INMOTION V12

[Sympul]

Hey everyone, just wanted to put this on the V12 board as well.

It's not a cutout issue, but still likely a component issue. 

I was getting familiar with the V12 in a large maintenance bay that I have access to. Battery was at 98% and I rode it down to about 86% last time I looked at the display screen.

I had dropped it a few times, low speed. Picked it back up, wheel centered itself and carried on as per normal.

Then I dumped it again, but when I went to pick it up, the wheel wouldn't stop spinning. The cutoff button under the handle wasn't working and the screen had gone blank. When I picked it up, the wheel was still balancing but there was no Bluetooth connection, no LED lights, no headlight and no screen display. Nothing was cracked, it just wasn't working. However the wheel still balanced and still rode just fine. 

If I held down the power button, the wheel would go dead like I'd turned it off. When I held down the power button again (if the unit was upright) it would activate and balance. I had used a lockout code previously, but there was no display for the code and somehow I didn't need it to activate the wheel again. I tried turning it off and on again a few times, but no lights or Bluetooth ever came back. However the wheel still rides and balances just fine. 

I think I'm going to open it up and see if it was just a loose connection to the LED control board that I had seen mentioned in a teardown video somewhere on YouTube. 

Sorry to jump in while everyone seems caught up in the cutout problems, but thought I should mention this problem as well. 

 

On a side note, my InMotion app stopped working on me a few days ago. I had a quick msg pop up on the app saying that something was invalid and then it crashed / closed. I've done the uninstall / reinstall and tried to pair it with the V12 about 8 times. It'll see my wheel, but won't display any info on it and the little gear to get into the wheel's settings won't open. Basically it's useless and has locked me out of some portions of the wheel's settings that you can only change with the app. 

Has that happened to anyone else??

 

That's it, just wanted to let you guys know. 

Thanks!!

[ESB]

1 hour ago, Sympul said:

Hey everyone, just wanted to put this on the V12 board as well.

It's not a cutout issue, but still likely a component issue. 

I was getting familiar with the V12 in a large maintenance bay that I have access to. Battery was at 98% and I rode it down to about 86% last time I looked at the display screen.

I had dropped it a few times, low speed. Picked it back up, wheel centered itself and carried on as per normal.

Then I dumped it again, but when I went to pick it up, the wheel wouldn't stop spinning. The cutoff button under the handle wasn't working and the screen had gone blank. When I picked it up, the wheel was still balancing but there was no Bluetooth connection, no LED lights, no headlight and no screen display. Nothing was cracked, it just wasn't working. However the wheel still balanced and still rode just fine. 

If I held down the power button, the wheel would go dead like I'd turned it off. When I held down the power button again (if the unit was upright) it would activate and balance. I had used a lockout code previously, but there was no display for the code and somehow I didn't need it to activate the wheel again. I tried turning it off and on again a few times, but no lights or Bluetooth ever came back. However the wheel still rides and balances just fine. 

I think I'm going to open it up and see if it was just a loose connection to the LED control board that I had seen mentioned in a teardown video somewhere on YouTube. 

Sorry to jump in while everyone seems caught up in the cutout problems, but thought I should mention this problem as well. 

 

On a side note, my InMotion app stopped working on me a few days ago. I had a quick msg pop up on the app saying that something was invalid and then it crashed / closed. I've done the uninstall / reinstall and tried to pair it with the V12 about 8 times. It'll see my wheel, but won't display any info on it and the little gear to get into the wheel's settings won't open. Basically it's useless and has locked me out of some portions of the wheel's settings that you can only change with the app. 

Has that happened to anyone else??

 

That's it, just wanted to let you guys know. 

Thanks!!

You’re describing the symptoms I had when my motherboard / mainboard died during a firmware update. Everything dead except for self balancing.

it required a mainboard / motherboard replacement. (*not* driver board).

You could open your wheel and check connections though. You’d have to do that anyways to replace the board (unless you send it back to dealer)

 

[Sympul]

11 hours ago, ESB said:

You’re describing the symptoms I had when my motherboard / mainboard died during a firmware update. Everything dead except for self balancing.

it required a mainboard / motherboard replacement. (*not* driver board).

You could open your wheel and check connections though. You’d have to do that anyways to replace the board (unless you send it back to dealer)

 

Thanks ESB, I'll have to check it out. 

