Inmotion V14 Adventure: a new trail wheel from Inmotion

[Rollin-on-1]

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

As far as I know they have only snapped on units that have been opened up and either not tightened to spec or not using threadlocker. And then shared with the most hardcore riders there are. A few units out of maybe a thousand. I really don’t see that as an issue that concerns anyone who’s planning on buying one.

Some dealers were replacing the motor bolts for all their V13 owners, so there must have been enough of a concern for them to be making the effort.  We are talking about batch 1 issues - doesn't this count?  Wasn't a change made to address the batch 1 concerns?

 

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Where is this 2 years coming from? It’s barely a 2 year old wheel!

The issue was identified in the demo wheel sometime around April 2021 (it wasn't long after I had ridden that very demo wheel).  When exactly did the V12 become a wheel that broadly became considered dependable?  Late fall 2022? A little over 1.5 years?  I stand by my "nearly 2 years" statement.

The point is, Inmotion does not have a better batch 1 track record than other manufacturers.  

This will be Inmotion's first 134v wheel and it's first wheel with a linkage suspension.  None of the manufacturers making linkage suspensions have gotten it right yet. You really don't anticipate growing pains? Now,  conside that until a couple of months ago this wheel wasn't even suposed to be getting a 134v system?  IM sems to be taking a page from the Begode playbook in terms of getting caught up in a spec sheet arms race.  Generally speaking this approach doesn't yield high quality batch 1 wheels.  IM is taking their time releasing the wheel though and they seem to have been successful rolling out the 126v V13, so maybe they will get this one right on the first try. I hope they can.

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

Some dealers were replacing the motor bolts for all their V13 owners, so there must have been enough of a concern for them to be making the effort.

By Inmotion’s words the bolts that were provided to them didn’t match what was ordered, so they sent replacements to all customers.

 How many confirmed separate snapped bolt cases do you know about?

1 hour ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

We are talking about batch 1 issues - doesn't this count?

Sure. It’s just not something I’d worry about personally. I was asked why I’m ready to buy a 1st batch wheel from Inmotion but not from others.

1 hour ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

The issue was identified in the demo wheel sometime around April 2021

Did the mosfets fry on that one? I didn’t remember if they did.

1 hour ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

When exactly did the V12 become a wheel that broadly became considered dependable?  Late fall 2022?

How come late fall when the new boards were in circulation already in the spring? There were bad installation issues through the summer since users that don’t know how to install mosfets decided to try to install themselves anyhow. After which Inmotion started to ship the board preinstalled on the heat sink. To my knowledge the new board design wasn’t changed during ‘22, so if you think the issues stopped in the fall, there was some other reason for them than the board design from the spring.

1 hour ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

The point is, Inmotion does not have a better batch 1 track record than other manufacturers.

I sort of agree. The amount of issues might be similar, but the nature of them isn’t, in my opinion. I’m ready to receive Inmotion’s 1st batch issues, but not others’ 1st batch issues.

1 hour ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

You really don't anticipate growing pains?

Of course I do! And batch 4 units will surely be better in many regards. I never said that there wouldn’t be issues. Only that I’m ready to buy a 1st batch Inmotion. With it’s issues and all.

[Rollin-on-1]

23 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Did the mosfets fry on that one? I didn’t remember if they did.

Yes.  There is video around somewhere.

[Rollin-on-1]

26 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

How come late fall when the new boards were in circulation already in the spring?

After the board replacement there were still some issues with cutoffs.  WW wven had 2 cutoffs with the V12 HT if I'm not mistaken.  Granted, he isn't a good repreaentation of an average rider, but the V12 still needed some tweaks before it was a reliable wheel that I was comfortable recommending to new riders as a first wheel that they wouldn't quickly out grow.

[Unventor]

On 6/16/2023 at 6:56 PM, Funky said:

And here i'm riding with one tire - not planning to change till the tread is gone.  

In some places we have consider 2 seasons of tires or limit riding a lot. 

[techyiam]

On 6/16/2023 at 12:43 PM, mrelwood said:

On 6/16/2023 at 10:57 AM, techyiam said:

Curious as to why you won't consider first batch Veteran wheels, yet you would with Inmotion wheels?

