eWheels 16hr Endurance Challenge

[MattDeamon]

39 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Everybody talking about battery size and theoretical possibilities. Maybe there will be someone achieving crazy miles. But for most participants (who do this for fun) it will be a matter of soles and/or ass. Whether you ride fast or slow, 16 hours on the wheel (minus fast charging breaks) is a serious physical challenge. It’s much more a matter of bodily abilities than wheel specs (provided a moder big wheel). Bigger battery gives some initial benefits but in the end some Wh difference is not that much divided for 16 hour ride. Fast charging and efficiency are keys in addition to good seat, good shoes and physical perseverance. 

True. I did a 643km road trip last year and purposefully rode standing 3/4 of the way the first day and all the way the second day. 

Calves were made out of concrete at the end of the first day, but surprisingly felt play okay for the second 🤔. 

But yeah, physical conditioning/perseverance is a huge part of long range. 

Edited February 24 by MattDeamon

[novazeus]

i'll find a school 440yd track on the weekend and win this wheel. 

can i have a lynx or another inmotion v13 instead? 

i think i can win on a v13 with a rock hard michelin tire.

[Sam Clegg]

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

i'll find a school 440yd track on the weekend and win this wheel. 

can i have a lynx or another inmotion v13 instead? 

i think i can win on a v13 with a rock hard michelin tire.

But the v13 is limited to 14 amps charge rate.   A lot of wheels can charge faster than that such as the lynx (18amps) or any modded begode wheel

[novazeus]

4 minutes ago, Sam Clegg said:

But the v13 is limited to 14 amps charge rate.   A lot of wheels can charge faster than that such as the lynx (18amps) or any modded begode wheel

well, in a couple of weeks i should have a lynx and post 16 hours on it.

[timmytool]

5 hours ago, novazeus said:

yeah, this challenge will def encompass weather and terrain. marty could start at the top of a mountain, others might ride with the prevailing winds. or laps around an indoor track.

i can only hit 32mph on my 2000' road, so i couldn't rack up enough miles. plus peeing would slow me down. might need diapers like the astronauts.

You'll have consistent charging breaks, so with videographer thats preps a food table and a nearby loo you'll be fine.

My predictions is a v4 master or a v3 master pro, with 50s batteries and a hot xt60/90 charging port. Setup with a sitting position, ideally running at a cycling velodrome or racing track. Charging rate will be the biggest limiting factor then a distant 2nd ridding efficacy at x speed.

Start fully charged, [ride down till it beeps at x speed then charge, charge at 10amps per parallel pack to cell voltage of 4 or 4.1 as per spec sheet(step charge).]repeat[] last charge shorten charge cycle so you can ride so it beeps just as 16hours ticks over.

 

Ps assuming a faster charging high capacity cell like the molicel p50b isn't modded into a master/master pro

[novazeus]

i pick v13 for comfort because 16 hours is a long time.

esp if hou's 70mm drop 40mm forward hangers i ordered work. idk where the trolley handle will be, but my crotch will be 70mm lower to the handle, or seat. 

Edited February 25 by novazeus

[Mono]

Here is a funny observation: apart from the (small) time loss of stopping and connecting and restarting, the theoretical range is independent of the length of the charge intervals. Charging twice for 25 minutes or charging once for 50 minutes gives (almost) the same distance. If the pitstop offset (coming to a stop, connecting the charger, disconnecting the charger and get back to speed) takes overall 30 seconds, charging twice for 25 minutes instead of once for 50 minutes loses only 1% = 51 / 50.5 - 1 of the final range.

It's probably also advisable to recharge only to ~80% to prevent notable battery depletion. This also avoids the slowing charge rate at the end of charging.

