Inmotion V14 Adventure: a new trail wheel from Inmotion

[bpong]

Just now, The Brahan Seer said:

I'm looking forward to seeing the implementation Inmotion come up with re the batteries not long now.

it better be damn good from Inmotion since we have been waiting for awhile now....(shaking head...)

[Funky]

12 minutes ago, bpong said:

it better be damn good from Inmotion since we have been waiting for awhile now....(shaking head...)

Knowing how wheels are.. It will be another year of mistakes and micro updates. (The connector, batteries, anything can be wrong, or not ideal in first batch..)

So yeah..  Perhaps a perfect wheel for 2024 summer.

God forbit they launch already working wheel - without any problems. That would be a first.

 

 

To be honest I'm not excited in a bit - because every new wheel has been a letdown so far..

Edited July 13, 2023 by Funky

[bpong]

1 minute ago, Funky said:

,... God forbit they launch already working wheel - without any problems. That would be a first.

that would be historic to say the least...

[Mango]

5 hours ago, Robse said:

But she sold the Max, and kept the EX.N.?    despite imbalance?    Something to do with female hormones i guess.  Do not try to find logic in the actions of women.

She raced ahead in a group ride with cyclists, they shouted at her to not speed, then moments later she got into an accident. She started blaming the other cyclist for being in her way. Yes, female logic.

[bpong]

1 minute ago, Mango said:

She raced ahead in a group ride with cyclists, they shouted at her to not speed, then moments later she got into an accident. She started blaming the other cyclist for being in her way. Yes, female logic.

nope, i think its just bruised pride, not gender related at all.  i suggest we let it go and tackle more important issues at hand...

[mrelwood]

 

13 hours ago, Funky said:

How heavy are most wheels without battery packs? Case and motor only? 20-25kg?

More like 10-40kg…

 

13 hours ago, Funky said:

Knowing Inmotion wheels are more heavy than most..

What are you talking about?? Add the 2kg V11 suspension (which is the lightest in the market) onto your 18XL and it weighs the same as the V11. GW Hero is a 1800Wh wheel that weighs a megaton, while the V12 is 30kg. Etc…

 

In one of the responds from Inmotion it was unclear whether we’d have more information or a new wheel next month, but I guess it’s just about the information based on the recent image. Sigh, with a capital “S”.

[Merkyu Kyu Kyu]

 

 

[Funky]

11 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 

More like 10-40kg…

 

What are you talking about?? Add the 2kg V11 suspension (which is the lightest in the market) onto your 18XL and it weighs the same as the V11. GW Hero is a 1800Wh wheel that weighs a megaton, while the V12 is 30kg. Etc…

 

In one of the responds from Inmotion it was unclear whether we’d have more information or a new wheel next month, but I guess it’s just about the information based on the recent image. Sigh, with a capital “S”.

I was talking about most of the "New" wheels.. That has came out past year or so... Simply because this new wheel will also be in same ball park of weight and performance.

V13 most heavy wheel over all. V12 most heavy non suspension 16" for it's time. All i'm saying is - this one won't be one of the "lightest" in their class/performance of wheels. Even with one battery pack, it may be more heavy than some other wheel with more battery packs and and better performance.

I already can see 35++kg.. Incoming, because of the dumb market.  (Fatton, Mini comando, etc..)

Edited July 14, 2023 by Funky

[Flygonial]

On 7/13/2023 at 10:07 AM, Funky said:

Knowing how wheels are.. It will be another year of mistakes and micro updates. (The connector, batteries, anything can be wrong, or not ideal in first batch..)

So yeah..  Perhaps a perfect wheel for 2024 summer.

God forbit they launch already working wheel - without any problems. That would be a first.

 

 

To be honest I'm not excited in a bit - because every new wheel has been a letdown so far..

I’m cautious about how this will end up as well, but in another thread I brought up some points that I think are still relevant. I actually think a slightly “lower fidelity” design that still relies on manually connecting RC plugs would be plenty robust as those plugs form very solid connections. If it’s something that uses some sort of leaf contacts and whatever sort of detent to clip the battery into place then I definitely forsee potential disconnects and cutouts.