ShermS 1st batch pedals were rusted, a few of them cracked, pedal design was bad, suspension drags to the battery casing, shock bracket cracks when tightened properly, and shock’s top end cuts into your leg (not a 1st batch issue, unless it would be changed, which I doubt). All 1st batch buyers got a package of stuff from Veteran to fix the issues, so they were covered. But it’s largely about the design philosophy as well. Read on:

Thank you for your response. 

I see. I suppose we value things differently. 

Since you have used the Sherman-S as an example as to why you wouldn't consider buying a Veteran electric wheel, this is a good example to show how we differ in the way we value the different aspects of an electric wheel. Actually, in the case of the Sherman-S, I thought Leaper Kim did responded well to the few complaints that surfaced. The cracked top half shell of the stanchion clamp occurred during reassembly, and not during riding, at least for the incident that I read.

The rusted shaft of the pedals was a negative, but I don't consider this as a big issue, and Leaper and the dealers promptly resolved it. Someone did mentioned about the bottom end portion of the stanchion rubs against the inside of the battery pack. Again, not sure whether this is something to be concerned with for the majority of the owners. I have not heard much about it since. Even though, we did not hear many complaints from Sherman-S owners, Leaper Lim did address those issues with a package of parts send to the owners. The thing is I keep hearing from Sherman-S owners saying how happy they are, online and from local riders.

In contrast, for many months, I was hearing complaints and frustration from S22 owners. And with the Master, how the owners first order of business is to replace the linkage, shock, and add a protective fairing kit, and how many revisions of boards?

Based on my Abrams ownership experience, and reading online feedback, and conversations with local riders, I would definitely consider buying another Veteran wheel.

 

On 6/16/2023 at 12:43 PM, mrelwood said:

On the Patton, the charge port is really difficult to get to, and the start up beep is horribly loud. Both really stupid mistakes that should’ve been catched before reaching even the first tester. And both affect the daily usage tremendously.

Again, this isn't a deal breaker for me. My Abrams is loud too, but I am OK with it. The charge port is deeply recessed. IMO, nothing to catch. This is lazy engineering. But it wouldn't be a showstopper for me.

On 6/16/2023 at 12:43 PM, mrelwood said:

Inmotion seems to think through the usability aspect much further. The ergonomics are great, nothing pressing sharply against your leg, power on sounds and other tones (except alarms) can be silenced, charge port is comfortable to use, handle design works great, headlights have been the best in the industry (by far) since V11, anyone can find their optimal riding behavior (if taken a little time to learn all the adjustments), etc. The list is long. I don’t have to worry that there would be something that should’ve been really obvious to fix, that would make me annoyed or dislike the wheel.

I like the V12 and the V13. They have nice features. The V13's suspension is decent enough, but it's no Sherman-S nor Patton. The suspension is first generation design. Inmotion is working to replace it with a hydraulic suspension in order to be competitive. I would also consider buying an Inmotion wheel based on my V12 ownership experience, and how I like the V13 rides compared to my Abrams. I also hear V13 owners saying good things about it. But there seemed to be many more Sherman-S owners out there.

On 6/16/2023 at 12:43 PM, mrelwood said:

Sure there were a few 1st batch issues with the V11 as well, that were later fixed. They were the first to use a hollow core motor, so the fact that large bearings require a separate cover was an understandable surprise.  The rest were too small to bother me, despite having learned to be quite picky with wheels.

I feel the same way with my V12 and Abrams. Actually, I had no issues with my T3 out of the box. However, after a year of ownership, I started to noticed that things have been wearing down. The T3 is not durable. In contrast, both the V12 and Abrams looked to last, especially the latter.

It is weird that you are OK with the V11's problems, but not OK with the Sherman-S's. The Sherman-S is Leaper Kim's first suspension wheel. And I think they did a great job.

I am looking forward to the releases of the Inmotion's battery swappable wheels. I will compare them to the Veteran models as well as the Begode/Extreme Bull offerings before deciding on my next wheel purchase. I am so happy with my Abrams that I may not get a gap-filler suspension wheel in the meantime. 

[mrelwood]

31 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I suppose we value things differently.

As we should. That’s why different kinds of wheels sell.

31 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I keep hearing from Sherman-S owners saying how happy they are

No surprise there, it’s a nice wheel with the best suspension by far. S22 and especially Master are absolute disasters compared.

31 minutes ago, techyiam said:

But it wouldn't be a showstopper for me.

