Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Paul A]

Regarding the S20 range.

In the video by e-Rides, 'Kingsong S20 Diaries: They Are Listening. Kingsong Offers Improved Screws and Firmware Updated', Afeez states that the charger could only charge the batteries up to 93%. 

Time mark 2.09 onwards.

KS has been notified and new chargers will be included to allow charging up to 100%.

 

[techyiam]

Based on Marty's video, the S20 is really a cool running cat. The S20 was cooler running until the very top of Overheat Hill, where they all tied at 57 degrees. Ambient air temperature was around 25 degrees C. With the new gen of euc's coming out that is so cool running, Overheat Hill test may need a name change. And the S20 has no fan. Nope. This is not hype, just plain old, good engineering. Perhaps Extrem Bull should poach Kingsong's thermo engineer.

Edited February 26, 2022 by techyiam

[Kutvis]

Translations on for this one too, pretty nice review. I wish frensh people would give up and swap to english like the rest of us

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by Kutvelo

[Seba]

On 2/25/2022 at 12:08 AM, supercurio said:

@Rolzi guessing the energy estimates are wrong: both AVG and TOTAL seem low.

Figures look at least plausible for this speed and terrain profile. Also, we don't know what wind conditions were present during this ride. In general, King Song wheels are known for their power-efficiency and I think that S20 has many in common with older wheels. Also don't forget that it's using 4P battery based on 21700 cells. This config is known to have a "weak bottom" - expedited loss of remaining charge when battery is below ~15 %. I think many V11 users know what I mean (and it's not about firmware feature called "Go home" etc.).

1600 Wh for 90 km? Unider similar riding conditions I repeatedly get better results on my 18XL: https://euc.world/tour/601330672069246 (1556 Wh for 97 km), https://euc.world/tour/600244168549314 (1493 Wh for 92 km). I know that 18XL is lighter and has narrower tire with semi-slick tread, but still the riding speed and wind are the most important factors impacting energy consumption. So you can go way lower if you reduce speed further. Here is the proof - https://euc.world/tour/602858884885060 - 1246 Wh for 90 km! Of course, this was possible by reducing riding speed to about 20 km/h (average riding speed was slightly above 16 km/h). On the other side it was a relatively cold, autumn day.

In next few days I'll get S20 for organizing demo event in my area, but also for testing and for adding support to EUC World. This will be the opportunity to check how it behaves in terms of energy efficiency and how reliable are the energy efficiency values displayed by the app.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Seba

[Freeforester]

1 hour ago, Paul A said:

 

14:45-15:20 - I , er a ‘friend’ called me to say he  seems to have missed the suspension-bouncing demo part as proposed at this this segment, we that is, my ‘friend’ asks whether the link to this segment is possibly available on ‘pay-per-view’ basis? Seems most unfair unfortunate that the footage of this important technical aspect of the S20 was omitted, and it’s inclusion might well have encouraged potential buyers, across much of the the age demographic…
 

[Forwardnbak]

5 hours ago, Paul A said:

 

Even though they hit the same temps at the end, I like that the s20 was able to stay cool for the prolonged uphill climb. Seems it can hold the load well over good range and length of time. That gives me confidence as it must result on less long term heat stress on things. 
plus no fan song.

A lot of rattling from Marty’s mic. 
 

[Paul A]

Am wondering if the S20's heat sink was the main reason for the cooler temperatures in the lead up to Over Heat Hill.

Maybe as the heat build up in the sink reached maximum capacity, with no fan to cool it quickly, was the reason why the S20 became on par with the others at the end.

When the temperature of the heat sink reaches the ambient temperature, and the rate of heat absorption is greater than the rate of heat loss....

 

Would have been interesting to see what happens with the temperature of the S20 from there on wards, once it was on par with the others.

Without a fan, would it have then become hotter than the other wheels with further stress testing?

[techyiam]

22 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Am wondering if the S20's heat sink was the main reason for the cooler temperatures in the lead up to Over Heat Hill.

Maybe as the heat build up in the sink reached maximum capacity, with no fan to cool it quickly, was the reason why the S20 became on par with the others at the end.

When the temperature of the heat sink reaches the ambient temperature, and the rate of heat absorption is greater than the rate of heat loss....

 

Would have been interesting to see what happens with the temperature of the S20 from there on wards, once it was on par with the others.

Without a fan, would it have then become hotter than the other wheels with further stress testing?