Also relevant to the discussion of course is some thoughts I had about how the firmware should handle different current capabilities with more or less packs, balancing and/or not allowing you to use mismatched battery state-of-charges. It’s an exciting technology indeed and I feel like the Inmotion engineers are smart enough to realize they need to take into account every obvious concern, but there’s definitely a lot more that needs to go right than usual.

14 hours ago, Funky said:

I was talking about most of the "New" wheels.. That has came out past year or so... Simply because this new wheel will also be in same ball park of weight and performance.

V13 most heavy wheel over all. V12 most heavy non suspension 16" for it's time. All i'm saying is - this one won't be one of the "lightest" in their class/performance of wheels. Even with one battery pack, it may be more heavy than some other wheel with more battery packs and and better performance.

I already can see 35++kg.. Incoming, because of the dumb market.  (Fatton, Mini comando, etc..)

Funnily enough on this, I know a few friends that aren’t willing to go heavier than the S22, which I know you consider heavy already (mostly for your needs of needing to carry the wheel). Yet, for us riders less concerned on that, a lot of us haven’t been enjoying the ride feel of 14” rim (18-20”) wheels heavier than 35kg. A local sold his Sherman-S he impulse bought after two months, for example, he just didn’t find it playful enough.

The Patton is a good example, but we’re seeing things like the Extreme come out just as heavy too. A friend pointed out to me yesterday that for all the S22’s much maligned slider design faults, it was a more lightweight and integrated design, something following in its footsteps would need more durable rollers and better weatherproofing though.

The V11 suspension definitely takes the cake as the lightest but it’s also a pseudo suspension anyways (mostly unsprung weight, including batteries and controller).

Though I’m excited for this and even would consider replacing my S22 with it, I’m with you on being careful with the first batch of these. 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Flygonial

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Flygonial said:

a lot of us haven’t been enjoying the ride feel of 14” rim (18-20”) wheels heavier than 35kg. A local sold his Sherman-S he impulse bought after two months, for example, he just didn’t find it playful enough.

See right there i could care less.. Because i don't use my EUC for "fun".  And i won't throw away 4000$ in a impulse buy.

Sure 12" (16-17") are more fun to ride. Because they take any micro movement from rider right into riding feel. More exciting to ride so on..

But for the fact that 14" (18-20") simply roll over anything like a tank, is enough for me to chose it over "more fun to ride" one.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Funky

[techyiam]

3 hours ago, Flygonial said:

The Patton is a good example, but we’re seeing things like the Extreme come out just as heavy too. A friend pointed out to me yesterday that for all the S22’s much maligned slider design faults, it was a more lightweight and integrated design, something following in its footsteps would need more durable rollers and better weatherproofing though.

If you or your friends haven't ridden a Patton, you probably need to, in order to understand what Leaper Kim managed to do with the Patton. The S22 Pro is around 80 lbs. So for most riders, they aren't going to lift up and down 3 flights of stairs. While riding, I thought the Patton was easier to ride than the S22. The Patton is about 10 lbs heavier, but you won't feel it unless you lift it.

Edited July 15, 2023 by techyiam

[Rollin-on-1]

5 hours ago, techyiam said:

The Patton is about 10 lbs heavier, but you won't feel it unless you lift it.

Even when lifting, it feels easier to manage than the lighter S22  (at least to me). I have to carry up a narrow flight of stairs everytime I ride.  By grabbing the front handle and the kickstand, I can dead lift it to my thigh.  Walking up after that is a breeze.  I actually find it easier to carry than my much lighter 16x just because of the ergonomics of the wheel. Sure, there are times when it is less convenient to handle the weight (trolleying it around one needs to be more aware of keeping it vertical to keep things under control).  But most people shouldn't be concerned about Patton's weight.  If the Adventure follows a similar recipe, the weight should be a relatively non-issue.

[techyiam]

4 hours ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

Sure, there are times when it is less convenient to handle the weight (trolleying it around one needs to be more aware of keeping it vertical to keep things under control).

For me, comparing my Abrams to my V12, obviously the V12 being 36 lbs lighter is easier to lift with one hand. But when I am off the wheel and need to maneuver it in tight spaces, if I can keep the wheel vertical, surprisingly, it is easier to manage with the Abrams using the two lift handles at both ends.

