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King Song 18a 1360wh top speed fall

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esaj    5,302
40 minutes ago, Gimlet said:

As I understand it amps are amps where fuses are concerned,  you have the quick fuses that blow as soon as you exceed the amps and the slow fuses that blow after a set time.

For a long time I was using 12 V 10 amp car fuses in my 220volt control box for my chicken house as the 20 cooling fans needed the slightly longer fuses and car fuses were cheaper than industrial fuses. 

I think the voltage rating of the fuse means that above that voltage, the electricity can still arc through the fuse, ie. it can still conduct. AFAIK, you should always use a fuse of same or higher voltage rating than the "normal" voltage running through it during use, otherwise the fuse might be useless, ie. the filament burns, but it still keeps (at least intermittently?) conducting through arcing.

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Ponne    32
1 hour ago, esaj said:

I think the voltage rating of the fuse means that above that voltage, the electricity can still arc through the fuse, ie. it can still conduct. AFAIK, you should always use a fuse of same or higher voltage rating than the "normal" voltage running through it during use, otherwise the fuse might be useless, ie. the filament burns, but it still keeps (at least intermittently?) conducting through arcing.

You are right, the voltage rating means the max Votage the fuse can safely cut.

If u use a 220V vent at a curent of 10 Amp that gives you 2200 Watt of power. A 12 Volt fuse rated at 10 Amp can safely cut 120 Watt of power.

So when there is a schort circuit u generate a huge arc wich can cause fire or for example burn the contacts toghetter instead of cutting the line.

Edited by Ponne
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dmethvin    1,529
On 7/16/2016 at 11:13 AM, 1RadWerkstatt said:

Many 40A fuses are not correct stamped out and not real 40A....cheap fuse´s cheap quality..this is a world problem thing:P

Fuse Type is complete not correct it works but is technical trash....this type of Fuse have rating for a maximum of 35V

This Type can not handle/ break this Load

7 hours ago, Cloud said:

 I was saying this a while ago, the fuses used are rated for 32 v not 67. The thickness of the metal in the fuse is responsible for amerage it can withstand, buy the type of metal alloy should be suitable for the voltage. Not sure how the fuses rated for 32v will fare under 67 volt conditions

Generally a fuse has a 2x higher rating for AC voltage than DC since the arc will self-extinguish when the AC voltage goes through 0. For an application like this I doubt the use of a 32 volt DC/64 volt AC fuse is going to be a problem at 67 volts DC. At worst they flash over for a while and may physically crack the fuse case but that is the least of your worries--the fuse has already failed and you are about to fall off!

The problem with quality control is a much bigger concern. A good quality fuse like Bussman or Littelfuse will be rated and tested to its promised capacity. If you look at the curves in their data sheets, a 40 amp fuse should even be able to handle even more than 40 amps for sub-second periods of time. No-name Chinese parts are not known for their quality control.

A fuse should be sized to never blow under any load the EUC control board might request during normal operation. When I shunted my wheel I used a 40 amp fuse on each 260Wh pack and can't imagine that anything other than a dead short will draw that much. I would rather have the fuse blow than having the cells explode or melt the wires/control board.

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KingSong69    3,727
On 6. Juli 2016 at 11:33 AM, HEC said:

Interesting - on the pictures all the KS16 wheels have different (or none at all) logos on the side panels ... :huh:

Just to rule out the counterfeit rumour because of the different name "KSwheel" on the side panel:

original Chinese website of kingsong:

 

http://kingsong.com/news/show/id/17.html

 

 

Edited by KingSong69
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checho    125
On 6/21/2016 at 1:39 AM, KingSong69 said:

When a wheel is anounced with 40 kmh....i would think that the "lift off" cut off is 50 kmh at least...

But: Is it possible that because of the 1200W Standard or 3000W Max the safety margin has been cut down to a "Minimum"???

i could be totally wrong...just a thought......

There is no 3000w safety margin

The fuse is rated at 40A, 65v x 40A is 2600W, and even then the bottleneck is the control board which overheats really bad when pushed to the limits.

In city riding the ks18A works great, but on mountains it fails since the control board can not handle the needed amps causing overheating of the control board, and to make things worse the motor is a high speed type not a high torque type, great for city riding but bad on mountains.

To prove there is no 3000w safety margin attach an ampmeter rated for 50A Generate a load on the wheel and it will not reach 45A, not even for a few seconds.