Like you said, we value different things in wheels. For me having to struggle with a charging port, having to listen to blazing loud tones in the middle of the night, and a headlight that can’t be used in traffic are daily issues that are each a showstopper themselves. I guess the headlight could be replaced, but I haven’t seen anyone find a fitting replacement with a good traffic friendly throw.

 But I do understand that these are not issues for some riders. For them the ShermS can surely be the best wheel ever made.

31 minutes ago, techyiam said:

It is weird that you are OK with the V11's problems, but not OK with the Sherman-S's.

The V11 doesn’t have any daily issues or problems, beyond the suspension being 1st gen. The usability, geometry, comfort, weight, and ride mode options are absolutely great. I did replace the bearings, but that was just a single day out of 1000 days of ownership. Besides, I have a highly customized riding mode whose behavior can’t be gotten even close with the ShermS. To me it’s a no-brainer.

31 minutes ago, techyiam said:

The Sherman-S is Leaper Kim's first suspension wheel. And I think they did a great job.

They absolutely did. That’s not enough for me though.

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

For me having to struggle with a charging port

I took a detailed look at the charging ports. The issue arises when the connector is inserted by hand. The reason for this because the ports themselves are deeply recessed, so that the fingers won't be long enough to firmly insert the connector due to the hand being partially obstructed by the front lift handle. Perhaps a tool of some sort could be used, or a waterproof extension dongle of sort could be added. I feel that this is an issue that wouldn't be that difficult to resolve. I haven't had to live with it, so this is just my 2 cent.

Regarding the top edge of a wheel cutting into the legs, I have to say my worse experience has on the T3, hands down. The most uncomfortable, awkward wheel for my legs to straddle over has to  be the Abrams. Not only is the width wide, but it is so high up the leg near the knees. However, in both cases, I have adapted to them. 

[Funky]

9 hours ago, Unventor said:

In some places we have consider 2 seasons of tires or limit riding a lot. 

I got 1 "diy" studded tire and 1 regular tire - Winter/Summer.

Should buy a second motor.. Just so you don't have to remove tire each season change. Simply removing motor and change itself would much easier.. 

Edited June 18, 2023 by Funky

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Funky said:

Simply removing motor and change itself would much easier..

How is replacing the tire easier than not replacing the tire? The motor has to be taken out in any case.

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

However, in both cases, I have adapted to them.

Humans are great inventions in that regard, they can adapt to practically everything. Everybody would eventually adapt to for example the IPS Lhotz, and after enough time even that would bring more joy than not.

Adapting to a wheel’s issues of that level is just not good enough for me anymore.

[Funky]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

How is replacing the tire easier than not replacing the tire?

Huh?  Replacing motor is easier. (I mean whole motor/rim/tire combo.)

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The motor has to be taken out in any case.

You don't need to take off the tire, only exchange motors.. One motor for summer(summer tire), other one for winter(winter/studded tire).

You skip the part where you need to mount/dismount tire each season by having "2" separate motors.. (motor/rim/tire.)

Edited June 18, 2023 by Funky

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Funky said:

You skip the part where you need to mount/dismount tire each season by having "2" separate motors.. (motor/rim/tire.)

What am I missing. You yourself said that:

1 hour ago, Funky said:

You don't need to take off the tire, only exchange motors.. One motor for summer(summer tire), other one for winter(winter/studded tire).

 

[techyiam]

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Humans are great inventions in that regard, they can adapt to practically everything. Everybody would eventually adapt to for example the IPS Lhotz, and after enough time even that would bring more joy than not.

Adapting to a wheel’s issues of that level is just not good enough for me anymore.

I think what we talking about here is an ergo issue that doesn't apply to most owners. On the T3, it was killing me within the first few seconds of getting on. On both the Abrams and the S22, I could barely ride those things the first time I got on. Coming from an Abrams to Sherman-S, Patton, and S22 now, I no longer have ergo issues with those wheels.

However, beyond myself, on the Sherman-S, I am not hearing ergo  complaints from owners. And regarding the Patton, every person that I saw who got on did not complain about the ergo. In the Patton thread, owners are starting to report their first impressions, and nobody is complaining about the ergo.

I wonder if you are among the few that have ergo problems with the Veteran latest offerings.