You know why they call it the Overheat Hill test, right? It is already a torture test. How many riders are there going to need better cooling than the S20 in its current form? I, for one, don't need better cooling, nor do I want to pay for better cooling.

Edited February 26, 2022 by techyiam

[Rawnei]

1 hour ago, Paul A said:

Am wondering if the S20's heat sink was the main reason for the cooler temperatures in the lead up to Over Heat Hill.

Maybe as the heat build up in the sink reached maximum capacity, with no fan to cool it quickly, was the reason why the S20 became on par with the others at the end.

When the temperature of the heat sink reaches the ambient temperature, and the rate of heat absorption is greater than the rate of heat loss....

 

Would have been interesting to see what happens with the temperature of the S20 from there on wards, once it was on par with the others.

Without a fan, would it have then become hotter than the other wheels with further stress testing?

Don't forget it's also a 126v wheel so it will draw less amps which also means less heat.

[FrenchUsa]

Big thanks @ Marty for testing S20 and Sherman Max. Amazing how S20 keep cold without fan!!!

 

 

[Paul A]

There will be riders in warmer climates.

A heat sink might have an upper limit.

There are other members to consider.

[Freeforester]

Reality check: watch Lukas, see if you can spot the suspension!!

IF ‘rolled out’, kinda analogous, apologies for the distr-action:

https://youtu.be/0JPnR7C8mZQ

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by Freeforester

[Jon Stern]

5 hours ago, Forwardnbak said:

Even though they hit the same temps at the end, I like that the s20 was able to stay cool for the prolonged uphill climb. Seems it can hold the load well over good range and length of time. That gives me confidence as it must result on less long term heat stress on things. 
plus no fan song.

A lot of rattling from Marty’s mic. 
 

The rattling was the HERO's suspension. He mentions in captions in the video that after he greased it, the noise got a lot better.

[techyiam]

3 hours ago, Paul A said:

There will be riders in warmer climates.

A heat sink might have an upper limit.

There are other members to consider.

It is obvious that all cooloing systems have an upper limit, including those that are not made yet. Perhaps Marty is better to answer this. Which euc can go up Overheat Hill to the top as quick and can run cooler than the S20, with or without a fan?

There are many places that are hotter than 25 C, including Marty's locale. For example, in those Evx videos that I have watched when he was in Florida, I don't recall him complaining about overheating, nor Zen Lee in Las Vegas. There aren't mountain ranges where riders can go up for hours.

Perhaps you have your very own Overheat Something in Australia? I would like to hear it.

Can you tell us where are those riders who will be overheating their S20's, and which euc that would not under the same conditions.?

Edited February 26, 2022 by techyiam

[lazybones99]

Has Marty has ever said what the approximate milage & elevation change is on that Overheat Hill ride?

Edited February 26, 2022 by lazybones99
typo

[Tawpie]

KS has historically been very good on Overheat Hill so the S20 hauling 220 lbs up is in line with expectations. What's good to see is that Hero and Max also can deal with it, a sign that all manufacturers are paying attention to cooling.

I wish they had gone back down, switched wheels and come back up so that each of the three could compare notes. Hero powered Marty up the hill in grand style, Lucas (I think it was Lucas?) felt he had to lean a lot—I'd have loved to hear Marty's assessment of the S20 and the Max, and if Lucas felt the same need-to-lean on Hero or Max or both! Once it was clear that all three could handle the hill, there'd be less worry about having to pack one or more out, right?

Ah well, it looked like a fun day and I think Marty actually rides much quicker than I thought!

Edited February 26, 2022 by Tawpie

[Blunzn]

for additional cooling. GPU memory thermal pad test  

[yuweng]

 

Is that spark ?

[Turbomiäs]

26 minutes ago, yuweng said:

 

Is that spark ?

No. Put the video speed to 0.25x and you can see it's dirt illuminated by the headlight

Edited February 27, 2022 by Turbomiäs

[itsmark]

WattsSingleTrack's opinion of the S20 as a heavy off-roading wheel:

He has some concerns with the battery pack that I haven't seen brought up, what do you guys think?

[Rawnei]

6 minutes ago, itsmark said:

He has some concerns with the battery pack that I haven't seen brought up, what do you guys think?

There's a lot of talk in the video so would be nice if you could point out which segment you mean.