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KingSong69    3,727
1 hour ago, checho said:

There is no 3000w safety margin

The fuse is rated at 40A, 65v x 40A is 2600W, and even then the bottleneck is the control board which overheats really bad when pushed to the limits.

In city riding the ks18A works great, but on mountains it fails since the control board can not handle the needed amps causing overheating of the control board, and to make things worse the motor is a high speed type not a high torque type, great for city riding but bad on mountains.

To prove there is no 3000w safety margin attach an ampmeter rated for 50A Generate a load on the wheel and it will not reach 45A, not even for a few seconds.

I am speaking to KS directly in The Moment because of The low "Lift up" Speed....will inform here if i Know something New!!!

Yeah...You Are totally right about the math!

like i Said in other Threads my KS16 Is in The instruction manual rated with a 2700Watt max...which Is The math max for 40amps...

and not rated with 3000watt like in all promotion.....

what i Can Not agree Is The "high Speed-low torque"...As i am Living in a very hilled Region...it does The hills perfect! 

Sure: temp Is another thing....but since now i have Not come over 50degree...

also i "tried to overlean" on a light uphill...And also straight roads, when accelerating from The standstill start...i leaned about 2-3 Times harder As in my ks14 where i would have meanwhile faceplanted or collapsed The wheel, but:

not possible on The 18 until now...sure it would be in The end ...but i would have to crazy, crazy overlean like Bloody stupid....

So for me:

absolut And unbelievable powerful-a Tank-my little Panzer-or like i Call it: The Mercedes Benz EUC :-)

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KingSong69    3,727

To put it in a Short:

i Love this Wheel! My ks14 i am only using when i have to be Highly "moveable" And go on Bus or Train or both...

as i am NOT in Need to Go higher than 30-32....it's my Perfect "Long ride" or "offroad" EUC....The 14 Feels like a small toy under my feet since i have The 18....

sure: Agility AND Tricks You Are a 100% better on The 14.....but for my Daily Commuting....

KS18 :-)

Edited by KingSong69

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checho    125
26 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

I am speaking to KS directly in The Moment because of The low "Lift up" Speed....will inform here if i Know something New!!!

Yeah...You Are totally right about the math!

like i Said in other Threads my KS16 Is in The instruction manual rated with a 2700Watt max...which Is The math max for 40amps...

and not rated with 3000watt like in all promotion.....

what i Can Not agree Is The "high Speed-low torque"...As i am Living in a very hilled Region...it does The hills perfect! 

Sure: temp Is another thing....but since now i have Not come over 50degree...

also i "tried to overlean" on a light uphill...And also straight roads, when accelerating from The standstill start...i leaned about 2-3 Times harder As in my ks14 where i would have meanwhile faceplanted or collapsed The wheel, but:

not possible on The 18 until now...sure it would be in The end ...but i would have to crazy, crazy overlean like Bloody stupid....

So for me:

absolut And unbelievable powerful-a Tank-my little Panzer-or like i Call it: The Mercedes Benz EUC :-)

I wish it had high torque but it has failed me on steep hills, now I used it only on the city or small hills to prevent the overheating.

The problem is that it is advertized for a max rider weight of 150Kg and a max incline of 30 degrees, and it does not come close to that.

I have tested it on 15 degree slopes and with my weight of 115kg it fails, the same slope with a light rider it works. What I have observed as the weight of the rider increases the efficiency of the wheel decreases expotencially most likely due to the overheating.

You are probably a light rider and do not notice the problem. 

But this problem is reproducible load yourself with about 110kg total weight by using a backup, and then try to go up a 15 degree slope for at least 200 meters on a warm day, I can assure you it will not be possible. As you go up the hill you will also see how quickly the ks18 overheats.

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KingSong69    3,727
5 minutes ago, checho said:

I wish it had high torque but it has failed me on steep hills, now I used it only on the city or small hills to prevent the overheating.

The problem is that it is advertized for a max rider weight of 150Kg and a max incline of 30 degrees, and it does not come close to that.

I have tested it on 15 degree slopes and with my weight of 115kg it fails, the same slope with a light rider it works. What I have observed as the weight of the rider increases the efficiency of the wheel decreases expotencially most likely due to the overheating.

You are probably a light rider and do not notice the problem. 

