem very low compared to Gotway.
For instance, when my friend Tobbe gets on his Nikola 100v he gets an 90 amp alarm.
If I get 24 amps on my 16x then I get an amp alarm and that is when I smack aggressively into a 33 degree incline.

The wheel will only report X value and the app (regardless of app) will mirror that value.

[Mike Sacristan]

5 hours ago, Dubardo said:

Here I'm still on 1.06 since the beginning, I guess I really missed the boat. Still enjoyed it for 450km! You gave me the courage to upgrade to 1.07. I'll try it this week when the weather gets a little better.

Do it man! Just got home from a 65km ride and it was great!
And like you say... good that you did 1.06 for 450km. There's no going back so it is interesting and educational to try the different firmwares in the only way we can. Unless we sign up for firmware testing like Stephen did.

[Aneta]

47 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Don't worry about it Aneta (or Lada Paglia I don't know what to call you).
Kingsong wheels report amps differently. The values seem very low compared to Gotway.
For instance, when my friend Tobbe gets on his Nikola 100v he gets an 90 amp alarm.
If I get 24 amps on my 16x then I get an amp alarm and that is when I smack aggressively into a 33 degree incline.

The wheel will only report X value and the app (regardless of app) will mirror that value.

Yes, some wheels report battery current (like my GT16), while others report phase current. Phase current is usually much higher than battery current. 14A is impossibly low even for battery current, to go up a 40% grade. No wheel can do that only on 14A, for that it would need to have magnets something like 100mm wide, or have a geared motor. We can't analyze numbers if we don't know where these numbers come from. 14A is such a case.

[Mike Sacristan]

This was on a 33 degree slope and I got three beeps in rapid succession.
I think 24 is the trigger on the 16X.

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

1 hour ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Don't worry about it Aneta (or Lada Paglia I don't know what to call you).

 

This is the biggest question here. How long can the spectacle last?

Are actually obvious copyright infringements in the forum okay? 

https://www.google.com/search?q=Lada+Paglia&newwindow=1&client=tablet-android-samsung&source=android-browser&prmd=ivsn&sxsrf=ACYBGNSacC3zPLbZ33uA8L5uGw20zyeikg:1574022993579&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj-5pnLjPLlAhXBLFAKHdk3Co8Q_AUoAXoECA0QAQ&biw=1024&bih=768&dpr=2

A free wallpaper picture does not entitle you to use it as your own profile picture. It may be used as a wallpaper, not more. 

@meepmeepmayer

@mrelwood

Edited November 17, 2019 by buell47

[Mike Sacristan]

1 minute ago, buell47 said:

 

This is the biggest question here. How long can the spectacle last?

Are actually obvious copyright infringements in the forum okay? 

@meepmeepmayer

@mrelwood

[Aneta]

44 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

This was on a 33 degree slope and I got three beeps in rapid succession.
I think 24 is the trigger on the 16X.

33 degrees is 65% grade, or 44kg of thrust for 80kg total weight. Can any wheel actually do it?

[Mike Sacristan]

9 minutes ago, Aneta said:

33 degrees is 65% grade, or 44kg of thrust for 80kg total weight. Can any wheel actually do it?

Indeed. And more. Tesla, MSX and 18XL can do it as well. Perhaps not from a standstill but I was hardly struggling.

Check out the post below which includes a break down, a link to my clip and time stamps to all the relevant parts and information.

[Aneta]

18 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Indeed. And more. Tesla, MSX and 18XL can do it as well. Perhaps not from a standstill but I was hardly struggling.

Check out the post below which includes a break down, a link to my clip and time stamps to all the relevant parts and information.

Well, that's not sustained, it's only 1m (if even that) of elevation at 33 degrees with substantial initial speed. 1m of elevation can be gained even with zero power if initial speed is 16kph, just by inertia.

Can you redo this 33 degree test with zero initial speed, and not speeding up from the start-go, but rather just crawl up? That would be a clean test of torque.

Edited November 17, 2019 by Aneta

[Mike Sacristan]

2 hours ago, Aneta said:

Well, that's not sustained, it's only 1m (if even that) of elevation at 33 degrees with substantial initial speed. 1m of elevation can be gained even with zero power if initial speed is 16kph, just by inertia.

Can you redo this 33 degree test with zero initial speed, and not speeding up from the start-go, but rather just crawl up? That would be a clean test of torque.

Try it with a bowling ball and a 33 degree slope. Maybe on the moon.
Or try it with your GT16 it has superior geometry for slopes considering the diameter.

I would never get up 33 degrees with zero initial speed as I would fall of the front of the wheel.

Here is a longer sustained climb at around 17-20 degrees (MSX, 18XL and Tesla did not make it up).
I was already falling off the front of the wheel at this incline.

 

[Aneta]

9 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Try it with a bowling ball and a 33 degree slope. Maybe on the moon.
Or try it with your GT16 it has superior geometry for slopes considering the diameter.

I would never get up 33 degrees with zero initial speed as I would fall of the front of the wheel.

Here is a longer sustained climb at around 17-20 degrees (MSX, 18XL and Tesla did not make it up).
I was already falling off the front of the wheel at this incline.

 

On the Moon the bowling ball launched at 16kph will gain 6 meters of elevation (6x more than on Earth, h = V^2/2g).

On the other hand, I calculated torque for 69kg total weight to go up 40% slope on 17" wheel, it's 80Nm, which is not unheard of for motors with 30mm wide magnets. (although such motors usually have higher-turn count in their windings for more torque - but less speed) So, maybe 16X *is* capable of taking San Francisco-caliber slopes, sustained.

[FrankFilmer]

3 hours ago, buell47 said:

 

This is the biggest question here. How long can the spectacle last?

 

 

He seems to mind his mannors much better when he identifies as the Swedish farmers daughter.   I vote we just let the spectacle continue. 

I really doubt that Lada would mind too terribly much. ☺

Edited November 18, 2019 by FrankFilmer

[RoadRunner]

6 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

I think 24 is the trigger on the 16X

That’s something i don’t understand, why don’t we know about stuff like this 

Kingsong and Gotway should make little booklets for advanced riders with a little more information than don’t lean forward to much.

Come on @Micheal Shen give us some input.

[Mike Sacristan]

7 hours ago, RoadRunner said:

That’s something i don’t understand, why don’t we know about stuff like this 

Kingsong and Gotway should make little booklets for advanced riders with a little more information than don’t lean forward to much.

Come on @Micheal Shen give us some input.

I agree. I even checked the manual and couldn't see any mention of this 3 beep alarm.
Sadly they don't mention beeps and instead mention the voices.

The manual should be updated with beep code translation and also with information regarding the new 88% alarm (4 beeps in quick succession).

https://support.mykingsong.com/article/126-king-song-16x-electric-unicycle-user-manual-ks-16x