In any case, ergo is only one factor. Have you ridden the V13. I would venture a guess that there will be an adaptive period for you to move from the V11 to the V13. This learning curve is not insignificant. I would say for most riders, the V13 dramatic increase in inertia and rotational inertia would take longer and more effort to get comfortable with.

[Funky]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

What am I missing. You yourself said that:

 

Idk.. You tell me.  

All i was saying is - that you would need to replace motor only. Quick swap winter/summer.. Without mounting tire on/off.

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

How is replacing the tire easier than not replacing the tire? The motor has to be taken out in any case.

You asked me "how it's easier.."

ONLY motor.. No tire change.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Funky

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, Funky said:

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The motor has to be taken out in any case.

You don't need to take off the tire, only exchange motors.. One motor for summer(summer tire), other one for winter(winter/studded tire).

You skip the part where you need to mount/dismount tire each season by having "2" separate motors.. (motor/rim/tire

This is where the individual himself and his past experiences make the difference.

For @Funky, changing a tire on a rim is not worth the effort. He rather buy a second motor and rim. Whereas, for @mrelwood, it is the opposite. 

If the Adventure's quick wheel swapping feature works well, @Funky preference could become popular for those who can afford it.

[Funky]

28 minutes ago, techyiam said:

This is where the individual himself and his past experiences make the difference.

For @Funky, changing a tire on a rim is not worth the effort. He rather buy a second motor and rim. Whereas, for @mrelwood, it is the opposite. 

If the Adventure's quick wheel swapping feature works well, @Funky preference could become popular for those who can afford it.

How "skipping" changing tire all together isn't easier?  You literally don't need to take tire off and put different tire on.

300$ for never needing to do a tire change ever again is worth it. Pumping tire.. Taking it off.. Then putting other tire on and re-centering it. Also M/C tires are much harder to change, than regular EUC tires.

 I haven't got second motor yet.. Because i got time and can do a tire change. But i have thought about it..

 

 

Even if Adventure's quick motor release works. Don't you still need to remove the tire from rim? You still would need second motor. If you didn't want to do a tire change ever again for seasons, winter/summer.

I would call removing motor on 18xl pretty easy.. It's harder to do the tire change itself.  

Edited June 18, 2023 by Funky

[Flygonial]

Before the previous rumored 100V wheel seemed to get canned, I recall rumors that it would have the Samsung 50S cells? Doesn’t bode well for cost if it’ll still happen but it sidesteps the concerns Begode had had with the 134V 2400 Wh pack configs and being too cutout prone for comfort.

Of course, a lot of different restrictions (lower top speed, more conservative firmware tuning and the like) could make this much less of an issue on this wheel if it still will run 50e cells. As I haven’t seen any confirmation of it, I’ll still assume it’s 50e and not unusually high performance or high cost as a result.

Out of all the recent 16” offerings, this is the wheel actually consider selling off and replacing my S22 for. Time will tell on the spec sheet, cost, and if Inmotion sticks the landing on how they execute the quick-swapability or any other random things that could go wrong. Also unclear if they want to get their new “modular system” or replaceable packs to market by the time this wheel comes out, but that’s only a cherry on top for me and I have my doubts they can make a September release date with all those features anyways.

As a minor note, however, I’ve occasionally been using the S22 rim as a locking point for a U-lock. Though it doesn’t take that long to get the motor free if you know what you’re doing, this otherwise amazing sounding feature would just have this flaw. I almost never leave my wheel out of my sight outdoors if I can help it anyways, just a thought I had.

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, Funky said:

All i was saying is - that you would need to replace motor only.

You said it both ways, that’s what confused me:

4 hours ago, Funky said:

you need to mount/dismount tire each season by having "2" separate motors.. (motor/rim/tire.)

 

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

I wonder if you are among the few that have ergo problems with the Veteran latest offerings.

I haven’t had the chance to try the Patton, so can’t speak for that. But I’ve seen several ShermS owners manufacturing or purchasing padding for the suspension tops. So it seems like it is an issue for more people than you might think.

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

Have you ridden the V13.

No, haven’t seen any in Finland yet. But I already know what I would think about it. I’ve been riding 18/20” wheels for 5 years and 21 000 km, and if it weren’t for the V11’s magnificent ride mode settings, I’d still feel that they are too sluggish for my liking. That’s how I feel on all other 18/20” wheels (maybe only 18XL excluded). I can safely say that I would never get  comfortable with a 22” wheel.