But this problem is reproducible load yourself with about 110kg total weight by using a backup, and then try to go up a 15 degree slope for at least 200 meters on a warm day, I can assure you it will not be possible. As you go up the hill you will also see how quickly the ks18 overheats.

hmmh...no...unfortunatly i am not a light weight rider :-)

i am exactly 100 kg plus clothes..often i go shopping drinks and load up to 10 kg backpack....and as i sad. have not had problems on slopes until now!

for sure: i recognize that under pure stress...long and steady uphills the wheel gets warm...for me at about max 50 degree and also that it dont likes idling on a point with my weight!

so i also decided to install a 5volt usb-fan on the upside in the future..(or fan2usb 12 volt)..on the way to order 2 fans...one in one out...lets see!

 

So as i am also heavy, i still found the wheel to be extrem powerful...but it can be the wheel gets overproportional less effective on even more weight....

my experiences so far: are all actually KS wheels...14,16,18....and also mcm4 and mcm2s for test rides.....

and the mcm's really got highspeed and brake problems with my massive weight...but in the end:

It is all personal preferences and feelings about each wheel! for me the ks18 is a "hammer"...

 

btw.: isnt it advertised to 120 kg? A good german seller with high reputation is anouncing the 16 and 18 to max 120 kg...and some other wheels like firewheel or ips  just to an 80-90kg margin....but even if 150...i personally think, that my weight or yours is the absolute max...and that we have to take more care than lightweight riders and to accept that we are not in the "range" of normal, lightweighter riders....

...

 

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checho    125
58 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

hmmh...no...unfortunatly i am not a light weight rider :-)

i am exactly 100 kg plus clothes..often i go shopping drinks and load up to 10 kg backpack....and as i sad. have not had problems on slopes until now!

for sure: i recognize that under pure stress...long and steady uphills the wheel gets warm...for me at about max 50 degree and also that it dont likes idling on a point with my weight!

so i also decided to install a 5volt usb-fan on the upside in the future..(or fan2usb 12 volt)..on the way to order 2 fans...one in one out...lets see!

 

So as i am also heavy, i still found the wheel to be extrem powerful...but it can be the wheel gets overproportional less effective on even more weight....

my experiences so far: are all actually KS wheels...14,16,18....and also mcm4 and mcm2s for test rides.....

and the mcm's really got highspeed and brake problems with my massive weight...but in the end:

It is all personal preferences and feelings about each wheel! for me the ks18 is a "hammer"...

 

btw.: isnt it advertised to 120 kg? A good german seller with high reputation is anouncing the 16 and 18 to max 120 kg...and some other wheels like firewheel or ips  just to an 80-90kg margin....but even if 150...i personally think, that my weight or yours is the absolute max...and that we have to take more care than lightweight riders and to accept that we are not in the "range" of normal, lightweighter riders....

...

 

Here is the link where the max rider weigh is 150kg.

http://www.szkingsong.com/en/product_show.php?id=76&lm=60&dlm=0&xlm=60

I have made the temps go over 60C but I do not recommend that since it destroys the control board, and results in a faceplant. I destroyed a control board by the overheating and had a nasty faceplant.

Adding a 5 volt fan is a good idea I have purchased some 5 volt fans Instead of running a cable from the usb port to the fans, i think it is more profesionally if the wiring to the fans it is done internally by accessing the usb port from the inside, i have not found any wiring diagram on how to access the usb port from the inside of the case, even though may not look good an easy way around that problem to get 5v is to connect a cable to the usb port and then run the cable to the inside of the case.

I have already added additional heatsinls to the control board. and the ventilation with fans is to be done

All the wheels that i have fail on hills airwheel x8 does not go up, ninebot e+ starts going up and as momentum is lost speed goes down eventually stopping, ks18A overheats to destruction, the one that does best is ks18 but the overheating is so extreme that it actually ruins the control board.

On smaller hills 8 degrees or less the ks18 works great.

I have retired the ks18 from steep hills it puts a lot of stress on the ks18.

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Stefan    0

I thought the Ks18 has a overheat temperature protection when it reaches 70 degrees celsius? I was going a steep hill up with an outside air temperature of 30 degrees and my app showed 68 degrees. But even at this point functionality was normal! Installing a fan inside of the controller would probably help reducing the tempreature but not sure if rhis is really needed. 

There are some temperature controlled 5v fans on the market so just need to figure out how to connect.

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KingSong69    3,727
10 minutes ago, Stefan said:

I thought the Ks18 has a overheat temperature protection when it reaches 70 degrees celsius? I was going a steep hill up with an outside air temperature of 30 degrees and my app showed 68 degrees. But even at this point functionality was normal! Installing a fan inside of the controller would probably help reducing the tempreature but not sure if rhis is really needed. 

