16X battery usage in cold weather

[Unventor]

@Mike Sacristan if you call me tomorrow I explain why this is happening.

I am pretty sure the is nothing wrong with your KS16X. In this regard you cannot use battery % for anything. What matters is Volts and Amps reading as you top charge your wheel.

This is also why you see such a difference between 2 wheels. 

Charging litium ion battery is not a linear process. And 2 battery packs are never the same, even from same brand. It never will be. That is the short answer. 

[Mike Sacristan]

1 hour ago, Unventor said:

@Mike Sacristan if you call me tomorrow I explain why this is happening.

I am pretty sure the is nothing wrong with your KS16X. In this regard you cannot use battery % for anything. What matters is Volts and Amps reading as you top charge your wheel.

This is also why you see such a difference between 2 wheels. 

Charging litium ion battery is not a linear process. And 2 battery packs are never the same, even from same brand. It never will be. That is the short answer. 

The battery % shown by Darknessbot corresponds well enough with the voltage.
I have cross checked % and V with the MSX every time I have gone riding with Monika as well.
The 16X always gets slightly better range but marginally.
I started at 82.3V today which Darknessbot translated to 95%. I figured this was good enough for the ~40km cruise that was planned.

I have also done countless comparisons with 18XL, Nikola+, Tesla and my MSX.
Wh is Wh and a wheel is a wheel. There are some variations between wheels and batteries but not half range for same Wh.
Wind resistance causing the largest penalties, then cold, then an under inflated tyre and then weight (extreme cold not accounted for).

I am going to let it sit and charge for a while.
When I charged it last night I did it at 2A with the "quick charger" but as it reads inflated voltage it cuts off early and doesn't do the trickle/balancing.

A rider from Oslo answered in the 16X thread that he rides in single digits and gets the expected 1% per km so I got my answer from someone who rides in similar conditions.
So i'm hoping it was simple unbalance that caused today's problem.

Your time will come! It won't be nice and toasty down in Gothenburg forever. 

Here is a clip from the cruise:

 

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

@Mike Sacristan Did you have the 16X charged overnight in your apartment before the trip yesterday, so that the battery had at least 20°C room temperature?

If you know when you are going on tour, charge the battery next time (possibly timer controlled) so that the charging process is finished just before the tour. Of course with a working 5A Charger or better with 2x 5A charger. I'm not sure if 0.25 C or 0.5C (with 2 Charger) charging rate heat up the battery? 

Finish the charging process already when the charging rate has reached approx. 2A, then the battery should be well preheated inside. Of course it is not completely full, but maybe the preheated battery compensates this, so that you have more range? 

 

 

Edited October 2, 2019 by buell47

[Mike Sacristan]

Just checked the 16X.
Temp is showing 30C.
It's at 83.65V.
I doubt it will go any higher.

[Unventor]

2 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Just checked the 16X.
Temp is showing 30C.
It's at 83.65V.
I doubt it will go any higher.

My KS16X would show 84.5v if I let it sit with the charge in. The last 0.5v can take hours to reach.

The reason for I know this, is I forgot the charging once (happened recently) and the third time I left the charger in to balance the cells, that can take long time (hours). 

I got same V reading in Wheelog and KS app (android) but % was all over the place in Wheelog. 

I know Darknessbot uses a different way of % calculation, so this % is not comparable with other apps. In short their 0% is a different baseline. 

 

Edited October 2, 2019 by Unventor

[Mike Sacristan]

Just came back from a ride.
22km, less than 50% battery left.
I am beginning to suspect that one of the batteries is disconnected or dead.
If it would have been 44km that would have been fine.
I also noticed quite a bit of voltage dipping when monitoring the stats so that would make sense if it is suddenly a 20s3p instead of 20s6p.

I will contact @US69 and see if he can help me out.

[UniVehje]

11 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Just came back from a ride.
22km, less than 50% battery left.
I am beginning to suspect that one of the batteries is disconnected or dead.
If it would have been 44km that would have been fine.
I also noticed quite a bit of voltage dipping when monitoring the stats so that would make sense if it is suddenly a 20s3p instead of 20s6p.