[supercurio]

15 hours ago, Unventor said:

Yet still so you claim to have full knowledge what goes on on the drive board?

We are talking apple and oranges here. I am pretty sure Inmotion are aware some people read data sheets. And that numbers on components are visual. I do admit I am not a design engineer. I acknowledge that someone could have made an error too. But I also know I have no way of understanding what goes on inside the drive board.

Now that said I hope Inmotion can help those effected by the problems being reported asap. I am also pretty sure they will test new boards much more as they want to squash these problems asap. rework on shipped out wheels will be a big cost and none benafit from this. By this I mean riders, resellers and Inmotion. And right now it is not something that can be hidden. the biggest damage is already done. But what will have a huge impact is how fast and easy Inmotion gets on top of this situation and riders can enjoy their wheels.

I do not have full knowledge, which would require full schematic, the firmware entire source code, and all gathered data & measurements gathered during development and testing.
It is a great opportunity to learn how all this works tho, so I'am spending significant amount of time doing so now.

Do you think Inmotion uses custom components made by Infineon according to their requirements, which would still be marked as the commercially available IPP023N10N5?
If that would be right, it would be catastrophic to replace custom-spec burned MOS with standard parts - of different capabilities, as suggested to repair failed board.

Considering the biggest damage is already done is an optimistic view IMHO. It is too early to tell.
Hopefully tho, now all distributors will run the stress test before shipping wheels to final customers, eliminating from the pool the most dangerous wheels which had no chance to ever survive, so that's something.

 

15 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I know it’s not related nor comparable in any way, but for some reason this reminded me of the EUC tire max load capacity discussions… Before the MC tires entered the picture, most EUC tires either specified max load 75kg stamped right on the sidewall, or didn’t care to specify anything.

It sounds like it was more like an arbitrary number they put there instead of an actual specification based on benchmarks of hundred of samples.
Do you know how many of these tires blew up under heavy riders / harsh riding conditions BTW in the real world?

 

15 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Btw, in my understanding the EUC motor is driven with a PWM signal, where the voltage specifies the speed and the pulse width specifies the amount of torque. Wouldn’t the full battery voltage then be passing the mosfets only at max lift speed (-back-EMF)?

My current understanding is that battery voltage is always at the input of the MOSFET.
Then they turn on and off rapidly, with duration off or on depending on the PWM duty cycle. Unfiltered, you get Vbat in and out, but the output is filtered and the average becomes the voltage used to drive the motor.
This averaged voltage goes against the back-EMF voltage of the motor, and the difference between these two voltages determine how much current goes into the motor.

I am not understanding completely how regen works yet, more specifically how the MOSFET act as inverters in the reverse direction and end up generating voltage beyond Vbat.
But I'm watching a series of videos now which should contain this information: 

 

[lirva]

15 hours ago, Sympul said:

the wheel was still balancing but there was no Bluetooth connection, no LED lights, no headlight and no screen display.

I had the same thing back in september last year. First commute to work this happened after hitting curb. Dealer replaced mainboard after waiting parts for 2 months. 

I'm not testing the mosfets until april next year, they will blow up for sure in my 1 batch sample. 

[.....]

1 hour ago, lirva said:

I had the same thing back in september last year. First commute to work this happened after hitting curb. Dealer replaced mainboard after waiting parts for 2 months. 

I'm not testing the mosfets until april next year, they will blow up for sure in my 1 batch sample. 

You test them each time you ride . Id personally rather see them fail while in my hand, rather than while I was in traffic and in motion. 

[supercurio]

2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

You test them each time you ride . Id personally rather see them fail while in my hand, rather than while I was in traffic and in motion. 

Agree, we all tend to be too good at repressing things we don't want to be true.
Understandable you just want to ride now after waiting so long already @lirva
It's probably not advisable to delay testing your board at least once, as there's no way to anticipate or mitigate when a failure would occur.

However we don't have the data to tell if checking before each ride is the best approach or would increase the risk of failure during the upcoming ride, and that's a real dilemma.

[Unventor]

4 hours ago, supercurio said:

Do you think Inmotion uses custom components made by Infineon according to their requirements, which would still be marked as the commercially available IPP023N10N5?
If that would be right, it would be catastrophic to replace custom-spec burned MOS with standard parts - of different capabilities, as suggested to repair failed board.