There are some temperature controlled 5v fans on the market so just need to figure out how to connect.

Yip...it has Overheat protection...but if you jump to fast over this 70degree you can damage your board and it is defect forever!

So it is good to have an eye on it...and better take a break if to much

 

There is also a cable called "FAN2USB"..where you can use Fullpower 12V Fans on the USB....

here for example:

https://www.amazon.de/FAN2USB-Lüfter-USB-Adapter-Konverter/dp/B00MNB40ZU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1469807152&sr=8-1&keywords=FAN2USB

 

Edited by KingSong69

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On 6/20/2016 at 4:25 PM, Jurgen said:

If it were a cut-off speed of 25kph, allowing the user to set the max speed to 20kph, that's a 25% safety margin.

With a cut-off speed of 45kph, allowing the user to set the max speed to 40kph, that's just a 12,5% safety margin, at a speed where a lot of things can go wrong???:blink1:

Could just be that the techies have not thought it through, and just raised the speed without adapting the algorithm/design. But why, if the motor is capable of 50kph?

I think it's worthwile investigating before somebody gets killed.

 

 I guess we are going to have to put together a Brush-less DC Motors and Electromagnetic how to book for dummies together.

This is the simple explanation.  When you are starting to turn the wheel you have 67 volts available because the motor coils are basically at 0 volts.  As the wheel spins, the magnets also induce volts back into the coils. So as the wheel spins to higher RPM the voltage induced in the magnets get higher and higher.

So for example at one point the Back EMF voltage is at 40 volts and the Battery level is at 67. That means you only have 27 volts available to put power on the motor.  that is why as you go faster the wheel might feel softer on the pedals.

Now the question is why they shut down the darn PWMs at high speed. It might be that the Back EMF gets high enough that the MOSFET circuit is not designed to survive so they shut it off so the board does not get damaged. But regardless at some point the back EMF could reach the same value at the battery voltage level so basically you have 0 volts available and basically the wheel then has no voltage available to increase the speed any more. You can always brake, because braking does not use battery voltage. At least for passive braking when the MOSFET are switched in such patter to short the coils and use the back EMF for braking force.

So the wheel has less and less volts available as the wheel spins faster until the battery volts are not high enough. That is also why the top speed goes down and the battery is drained.

 

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Dingfelder    889
On 7/28/2016 at 4:50 PM, checho said:

Here is the link where the max rider weigh is 150kg.

http://www.szkingsong.com/en/product_show.php?id=76&lm=60&dlm=0&xlm=60

I have made the temps go over 60C but I do not recommend that since it destroys the control board, and results in a faceplant. I destroyed a control board by the overheating and had a nasty faceplant.

Adding a 5 volt fan is a good idea I have purchased some 5 volt fans Instead of running a cable from the usb port to the fans, i think it is more profesionally if the wiring to the fans it is done internally by accessing the usb port from the inside, i have not found any wiring diagram on how to access the usb port from the inside of the case, even though may not look good an easy way around that problem to get 5v is to connect a cable to the usb port and then run the cable to the inside of the case.

I have already added additional heatsinls to the control board. and the ventilation with fans is to be done

All the wheels that i have fail on hills airwheel x8 does not go up, ninebot e+ starts going up and as momentum is lost speed goes down eventually stopping, ks18A overheats to destruction, the one that does best is ks18 but the overheating is so extreme that it actually ruins the control board.

On smaller hills 8 degrees or less the ks18 works great.

I have retired the ks18 from steep hills it puts a lot of stress on the ks18.

 

 

On 7/28/2016 at 3:25 PM, KingSong69 said:

hmmh...no...unfortunatly i am not a light weight rider :-)

i am exactly 100 kg plus clothes..often i go shopping drinks and load up to 10 kg backpack....and as i sad. have not had problems on slopes until now!

for sure: i recognize that under pure stress...long and steady uphills the wheel gets warm...for me at about max 50 degree and also that it dont likes idling on a point with my weight!

so i also decided to install a 5volt usb-fan on the upside in the future..(or fan2usb 12 volt)..on the way to order 2 fans...one in one out...lets see!

 

So as i am also heavy, i still found the wheel to be extrem powerful...but it can be the wheel gets overproportional less effective on even more weight....

my experiences so far: are all actually KS wheels...14,16,18....and also mcm4 and mcm2s for test rides.....

and the mcm's really got highspeed and brake problems with my massive weight...but in the end:

It is all personal preferences and feelings about each wheel! for me the ks18 is a "hammer"...