I will contact @US69 and see if he can help me out.

Yep, something's wrong. A few days ago I rode 45 km at 9C temperature and had 59% left on my 18XL (at rest). 

And BTW, balancing charge can take up to 10 hours. It's good to do it in every 10-20 cycles anyway and in any wheel. But your problem is most likely not that. 

[Matthieu Thegrey]

1 hour ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Just came back from a ride.
22km, less than 50% battery left.
I am beginning to suspect that one of the batteries is disconnected or dead.
If it would have been 44km that would have been fine.
I also noticed quite a bit of voltage dipping when monitoring the stats so that would make sense if it is suddenly a 20s3p instead of 20s6p.

I will contact @US69 and see if he can help me out.

I think it is indeed the most evident cause. Just open it up and if you find a non connected battery, don't connect it like this. You must ensure first that both have same voltage.

[Mike Sacristan]

56 minutes ago, Matthieu Thegrey said:

I think it is indeed the most evident cause. Just open it up and if you find a non connected battery, don't connect it like this. You must ensure first that both have same voltage.

Yes, thank you for your post.
I contacted Ulf and he suggested I charge the 16X so we can see how long it takes.
Started at 48% 74.38V at 16:12 using the stock charger. Now we wait.

[Mike Sacristan]

Stock charger:
16:12 - 48% 74.38V
18:50 - 94% 82.4V

2 hours and 38 minutes.
Twice as fast as expected I would say.

I have informed Ulf and am awaiting his response. Hope it's an easy fix and I guess I will be opening the wheel.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Mike Sacristan
corrected time stamps

[Chriull]

38 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Stock charger:

How much ampere does it have?

38 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

16:12 - 48% 74.38V
18:50 - 94% 82.4V

Why just up to 82.4V? Just to stay in the constant current phase or did nothing more "happen"

38 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

2 hours and 38 minutes.
Twice as fast as expected I would say.

Within 158 minutes (2.6h)  with ?2A? there was an average voltage of (74.38+82.4)/2=78.39V. That would be 2.6*2*78.39=408Wh. That's the energy delivered by the charger to the battery.

The battery was charged (very roughly) for 50%. So 100% would be 2*407=814, but the 16x has 1554Wh - about twice of this.

So one pack seems to be offline (if your charging was just while the constant current phase and the charging current was about 2A)

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

The standard charger has 1.5A. But maybe he ordered the 16X with the King Song fast charger with 2.5A?

[Mike Sacristan]

4 hours ago, Chriull said:

How much ampere does it have?

1.5A

4 hours ago, Chriull said:

Why just up to 82.4V? Just to stay in the constant current phase or did nothing more "happen"

Because that was enough and everything after that would be a slow charge and skew the timing that I was trying to do.

4 hours ago, Chriull said:

Within 158 minutes (2.6h)  with ?2A? there was an average voltage of (74.38+82.4)/2=78.39V. That would be 2.6*2*78.39=408Wh. That's the energy delivered by the charger to the battery.

The battery was charged (very roughly) for 50%. So 100% would be 2*407=814, but the 16x has 1554Wh - about twice of this.

So one pack seems to be offline (if your charging was just while the constant current phase and the charging current was about 2A)

Thank you for the calculations. I came to the same conclusion that half was missing and that corresponds with the range and the sag.
So now we know how a 16X with 20S3P ~800Wh performs!
Ulf says they suspect a bad BMS board. They want me to send it in to 1Radwerkstatt to take a look at it.

All good then! At least it wasn't the cold.
Just... something else. Life... and that I can live with. 

Thanks everybody for your help. I will keep the thread updated.

 

[Unventor]

Always fun with a "murder mystery" and detective story. 

I hope you get this sorted out soon @Mike Sacristan.🤞

I am pretty sure my story will be much longer. My KS16X got shipped for service today.😔

I don't have half the luck(battery) you have....😉🤔😏

Edited October 2, 2019 by Unventor

[tessa25]

You might benefit by using one of those bodyguard neoprene covers on cold days.