The average overall speed that we want to maximize only depends (apart from the pitstop offsets and the initial stint before the first pitstop) on the averages of the riding speed, the power consumption and the charge power (the latter two measured in the same unit, e.g. Watt but not Wh/km which can't be used to measure charge power) like

                            riding speed x charge power
  overall average speed = ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
                          power consumption + charge power

A larger charge power and hence a larger battery is invariably better, because a larger battery can accept more charge power without getting destroyed. A smaller power consumption (seated position to reduce drag) is invariably better too, unsurprisingly. Otherwise, we have to mitigate speed versus power consumption (which grows faster in the denominator than speed in the nominator) to maximize the above formula.

charge power is here the per-hour change of the charge state of the battery in Wh, hence Wh/h = W, it's not the power of the charger but it should be somewhat close.

The above formula follows from overall average speed = distance / (riding time + charging time) = distance / riding time x riding time / (riding time + charging time) = riding speed x riding time / (riding time + charging time) and replacing riding time / charging time by the equivalent charging power / power consumption because the consumed energy and the charged energy must be the same.

I still wonder, what exactly is the point of this challenge?

Edited February 25 by Mono

[Rollin-on-1]

4 hours ago, Mono said:

Here is a funny observation: apart from the (small) time loss of stopping and connecting and restarting, the theoretical range is independent of the length of the charge intervals. Charging twice for 25 minutes or charging once for 50 minutes gives (almost) the same distance. If the pitstop offset (coming to a stop, connecting the charger, disconnecting the charger and get back to speed) takes overall 30 seconds, charging twice for 25 minutes instead of once for 50 minutes loses only 1% = 51 / 50.5 - 1 of the final range.

It's probably also advisable to recharge only to ~80% to prevent notable battery depletion. This also avoids the slowing charge rate at the end of charging.

The average overall speed that we want to maximize only depends (apart from the pitstop offsets and the initial stint before the first pitstop) on the averages of the riding speed, the power consumption and the charge power (the latter two measured in the same unit, e.g. Watt but not Wh/km which can't be used to measure charge power) like

                            riding speed x charge power
  overall average speed = ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
                          power consumption + charge power

A larger charge power and hence a larger battery is invariably better, because a larger battery can accept more charge power without getting destroyed. A smaller power consumption (seated position to reduce drag) is invariably better too, unsurprisingly. Otherwise, we have to mitigate speed versus power consumption (which grows faster in the denominator than speed in the nominator) to maximize the above formula.

charge power is here the per-hour change of the charge state of the battery in Wh, hence Wh/h = W, it's not the power of the charger but it should be somewhat close.

The above formula follows from overall average speed = distance / (riding time + charging time) = distance / riding time x riding time / (riding time + charging time) = riding speed x riding time / (riding time + charging time) and replacing riding time / charging time by the equivalent charging power / power consumption because the consumed energy and the charged energy must be the same.

I still wonder, what exactly is the point of this challenge?

The challenge itself.  Like has already been said, the physical and mental fortitude to ride for that long is the point of the challenge.  

[Mono]

2 hours ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

The challenge itself.  Like has already been said, the physical and mental fortitude to ride for that long is the point of the challenge.  

In other words, people risking crashing because they ride up and beyond exhaustion, that's the point?

The charging periods will give quite some time for breaks, fortunately. Even with a 2kW charger, the optimal charging time seems to be around or above 30%. Still a tough task, riding 11 of 16 hours at a rather high speed, it's easy to lose concentration once or twice.

Edited February 25 by Mono

[GitDatPC]

Come at me broz 🔋⚡️😑👍

[Funky]

Put some wind turbines at front of EUC - ride and charge the same time. 

[Sam Clegg]

Its interesting that charging speed seems way more important than battery capacity here.    

The master pro, with its big battery, will only have an advantage for the first leg, right?    I guess it could do fewer charge stops, but the overall time under change will be the same for any wheel that can charge at the same rate (aside from the first leg).

 

[Chriull]

30 minutes ago, Sam Clegg said:

Its interesting that charging speed seems way more important than battery capacity here

In theory the charge speed is limited for the modern used 5Ah li ion cells to a bit below 0.5C. I'd guess with proper cooling also higher charge rates like some 1C should be possible - maybe decreasing the overall lifetime. Maybe for bigger batteries charging with 0.5C could lead temperature wise already to problems, too?

