Practice for a Power Shut Off?

[Rehab1]

Has anyone ever practiced for a Power Shut Off? I understand the illimitable scenarios associated with riding that would make it virtually impossible to practice a cut off for every angle, slope, incline and speed encountered when riding but it would be nice to have some form of game plan second natured in my head if the need ever arises. I've had 2 engine cut offs when flying helicopters. The maneuvers to land in these situations was imprinted in my subconscious after repetitive practice. Both choppers sustained heavy damage upon landing but at least I walked away. I would love to practice for a EUC shut off if there is a sound method out there. Thanks!

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Those helicopter autorotations are so cool but scary too.  I had a chance to go for a spin in a Ecostar while on the Big Island a few months ago.  I love helicopters, but I'm no pilot.  Check out these photos in this thread if you get a chance.

I've seen a video of one person practicing in a park.  I think he was just running and then doing some rolls over the shoulder.  The stance that we have on these EUC's is not really that great when the wheel cuts out.  Also the legs can be tired and in a static position for a while so having them jump quickly into action can be tricky.  On a skateboard you could roll towards a grassy area from a parking lot, hit the curb and try to run it off on the grass or do a roll.  Or if you have a piece of wood that's about 3 inches tall you could ride the EUC over grass and hit that to simulate a sudden stop and see how you fair running or rolling that off?

 

[Rehab1]

Omg, fantastic pictures! Thanks! You were in a very safe chopper. Turbines rarely ( I say this loosely) power out. Not like the piston powered versions I had. Thank you for the kind advice. Gives me something to wrap my head around. Suppose you would like a video of me rolling across the ground after hitting the board? Lol

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

  It's so easy to go from hero to zero on these EUC's that one moment you're the coolest and people are watching and in the blink of an eye you're doing a not so graceful scamper off while the wheel topples over.  The trick is to only do that when no one is watching.    Yes do post some practice videos up as we'd all like to see your progress.

Right after I booked my helicopter ride a tour helicopter (maybe an A-star?) crashed in Pearl Harbour killing a Canadian kid.  It was awful, but the pilot did a great job crash landing into the water close to the shore so everyone else survived.   I cancelled my ride the next day, but then after a week or so I ended up rebooking it.  Luckily everything went fine, but Google can be your enemy too as I did read about a few Ecostar crashes and one autorotation... kinda frightening, but hey you only live once right? 

Here's the Ecostar we took:

[steve454]

You could just overlean at slow speed and the motor will give out.  I have thought about knowing what it's like to have a shut off too.  I might try it on grass, try to speed up faster than the wheel can handle, and hopefully at low speed.  But am wondering if overlean cutout might damage the controller.

[Rehab1]

3 hours ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said:

  It's so easy to go from hero to zero on these EUC's that one moment you're the coolest and people are watching and in the blink of an eye you're doing a not so graceful scamper off while the wheel topples over.  The trick is to only do that when no one is watching.    Yes do post some practice videos up as we'd all like to see your progress.

Right after I booked my helicopter ride a tour helicopter (maybe an A-star?) crashed in Pearl Harbour killing a Canadian kid.  It was awful, but the pilot did a great job crash landing into the water close to the shore so everyone else survived.   I cancelled my ride the next day, but then after a week or so I ended up rebooking it.  Luckily everything went fine, but Google can be your enemy too as I did read about a few Ecostar crashes and one autorotation... kinda frightening, but hey you only live once right? 

Here's the Ecostar we took:

I remember seeing that on the news! The kid was around 16. It was a Bell 206. Pilot attempted to land after hearing a grinding sound but the area he picked had people standing around so he ditched in the water. Poor child drown. I bet that was a tough decision on your part to go for a ride. Sure was tough on the pilot!

There is only enough rotor inertia to attempt one auto let alone 2. After that you are at the mercy . Sure his rotor RPMs  diminished to a point where they stalled. My Bell 47 have great auto rotation capabilities due to the heavy blades and rotor system. The other home built versions I owned were terrible. Dropped like a streamlined anvil.