 

offtopic: What psi do you ride at these days?

[stephen]

1 hour ago, tessa25 said:

You might benefit by using one of those bodyguard neoprene covers on cold days.

Never thought of that when i ordered it 😁 i might get an extra couple of miles due to cosy bodygaurd 😁😁 insulation 👍

[Mike Sacristan]

6 hours ago, tessa25 said:

You might benefit by using one of those bodyguard neoprene covers on cold days.

 

offtopic: What psi do you ride at these days?

Yeah I have been considering it. I will see what happens when I get it back.

I lowered from 30 to 25 and then I lowered to around 21-22.
21-22 was very comfy and really smoothed out the roughest parts.

I did some test riding on that PSI and filmed it... it was a bit too comfy though. And I was going to jump a curb and sort of smacked into it so I pumped it up to 28 just to have laugh. Very stimulating at high PSI the the CX tyre haha. 

Here it is at around 21-22 PSI.

 

[Mike Sacristan]

On 10/3/2019 at 12:23 AM, Mike Sacristan said:

1.5A

Because that was enough and everything after that would be a slow charge and skew the timing that I was trying to do.

Thank you for the calculations. I came to the same conclusion that half was missing and that corresponds with the range and the sag.
So now we know how a 16X with 20S3P ~800Wh performs!
Ulf says they suspect a bad BMS board. They want me to send it in to 1Radwerkstatt to take a look at it.

All good then! At least it wasn't the cold.
Just... something else. Life... and that I can live with. 

Thanks everybody for your help. I will keep the thread updated.

 

So the wheel is in for repairs and a check up.

Here is a quick recap.
I ordered the wheel and received it a few days later on August 22nd.
I felt that for a wheel like the 16X I would not order it from Ali and needed someone to cover my back.
The wheel started getting very short range compared to what I was used to.
After some troubleshooting with @US69 we came to the conclusion that 800WH of the battery wasn't being detected.
I sent the wheel to 1Radwerkstatt.

Big props to 1Radwerkstatt. Their service is amazing and Ulf has been incredibly helpful.
They opened up the wheel and there are no signs of dust, dirt or humidity.



I have been doing quite a bit of off-roading and I have also been caught in the rain a few times.
I did not do excessive long rides in the rain. Rain means time to go home. Heavy rain means search for cover.
I have babied the wheel more than I do my MSX. I have been up crazy hills that other EUCs have not been able to climb.
I have done off-roading similar to what I do with the MSX. I have also done jumps at skate parks. It's a blast.

Here is the culprit:

A blasted plug. So should the fuse go first? Did it short circuit because of a metal shaving or loose connection?
Hard to say. It's a "life happens" thing in my opinion.
I doubt it would have mattered if I would have done anything differently or if I would have been 10 times less or more careful with it.

In the 5 weeks I was riding my 16X I put almost 2000km on it.
As some of you guys know I don't work. I just ride my EUC and hang out with friends and work out.

I love the 16X. It is the most fun wheel I have ever been on. Now I am on my MSX again and the MSX feels great.
Which is proof... that the wheel you love is the wheel you ride and there are different wheels for different feels.
The MSX is a beast but the 16X unlocks new hills and areas that I couldn't reach before.
The 16X is solid as a rock when I ride it and hits 50 kmh with such quickness and stability that it is an incredibly ironic experience.
The Nikola+ takes way much more intent to get over 50kmh and it become less stable at those speed. Also ironic lol.

As some of you guys know I am a very anxious person when it comes to headaches about stuff that I own.
It was such a relief to be able to send it to 1Radwerkstatt and get such excellent service from them.
They are going to do some more investigating while they have the wheel. I have no hurry to get it back as I will be going on vacation (from what though lol) to Barcelona next week.

Thanks for reading and let me know if you have any questions.

[Mike Sacristan]

Got my wheel back yesterday. Everything works as it should.
Big thanks to 1Radwerkstatt, Chris and Ulf for helping me out.

After a few weeks on the MSX I now appreciate the 16X even more.