It is indeed surprisingly deceptive in how much weight can be masked if a wheel can be kept vertical.

 

[Flygonial]

14 hours ago, Funky said:

See right there i could care less.. Because i don't use my EUC for "fun".  And i won't throw away 4000$ in a impulse buy.

Sure 12" (16-17") are more fun to ride. Because they take any micro movement from rider right into riding feel. More exciting to ride so on..

But for the fact that 14" (18-20") simply roll over anything like a tank, is enough for me to chose it over "more fun to ride" one.

That you don’t have the fun factor in mind as much I’m very aware of. Just thought it was interesting how even some of us more enthusiast-types are not all appreciating the upward trend in weight either.

13 hours ago, techyiam said:

If you or your friends haven't ridden a Patton, you probably need to, in order to understand what Leaper Kim managed to do with the Patton. The S22 Pro is around 80 lbs. So for most riders, they aren't going to lift up and down 3 flights of stairs. While riding, I thought the Patton was easier to ride than the S22. The Patton is about 10 lbs heavier, but you won't feel it unless you lift it.

Oh no the Patton definitely is more maneuverable, and I expect a lot of the other 80+ lb 12” rim wheels coming out to feel more nimble than an S22 too. Rotational inertia with rim size > 10 odd pounds after all.

It’s just that I was more thinking of using this wheel in the rumored 14” rim configuration where there would be some difference in how playful the wheel feels compared to an S22 depending on weight. At 45 psi + a twitchy tire, my aforementioned friend for example didn’t end up liking the Sherm-S. 

[zer0dayexploit]

My wallet is not excited for this wheel. I know I'll want it haha

[mrelwood]

On 7/15/2023 at 9:20 PM, Flygonial said:

Rotational inertia with rim size > 10 odd pounds after all.

The weight difference between a 12” and a 14” motor is pretty small though. The difference comes only from the tire and aluminum rim circumference being 14% shorter. The motor itself is the same size. What’s added to the 14” motor are just the spokes.

A 18/20” tire weighs roughly 5lbs, and the whole V11 rim weighs 7lbs, magnets and the inner circle of the rim included. The outer rim maybe half of that, so 14% out of 8.5lbs is just a 1.2lbs difference.

[Flygonial]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The weight difference between a 12” and a 14” motor is pretty small though. The difference comes only from the tire and aluminum rim circumference being 14% shorter. The motor itself is the same size. What’s added to the 14” motor are just the spokes.

A 18/20” tire weighs roughly 5lbs, and the whole V11 rim weighs 7lbs, magnets and the inner circle of the rim included. The outer rim maybe half of that, so 14% out of 8.5lbs is just a 1.2lbs difference.

I don't doubt that the weight different is small, but I had that impression moreso from how rotational inertia is a square function of radius. The actual difference is obviously not the same as just assuming each wheel is a evenly weight-distributed cylinder out to the edge so my napkin math is just that, but a 14% difference in rim size (and we're still excluding the tires) accounts for 29~% more rotational inertia, which is considerably more than the weight difference between the wheels (which also only really affects how the wheels feel in a non-speed dependent way, therefore being even smaller of a factor at any significant speed).

It is neat to now know what the actual weight difference between the two motor + rim setups really is though.

[techyiam]

53 minutes ago, Flygonial said:

I don't doubt that the weight different is small, but I had that impression moreso from how rotational inertia is a square function of radius. The actual difference is obviously not the same as just assuming each wheel is a evenly weight-distributed cylinder out to the edge so my napkin math is just that, but a 14% difference in rim size (and we're still excluding the tires) accounts for 29~% more rotational inertia, which is considerably more than the weight difference between the wheels (which also only really affects how the wheels feel in a non-speed dependent way, therefore being even smaller of a factor at any significant speed).

It is neat to now know what the actual weight difference between the two motor + rim setups really is though.

All I can say is to ride the wheels and find out. 

Even though the Abrams has a 17" rim, 22" tire, one of the biggest and heaviest motors, and rides like a big wheel, you will be surprised by how responsive the motor is, especially with the capacitor mod. You can really feel the rotational inertia on the V13. I felt the Sherman-S motor has more rotational inertia than my Abrams. 