So what I think is not the same as knowing the answer to this question. 

I do not speculate on it because it matters not at all in my view. 

What I do know is mosfers can be in short supply. Of this I know have been an issue. Part reason why it took long time for me to get an replacement drive board for V11. 

With the continuous short supply of components manufactors need to seek supply where they can find it. And some will try to make money on this. And I would not be surprised if shipment with higher failure rate could make it to market rather than scrapping these. Something like time will likely not be spotted at once. And I think this is the reason why Inmotion got cought of guard on this. 

In the company I worked for it happens too from time to time. And a new spare part version will be made. But normally you only repair those products that show signs of a problem. Sometimes the rework is done though out the supply chain. It depends if the nature of the problem. 

So from what I have seen or heard I see nothing wrong in how Inmotion handled this so far. My company would have done something similar. 

But I am pretty sure they will conduct more testing to avoid more products is being shipped with something similar. Inmotion is not a brand that seems to be contempt with a 2 digit failure/problem rate. They have in the past done a lot to keep problems as low as possible. But it is not the same as no problem will ever exist. 

Inmotion are not new to making EUCs. So I am also very sure they know how mosfers works. And that they have tested design/construction extensively. 

Instead of seeing doom and conspiracy all over, I see this as very unfortunate events that all would like to have been avoided. Unfortunately that is not the situation right now. So now getting help to those in need of replacement parts is high priority but we still have a global shortage of components that is needed.

So this is not an easy task at all. 

[Planemo]

9 hours ago, Unventor said:

What I do know is mosfers can be in short supply.

This is very true, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

I had a long conversation with a good friend of mine the other day - a director of a company that supply electronic products for motorsport and military. Think ECU's/control drivers/power delivery systems. Many semiconductors and Fets involved. Due to shortages in component supply, every single product they offer is having to be redesigned in some way from the ground up to accomodate whatever components they can get. He was a broken man. Not only is he the director, but he is also the primary EE for the company. He has slowly been edging towards 6 hour days because he has woked hard all his life, but now he's doing 15. It is the only solution to keep the company (which has always been extremely profitable) afloat long term. We discussed the options of him being able to get similar or the 'same' components from other suppliers but he simply said that if he cant be 100% on the provenance of every single component, he wont use it. Company reputation is key and crucially, he said that if the failure of one of his products due to wafty quality/fake components resulted in someone getting hurt, he couldnt live with that.

[terlikaa]

Someone tried this tire on v12? 

Would it fit? 

https://www.amazon.com/TM16912-C183A-Front-Rear-Tire/dp/B000OO111Y

 

[Paul g]

1 hour ago, terlikaa said:

Someone tried this tire on v12? 

Would it fit? 

https://www.amazon.com/TM16912-C183A-Front-Rear-Tire/dp/B000OO111Y

 

Rim size is 12in, so no, won’t work. You need 16in.

[supercurio]

1 hour ago, terlikaa said:

Someone tried this tire on v12? 

Would it fit? 

https://www.amazon.com/TM16912-C183A-Front-Rear-Tire/dp/B000OO111Y

Yes it might work, @Paul g got confused with the dimensions.

However the description is unclear if it is 2.75 (has a chance to fit) or 3.0 (probably not with the knobs)
It could be worth checking the dimensions in person as long as you have easy returns!

Edited January 9, 2022 by supercurio

[Paul A]

Doesn't the listing for the tyre state it is for 12 inches?

 

Size	2.75/3.00-12
Brand	Cheng Shin
Rim Size	12 Inches
Tread Type	Knobby

 

Inmotion V12 rim size is 16 inch?

 

 

[nosamplesplease]

36 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Doesn't the listing for the tyre state it is for 12 inches?

 

Size	2.75/3.00-12
Brand	Cheng Shin
Rim Size	12 Inches
Tread Type	Knobby

 

Inmotion V12 rim size is 16 inch?

 

 

16" is the"total outside diameter"of the rim and tire. Chinese thinking is more about how much space in the body of the wheel, NOT the size of the rim.

Also it just occurred to me, if you are calculating distance based on number of rotations, outside diameter is what you need. Which I would guess is why none of the speedometer are completely accurate.