[Rehab1]

3 hours ago, steve454 said:

You could just overlean at slow speed and the motor will give out.  I have thought about knowing what it's like to have a shut off too.  I might try it on grass, try to speed up faster than the wheel can handle, and hopefully at low speed.  But am wondering if overlean cutout might damage the controller.

That might work! Unfortunately with my luck I will not be going slow. Please do not ruin your EUC to test your theory. I have a set of parallel bars at my facility that I might practice on.  I can hold on to both bars and have someone cut the power at the switch. Still not sure what i am going to accomplish. Maybe I worry to much?

[Mono]

I would believe there are two parts. One part is to train falling. Despite my (short) history in martial arts I don't know what the best technique is and I doubt there is enough evidence out there that anybody could know. The best technique will likely to some extend depend on the specific crash situation and most likely depend on the type of protection gear you are wearing. One EUC-specific aspect might be that bending the knees and thereby gaining better control and lowering the center of mass helps in any critical situation to reduce injury risk. The other part is to be unsurprised when the wheel fails. I can imagine that it helps to get a feel for the wheel when it is turned off and, say, one tries to mount and accelerate normally (which is of course not possible). Be careful with this exercise though, as it already feels pretty violent and can lead to a rough faceplant even with zero speed to start with.

[steve454]

I am thinking this now,@euc extreme probably has more experience than anyone with running off cutouts.  In several of the videos of him riding he runs off of overleans and hitting rocks and uneven ground.  If someone could put together a video of him running off of cutouts it would be invaluable.

[Rehab1]

1 hour ago, Niko said:

I would believe there are two parts. One part is to train falling. Despite my (short) history in martial arts I don't know what the best technique is and I doubt there is enough evidence out there that anybody could know. The best technique will likely to some extend depend on the specific crash situation and most likely depend on the type of protection gear you are wearing. One EUC-specific aspect might be that bending the knees and thereby gaining better control and lowering the center of mass helps in any critical situation to reduce injury risk. The other part is to be unsurprised when the wheel fails. I can imagine that it helps to get a feel for the wheel when it is turned off and, say, one tries to mount and accelerate normally (which is of course not possible). Be careful with this exercise though, as it already feels pretty violent and can lead to a rough faceplant even with zero speed to start with.

Thanks Niko! Karate here as well....30 years ago! No problem breaking chopsticks. Yes bending the knees is a given when I ride. That would make it easier for my body (and face) to contort into some form of rolling action that would hopefully soften the injuries. Full body gear like EUC Extreme wears probably is the safest route. The guy bounces off trees! OR.. invent a ECU-AB ( airbag)?

[Rehab1]

1 hour ago, steve454 said:

I am thinking this now,@euc extreme probably has more experience than anyone with running off cutouts.  In several of the videos of him riding he runs off of overleans and hitting rocks and uneven ground.  If someone could put together a video of him running off of cutouts it would be invaluable.

After watching @EUC Extreme videos you are probably right! He would be the perfect teacher! Hopefully he will respond. Next question: Do any companies offer full body gear with air conditioning?

[The Fat Unicyclist]

5 hours ago, Rehab1 said:

OR.. invent a ECU-AB ( airbag)?

Do you mean something like this? 

http://www.hovding.com

[Tilmann]

Took me a while to dig it up, but here's some great advice on the subject of "being prepared to fall" from @dpong:

@Rehab1, @HunkaHunkaBurningLove : had some flight training on R22 (tiny heli with piston engine) on Big Island loooong ago and countless autorotations in the process. The instructors were also doing sight seeing tours with tourists. One of them confessed to me, that he was practicing autorotations on a regular basis during tourist flights when descending into the steep canyons on the east side of the island. While I'm sure that was highly illegal, he for one was definitely prepared for when the time comes ... 