[Flygonial]

51 minutes ago, techyiam said:

All I can say is to ride the wheels and find out. 

Even though the Abrams has a 17" rim, 22" tire, one of the biggest and heaviest motors, and rides like a big wheel, you will be surprised by how responsive the motor is, especially with the capacitor mod. You can really feel the rotational inertia on the V13. I felt the Sherman-S motor has more rotational inertia than my Abrams. 

Definitely fair to say that there is more to it than rim size, yeah, and end of the day I do agree that the Patton feels nimble (and moreso than the S22) considering it’s weight.

Upon further thought, one factor at walking speeds is just how compact the actual wheel is (which is funnily another form of rotational inertia) when shuffling side-to-side. At those speeds you would expect the difference in rim size to be minimal since there’s barely any angular momentum, but it certainly helps the Patton feel more playful when it doesn’t have a big honking swingarm sticking out the back.

[mrelwood]

On 7/17/2023 at 10:56 PM, Flygonial said:

rotational inertia

I’m too lazy to check how it is calculated, so I’ll take your word for it. But I’m not sure how you figure the rotational inertia to be a major factor in nimbleness, when the wheel’s self-balancing takes care of any differences in the required power when accelerating and braking. The only factor it would play a role in is the gyro effect, but even that only affects sideways forces.

 The tire diameter affects directly how far you have to lean in order to accelerate at the same rate. If by “nimble” you mean “effortless to accelerate”, you don’t need to look further for the reason.

[mrelwood]

On 7/17/2023 at 11:54 PM, techyiam said:

You can really feel the rotational inertia on the V13. I felt the Sherman-S motor has more rotational inertia than my Abrams. 

How exactly do you feel the tire’s and rim’s rotational inertia? How do you differentiate it from all the other forces at play?

[techyiam]

7 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

How exactly do you feel the tire’s and rim’s rotational inertia? How do you differentiate it from all the other forces at play?

Rotational inertia is just inertia in a rotational frame. It has the properties of inertia. 

Sounds like you haven't ridden a V13. There is no mistake about it. Also ride the Master Pro, and even the Abrams.

 

 

[Flygonial]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The only factor it would play a role in is the gyro effect, but even that only affects sideways forces.

Actually this is exactly what I meant. I guess how much a wheel “wants to go” and how snappy it feels braking can contribute to feeling “nimble” but that would mean baby wheels like the V8 and Mten aren’t “nimble”, at least the way I’ve always thought of it.

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

Rotational inertia is just inertia in a rotational frame. It has the properties of inertia. 

Sounds like you haven't ridden a V13. There is no mistake about it. Also ride the Master Pro, and even the Abrams.

I have tried a Monster Pro though. I didn’t specifically feel a rotational inertia. Felt a lot of other forces that I can specify though.

What I wanted to know is how do you differentiate the rotational inertia from the wheel’s weight, or even just the geometry of a large tire? I was hoping for a more specific answer than “You just know.”

Edited July 18, 2023 by mrelwood

[Flygonial]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I have tried a Monster Pro though. I didn’t specifically feel a rotational inertia. Felt a lot of other forces that I can specify though.

What I wanted to know is how do you differentiate the rotational inertia from the wheel’s weight, or even just the geometry of a large tire? I was hoping for a more specific answer than “You just know.”

What makes a wheel feel the way it does definitely can depend on more factors than just the rim size’s rotational inertia, sure, but rotational factors might be more involved than you think.

The weight of the wheel and geometry of it do definitely affect the feeling of nimbleness, but this also involves another form of rotational inertia in the vertical axis. The weight is just a bigger factor here versus the size of the wheel (which varies less) and the length of the wheel sort of represents diameter.  A 24” tire with fairly spread out batteries is going to definitely going to contribute to how easy it is to point/turn the wheel at lower speeds (it’s also not speed dependent, but in this regard it definitely contributes to how a wheel feels when you first step on it). Given that the Monster Pro is “only” around 90~ pounds this also helps explain some of it.

The part that just depends on the rotational inertia of the wheel is just a speed-dependent resistance to the wheel turning or tipping over (and even resistance to turning back upright if you’ve leaned far enough). This effect gets more pronounced in larger wheels and as I don’t intend to condescend at all, you probably already have felt this before.