Edited January 9, 2022 by nosamplesplease
Further detail

[UniVehje]

28 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Doesn't the listing for the tyre state it is for 12 inches?

 

Size	2.75/3.00-12
Brand	Cheng Shin
Rim Size	12 Inches
Tread Type	Knobby

 

Inmotion V12 rim size is 16 inch?

 

 

16" class rim size is 12". 18" class (including what is usually called 19" and 20" wheels) rim size is 14". These tires are usually from bicycle standard that uses approximate outside diameter. Although that is not very accurate, which has lead to some companies using bigger numbers for marketing reasons. Motorcycle standard uses rim size which is more accurate. If the diameter comes first, it's bicycle standard and if it comes last after dash then it's motorcycle standard. V12 16x3" tires are about 17,5" in real diameter. 

[Paul A]

Ok, thanks.

Haven't had to change a tyre yet.

[Paul g]

30 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

16" class rim size is 12". 18" class (including what is usually called 19" and 20" wheels) rim size is 14". These tires are usually from bicycle standard that uses approximate outside diameter. Although that is not very accurate, which has lead to some companies using bigger numbers for marketing reasons. Motorcycle standard uses rim size which is more accurate. If the diameter comes first, it's bicycle standard and if it comes last after dash then it's motorcycle standard. V12 16x3" tires are about 17,5" in real diameter. 

 Hey, thanks a lot for the explanation, @UniVehje! This is really good to know. Now it makes more sense why so much confusion over the tyre dimensions. 

[Grimm10]

2 hours ago, Paul g said:

 Hey, thanks a lot for the explanation, @UniVehje! This is really good to know. Now it makes more sense why so much confusion over the tyre dimensions. 

That, and they way everyone spells the word tyre or tire. 😁

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, Paul g said:

 Hey, thanks a lot for the explanation, @UniVehje! This is really good to know. Now it makes more sense why so much confusion over the tyre dimensions. 

More info on EUC tire sizes, pinned at the Tire subforum:

 

Edited January 9, 2022 by mrelwood

[Timwheel]

On 1/8/2022 at 2:52 AM, Unventor said:

From what I have seen so far on telegram Inmotion do not this the mosfet are too weak if they performed as specified. 

As of the KS16X it can go at 50kmh but you can't max accelerate to that limit as it is easy to overshoot that limit if you do. It is a fine example of a speed limit pushed up by speed addicts but was not designed for that limit. 

I do not think that is the case with V12. A guy just posted he has been riding around in Paris pushing top speed at hitting bumps without any issues. And while doing this pushing passed 5500+watt on the board. 

That guy is me. But anecdotal evidence doesn't constitue proof. I just did it fully geared when there was no traffic at 2AM to stress it as much as my skill allowed me to, in order to gain trust in the wheel. And I did.

[EUC Phenomenon]

I want to take my V12 down to the park and start learning to ride it. Should it be okay to lay the wheel on its side in my car and do I need to put it in to transport mode? Thanks.

[supercurio]

1 hour ago, Tel01 said:

I want to take my V12 down to the park and start learning to ride it. Should it be okay to lay the wheel on its side in my car and do I need to put it in to transport mode? Thanks.

Yes totally fine after turning the wheel off.

However generally it's best to have an EUC mostly vertical than laying on its side due to their weatherproofing design. On the side, water mud or dirt can end up falling into the bearings or other undesirable places whereas if the wheel remains vertical all this would just fall down.

Which means in a car, tucked behind a front seat maybe? (Disclaimer: I don't own a car so I've never tried)

[The Brahan Seer]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

Which means in a car, tucked behind a front seat maybe? (Disclaimer: I don't own a car so I've never tried)

This is what I do. Once I've put it in I pull the front seat back a bit so the wheel is snug between the back of the front seat and the base of the back seat. Plus drive extra carefully, don't want to crash or roll the car with 25kg EUC in the passenger compartment.

[EUC Phenomenon]

13 hours ago, supercurio said:

Which means in a car, tucked behind a front seat maybe

Thanks for the advice. Tucked behind a front seat would be the best solution.

[taiguy]

Just had a buddy's V12 die on him while going down 2 stair steps. We're preparing ourselves to do the disassembly so we can send the control board out for repairs. Good practice I guess if all V12's are getting new control board versions in the spring.