[AlanR]

I had 2 face-plants with my first generic EUC. First at almost zero speed climbing a tiny curb - the EUC just flew backwards; there was absolutely no chance to shoulder roll etc because the body just fell straight down!

The second fall was at about 15 kph when I clipped a bollard; again the wheel flew out from under me and I went down with momentum causing me to continue forward motion  until my wrist guards contacted the pavement. The plastic material wore down below the rivet heads ~2 mm!

I was a gymnast and rolling etc is second nature but my EUC fails didn't give any time to take evasive action.

Just a thought - placing a large block to hit as suggested by @HunkaHunkaBurningLovemay not replicate level ground fails because you will be anticipating the event?

[steve454]

EUC Extreme just posted a new video on Youtube that shows some runoffs.  One he hits a big rock and gets thrown forward.  Also has some long slides, great video.

[Rehab1]

4 hours ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

Do you mean something like this? 

http://www.hovding.com

Wow, you are awesome! Who would have thought? Do you know of anyone that has tried this device? Kind of looks like a soft neck brace that attorneys empirically  recommend for their clients wear after a 1 MPH auto accident. I need to check into this. Hope it is not built by Takata, the airbag company that has thousand of lawsuits for failures resulting in deaths.  Attorneys love these guys?

46 minutes ago, steve454 said:

EUC Extreme just posted a new video on Youtube that shows some runoffs.  One he hits a big rock and gets thrown forward.  Also has some long slides, great video.

I will check it! Thanks!

[Rehab1]

1 hour ago, AlanR said:

I had 2 face-plants with my first generic EUC. First at almost zero speed climbing a tiny curb - the EUC just flew backwards; there was absolutely no chance to shoulder roll etc because the body just fell straight down!

The second fall was at about 15 kph when I clipped a bollard; again the wheel flew out from under me and I went down with momentum causing me to continue forward motion  until my wrist guards contacted the pavement. The plastic material wore down below the rivet heads ~2 mm!

I was a gymnast and rolling etc is second nature but my EUC fails didn't give any time to take evasive action.

Just a thought - placing a large block to hit as suggested by @HunkaHunkaBurningLovemay not replicate level ground fails because you will be anticipating the event?

Wow..If your wrist guards wore down to the rivets when sliding then I can only imagine that without guards those rivets would surely have simulated exposed bones. You being a gymnast with extensive training in rolling and still not being able to take evasive action is troubling. I guess my idea of training for this is slowly diminishing.

[dmethvin]

I am not convinced that you can practice for a true shutoff. I've had several close calls with balance due to hitting potholes, uneven pavement, or the pedals scraping something. For most of those I've managed to run off or at least gently roll onto the ground with no scrapes or hard contact. Once I overleaned into to the point of shutoff, and the problem is that when you're going that fast and already leaning forward there is no opportunity to get your feet out in front of you because you're already at a 45-degree angle with the ground. You are going DOWN!

[Rehab1]

4 hours ago, Tilmann said:

Took me a while to dig it up, but here's some great advice on the subject of "being prepared to fall" from @dpong:

@Rehab1, @HunkaHunkaBurningLove : had some flight training on R22 (tiny heli with piston engine) on Big Island loooong ago and countless autorotations in the process. The instructors were also doing sight seeing tours with tourists. One of them confessed to me, that he was practicing autorotations on a regular basis during tourist flights when descending into the steep canyons on the east side of the island. While I'm sure that was highly illegal, he for one was definitely prepared for when the time comes ... 

 

4 hours ago, Tilmann said:

Took me a while to dig it up, but here's some great advice on the subject of "being prepared to fall" from @dpong:

@Rehab1, @HunkaHunkaBurningLove : had some flight training on R22 (tiny heli with piston engine) on Big Island loooong ago and countless autorotations in the process. The instructors were also doing sight seeing tours with tourists. One of them confessed to me, that he was practicing autorotations on a regular basis during tourist flights when descending into the steep canyons on the east side of the island. While I'm sure that was highly illegal, he for one was definitely prepared for when the time comes ... 