However - if charged with 0.5C per paralleled cell "string" charging to 80% takes about 2h (with 1C ~1h) independent of overall pack capacity, as @Mono already stated.

So the break-even should be the available power for the charger from the mains plug and the wheels connectors, wiring and bms ability to survive the charging current.

[Rockhardo]

EUC World isn’t coming up in the Apple App Store? Is there a better name to search?

[Chriull]

2 minutes ago, Rockhardo said:

EUC World isn’t coming up in the Apple App Store? Is there a better name to search?

It's not available for now on iOS, but it's planned to come.

Edited February 25 by Chriull

[Mono]

1 hour ago, Sam Clegg said:

Its interesting that charging speed seems way more important than battery capacity here.    

Charging speed is what matters, yet maximal charging speed is, at least in principle, proportional to battery capacity which should make the battery capacity for this reason somewhat decisive as long as the charger or wires are not maxed out.

Edited February 25 by Mono

[Punxatawneyjoe]

My money is on @novazeus He's going to  tow the other 4 v13 battery's behind him in his cart and tether them to one wheel....

[Robse]

By the way, people who live in an area of the world where the normal daytime temperature will be around 20 - 25 degrees celcius and will participate in this competition have an advantage compared to people who live in colder or warmer areas: battery efficiency

[Robse]

Where on the charging curve does the time it takes to supply the battery with xx watts greater than the time it takes to consume the same amount of energy relative to a given riding speed?

Edited February 25 by Robse

[Punxatawneyjoe]

2 minutes ago, Robse said:

Where on the charging curve does the time it takes to supply the battery with xx watts greater than the time it takes to consume the same amount of energy?

If you look at some EUC world data i think a smaller wheel averaging 20 mph or so could go indefinitely on an oval track attached to an extension cord in the middle @ 20 amps

[novazeus]

19 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

My money is on @novazeus He's going to  tow the other 4 v13 battery's behind him in his cart and tether them to one wheel....

if i could pave an oval out here before the contest ends, i'd be good. as long as Bob was my pit crew.

[Rollin-on-1]

7 hours ago, Mono said:

In other words, people risking crashing because they ride up and beyond exhaustion, that's the point?

The charging periods will give quite some time for breaks, fortunately. Even with a 2kW charger, the optimal charging time seems to be around or above 30%. Still a tough task, riding 11 of 16 hours at a rather high speed, it's easy to lose concentration once or twice.

What is the point of any race or difficult challenge then?  This challenge may lead to innovation that could help further the technology for future wheels.  What's the reason not to have the challenge?  

This chalkenge could be the EUC version of Ford vs Ferrari 😁😁😁

Edited February 26 by Rollin-on-1

[Mono]

13 hours ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

What is the point of any race or difficult challenge then?

Is this a serious question? If yes, there are many possible reasons and they tend to be different for the different people involved:

For the organizers: advertise themselves, building their brand, popularize products they sell, getting engaged with "the community", selling replacements for wasted material, making money from spectators (not in this case)...

For participants: showing off to attract a mating partner, winning money, getting the thrill of winning or achievement, getting "famous", fighting boredom...

13 hours ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

What's the reason not to have the challenge?  

It is burning resources, it leeds to unnecessary risks taken by nonprofessionals.

Edited February 26 by Mono

[Cerbera]

I remain 'less sure' about the wisdom of endurance challenges. Tired legs are dangerous legs IME ! :/

[Seba]

On 2/24/2024 at 10:50 PM, Robse said:

It wouldn't surprise me if, in theory, this challenge could be won by one of the smaller and old wheels, e.g. KS 18XL, but it will be exciting to see the results 

For June 21, I planned a one-day tour of 309 km on a factory, unmodified 18XL. I will charge my wheel at 10 Amps and will be riding 100 % standing, with a small backpack. If only weather will not be too adverse, I should be able to finish this trip in about sixteen hours.