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Funky said:

Also M/C tires are much harder to change, than regular EUC tires.

A tire change is hard, difficult or laborious only if one hasn’t felt it to be worth their time to learn a proper technique. For me there’s no difference between replacing regular EUC tires and motorcycle tires.

Time stamped:

https://youtu.be/PnB1Ua0wGhU&t=3m42s

[Funky]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Time stamped:

https://youtu.be/PnB1Ua0wGhU&t=3m42s

Yeah with that tire in video - i didn't even need tools to remove/put on it.(Original tire.) Compared to new K66 that i installed. It was nightmare to get it on/off. (Even using tools..) Simply because of 3-5x thicker rubber. There's almost no room for valve stem.. (When both beads are installed, the stem in suppressed between them like sandwich.) Valve stem is giving me the most problems.   Getting it in rim hole and so on.. (Even when one side bead is installed. Can't even get 2 fingers in there.. No space.)

Also by being much ticker rubber.. You can't really put one side in the rim "grove", while putting other side over the rim. One bead always wanna come out of rim grove/center. (Thank god i got clamps. Clamping sides together, so both beads touch each other.) Otherwise i could not get both beads to sit in the grove.. (Talking about putting the "last/second" bead over rim.)

Edited June 18, 2023 by Funky

[techyiam]

4 hours ago, Funky said:

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

This is where the individual himself and his past experiences make the difference.

For @Funky, changing a tire on a rim is not worth the effort. He rather buy a second motor and rim. Whereas, for @mrelwood, it is the opposite. 

If the Adventure's quick wheel swapping feature works well, @Funky preference could become popular for those who can afford it.

How "skipping" changing tire all together isn't easier?  You literally don't need to take tire off and put different tire on.

300$ for never needing to do a tire change ever again is worth it. Pumping tire.. Taking it off.. Then putting other tire on and re-centering it. Also M/C tires are much harder to change, than regular EUC tires.

Exactly what I said, changing a tire to you is not worth the effort.

I think @mrelwood does have a point, though. With the proper technique, it is very manageable.  But I don't have enough experience to say that it would be as easy as changing a bicycle tire. But I, myself would change the tire instead because it really is a manageable task, even with a scooter / motorcycle tire. However,  I have no experience with the K66. But, I have mounted and unmounted all my car and motorcycle tires by hand myself for decades.

4 hours ago, Funky said:

Even if Adventure's quick motor release works. Don't you still need to remove the tire from rim? You still would need second motor. If you didn't want to do a tire change ever again for seasons, winter/summer.

I would call removing motor on 18xl pretty easy.. It's harder to do the tire change itself.  

Yup, exactly what your plan entails, except removing the wheel should be even easier. 

Edited June 18, 2023 by techyiam

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I haven’t had the chance to try the Patton, so can’t speak for that. But I’ve seen several ShermS owners manufacturing or purchasing padding for the suspension tops. So it seems like it is an issue for more people than you might think.

Fair enough. I guess we are seeing local data supporting opposite views.

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

5 hours ago, techyiam said:

Have you ridden the V13.

No, haven’t seen any in Finland yet. But I already know what I would think about it. I’ve been riding 18/20” wheels for 5 years and 21 000 km, and if it weren’t for the V11’s magnificent ride mode settings, I’d still feel that they are too sluggish for my liking. That’s how I feel on all other 18/20” wheels (maybe only 18XL excluded). I can safely say that I would never get  comfortable with a 22” wheel

Different strokes for different folks. Nothing wrong.

For casual riding on bumpy roads, not going all out to accelerate (ie. not doing big leans), I do find some 20" wheels are not that responsive. At least, not better than my Abrams. Mind you, I am not big nor heavy. So I can't get access to all the torque. It seems to me I can access the torque on my Abrams fine.

For example, the first batch S22 with the old firmware felt weak to me. Even OG Sherman was so so in comparison. Some wheels may do great for others, just not me. So, I like to try out the wheels, and not just make assumptions based on wheel size.

Edited June 18, 2023 by techyiam

[zer0dayexploit]

Are there any pictures out yet of the wheel?

[techyiam]

46 minutes ago, zer0dayexploit said:

Are there any pictures out yet of the wheel?

I don't believe so. Only a select few who had the invitation to interview Bob Yan have seen the Adventure.