 

btw.: isnt it advertised to 120 kg? A good german seller with high reputation is anouncing the 16 and 18 to max 120 kg...and some other wheels like firewheel or ips  just to an 80-90kg margin....but even if 150...i personally think, that my weight or yours is the absolute max...and that we have to take more care than lightweight riders and to accept that we are not in the "range" of normal, lightweighter riders....

...

 

So I read that the Kingsong has a fan now.

Has that made it a more reliable and safer hill climber?  

i weight about what Kingsong69 does and there are plenty of hills where I live too.  I'm pretty keen on getting the KS18 soon, but can't afford to buy expensive wheels and quickly retire them.

 

 

 

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KingSong69    3,727
1 hour ago, Dingfelder said:

 

So I read that the Kingsong has a fan now.

Has that made it a more reliable and safer hill climber?  

i weight about what Kingsong69 does and there are plenty of hills where I live too.  I'm pretty keen on getting the KS18 soon, but can't afford to buy expensive wheels and quickly retire them.

 

 

 

My Ks18 i have since one year now, there are no signs of it getting weak or something! no retirement in sight!

It is pretty powerfull and climbs hills very good! (living in a region called "hilled country")

And the newer versions than mine...18AY...or 18B...are even more powerfull and with bettter temperature management, you can do nothing wrong with this wheel. Yes, my old version got a bit hot sometime....but this prob is long solved. 

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abinder3    393
47 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

My Ks18 i have since one year now, there are no signs of it getting weak or something! no retirement in sight!

It is pretty powerfull and climbs hills very good! (living in a region called "hilled country")

And the newer versions than mine...18AY...or 18B...are even more powerfull and with bettter temperature management, you can do nothing wrong with this wheel. Yes, my old version got a bit hot sometime....but this prob is long solved. 

My 18AY doesn't seem to hot at all. 

 

Allen

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Dingfelder    889

Great, thanks guys.  I started out really keen on the KS18 and am still really interested in it after spending a while reading all the complaints about every model from every manufacturer.  The KS18 seems to have held up in the storm of opinions at least as well as any of the other wheels, by my perception anyway.  It's still looking good to me, but I did need that assurance that it's not going to poop out on hills, which we have plenty of around here.

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meepmeepmayer    2,463

What KS18 models are there? I hear 18A, 18B, sometimes even 18C, and 18AY. I thought only A and AY exist. What different specs exist?

--

@Dingfelder I think KS18 is a great choice. Maybe ACM has more torque for hills, but the 18 has more safety/reliability and if hills/maximum inclines were my primary concern, I'd go for 18 over ACM for that reason. And between msuper V3 and KS18 (so 18 inch) I don't see a reason to go for msuper.

Here's a video by @jrkline (200 lbs or so?) testing the 18 on the hill behind the KS factory.

Here's a light Chinese guy doing extreme incline, the wheel does not break/cut out.

Maybe this helps you. Warning: I have no experience except ACM, so maybe if I tried a KS18 I would miss the torque, don't know. So this is subjective.

Edited by meepmeepmayer

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Dingfelder    889

Thanks meep.  I hadn't seen the second video before.

At about 3:45 he gets off the machine and says, "I don't think it can climb this.  I think there's too much weight."  

When the camera is right up close, it looks really steep.  When it's further away, the hill looks not so steep.  

At about the eight minute mark he goes up a hill that looks about as steep as the one he gave up on earlier.

What impressed me the most was how they were able to get through those muddy, deeply rutted back-country roads.

Edited by Dingfelder

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MaxLinux    914
On 5/5/2017 at 11:15 AM, meepmeepmayer said:

Here's a video by @jrkline (200 lbs or so?) testing the 18 on the hill behind the KS factory.

Very impressive performance by the 18! I noticed at least one of the KS guys was on a 16, which seemed to handle the challenge equally well!

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Bob de Bie    3

Ks 18a 1360wh fore sell I am seling my 2 years old ks18a wheel  going to buy the gotway monster      if you know some one how would like to buy it let me know debie223@gmail.com    

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abinder3    393
On 7/24/2017 at 3:59 AM, Bob de Bie said:

Ks 18a 1360wh fore sell I am seling my 2 years old ks18a wheel  going to buy the gotway monster      if you know some one how would like to buy it let me know debie223@gmail.com    

This should be in the for sale section. 

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