The infamous Robinson R22. Yep they are streamline anvils as well. R44 are much better. The turbine tour helicopters are easy beasts to fly with their correlated collectives. Pull up/ push down the collective and the RPMs remain constant. Passengers would never know if the pilot was practicing autos. I believe the Robinson, even though piston, has some sort of mechanical correlation with the collective. My Bell 47 had none. I had to rely on variations in engine noise to determine rotor under or over speeds so I could never wear noise cancelling headsets. I always envied the turbine pilots as their work load was easy.

[Rehab1]

53 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

Wow, you are awesome! Who would have thought? Do you know of anyone that has tried this device? Kind of looks like a soft neck brace that attorneys empirically  recommend for their clients wear after a 1 MPH auto accident. I need to check into this. Hope it is not built by Takata, the airbag company that has thousand of lawsuits for failures resulting in deaths.  Attorneys love these guys?

I will check it! Thanks!

Here it is. I guess the only safe way to avoid injuries in case of a power shut off  is to be covered head to toe like @ECU Extreme. Next task...find me some sponsors ?

 

[steve454]

43 minutes ago, dmethvin said:

I am not convinced that you can practice for a true shutoff. I've had several close calls with balance due to hitting potholes, uneven pavement, or the pedals scraping something. For most of those I've managed to run off or at least gently roll onto the ground with no scrapes or hard contact. Once I overleaned into to the point of shutoff, and the problem is that when you're going that fast and already leaning forward there is no opportunity to get your feet out in front of you because you're already at a 45-degree angle with the ground. You are going DOWN!

That is a very good point about the angle you would be already leaning forward.

[Rehab1]

5 hours ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

Do you mean something like this? 

http://www.hovding.com       

Fat Unicyclist, this device is awesome! Still working on cost and how to recharge.

[Mono]

7 hours ago, dmethvin said:

I am not convinced that you can practice for a true shutoff. I've had several close calls with balance due to hitting potholes, uneven pavement, or the pedals scraping something. For most of those I've managed to run off or at least gently roll onto the ground with no scrapes or hard contact. Once I overleaned into to the point of shutoff, and the problem is that when you're going that fast and already leaning forward there is no opportunity to get your feet out in front of you because you're already at a 45-degree angle with the ground. You are going DOWN!

No way an adult can lean 45 degrees with any of the devices out there. In any case, for safety and for improved body control reasons, I think it is preferable to keep the upper body always up right, i.e. pretty much 0º leaning of the upper body. For acceleration it is probably even preferable to also keep the thighs at 0º and only bend the knees (and ankles, EDIT: be careful when applying this technique the first times as it leads to unexpectedly quick acceleration possibly pushing the wheel to its limits). For braking we need to bend the hip joints, still the upper body should stay upright.

Now, if only the knees are bent while accelerating and the wheel fails, we might be able to prevent any rotational force acting upon the body before impact and just, sort-of, go down on the knees, body still upright. Without knee pads this could be pretty bad though.

[Mono]

11 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

Fat Unicyclist, this device is awesome! Still working on cost and how to recharge.

Is there a reason that most scenes stop exactly at the interesting part, namely when the head would receive impact? That feels fishy.

[DS]

On 6/4/2016 at 7:21 PM, Rehab1 said:

Has anyone ever practiced for a Power Shut Off?

I practice shoulder roll - run fast, no jump trying to imitate direct body move down & roll. I used to have a bit experience some 30 years ago from martial arts and now renewed it with modifications.

To add the surprise factor last time a had a friend (or not so ) who pushed me abruptly behind at his chosen time...oooh boy, it was tough. I managed to roll over but with bruised shoulder and shaken head.

I was thinking also to remote the power button on my generic EUC with an one meter cable IOT get the real feeling of power cut while riding. Never implemented the idea, the generic is not anymore in my possession and I'm unwilling to try this with KS16.