But besides that I think he is a great and brave rider that can give good feedback how the wheel behaves on rough terrain but I doubt his technical competence as he on Facebook very vocally and repeatedly blamed the S20 for not having enough mosfets (not as many as the master to be exact) after his drop incident on the demo wheel, I much rather trust tear-downs and opinions about technical aspects form ecodrift, e-rides or competent people here on the forums that know what they are talking about and can back it up with technical facts.

This is also a reminder not to buy early batch wheels if you are not sure about it, best course of action is always to wait if you are hesitant.

[fbhb]

4 hours ago, Rawnei said:

I much rather trust tear-downs and opinions about technical aspects form ecodrift, e-rides or competent people here on the forums that know what they are talking about and can back it up with technical facts.

I am of the same opinion, with a strong emphasis on ecodrift's teardown being the Only one I feel is thorough and backed up by solid engineering knowledge!

Edited February 28, 2022 by fbhb

[Tawpie]

That was a great review! I'm super glad eevees's had him really give it a hard work out.

The concerns I heard:

• the shock's oil reservoir is indeed more exposed than anyone wants it to be, I'll probably add something because I'm nowhere near as good as he is and will drop the wheel and break it.
• I don't know about the battery's durability, and do appreciate his pointing it out as a risk. This is probably something that we'll have to see how it works out over time. I also don't know if his concern comes just from the S18 or if he's had issues with batteries on the RS, so how much of a problem this is relative to other wheels is unknown to me. Either way, I won't be in the class of extreme rider so I won't be "as worried", but will probably start setting aside money for batteries just in case.
• Another thing I don't know much about is why it's limiting the power as the wheel gets going from a standstill. I do know that a near stalled motor is a difficult design problem and that as voltages and currents get higher the design considerations get complicated very quickly. One way to deal with it that's sort of the brute force option is to reduce/limit things until you get back into an operating range that has good design margin. Just guessing here, but what we're hearing is KS has chosen this route at least for the pre-production build. Whether or not they extend this into all production batches remains to be seen, but I expect this limiting to exist in my wheel—and probably stay there until there's a revised control board or maybe they'll do something in firmware. It might need a different motor with larger coil wires or magnet configuration too. I guess I'll just have to know that I don't have full power off the line. What's encouraging to me is that he didn't burn it up.
• The tire can slide out in sharp turns. Good to know. We should have a wide selection of replacement options!
• Parts are going to break off (lights I think, assuming the front handle is less breakable... the new handle won't be break-proof BTW, just less breakable. Think "more durable" handle). Riding like that, heck yeah, stuff's going to break.

Other notes:

He was riding a stock wheel. I'm wondering if any other wheel in stock configuration would keep up and how well it would hold up.

"More MOSFETs" is one approach to some problems, but I'm generally not a fan of adding parts willy nilly because each part adds complexity, is a failure opportunity and runs up the cost. In Electrical Engineering the KISS principle applies, especially if you want a reliable assembly. I can't judge a design I haven't seen, but there's always room for improvement (wink wink KS). When you need more power for your dragster, adding more pistons works for a while but eventually you end up at more air and better fuel as the viable approach.

All in all, I am so very impressed with Chance's skill and that the S20 kept up with him. I haven't watched all of youtube's off roading videos, but don't think I've ever seen anyone run that kind of terrain at that speed. I'll take comfort knowing that I'll have a wheel to grow into. If I don't kill myself hitting a tree first. I am going to have to watch my speed I think.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Tawpie

[techyiam]

Now sure whether this idea on the topic of range has been discussed before.

When we talk about range, most people would think of the distance an euc would be able to cover with a full battery. In addition, range will drop significantly if the travel speed is significantly higher, with all other variables held constant. Moreover, average speed is one of the common metric that is used to tied to range.

Average speed is the focus of this discussion. Average speed is commonly calculated by dividing the total distance traveled by the total elapsed time. (The speeds are time averaged) I am putting forth a hypothesis contending that the common average speed metric is more misleading than another average speed metric I have in mind when used to gauge range for scenarios where much lower speeds are also used for significant distances during the range test. Average speed is a single speed at which when travelling at, would result in the same elapsed time as in the actual trip travelling at various speeds. The average speed that I have in mind, averages speeds over distance, rather than over time. By this, I mean the following:

Consider a hypothetical scenario where the first half of a trip is ridden at 5 kph. And the latter half at 40 kph on a 20 km trip. Thus, the first half of the trip will take 2 hours, and 15 minutes for the latter half. A distance of 20 km traveled over 2.25 hours translates to an average speed of 8.9 kph. (Time averaged)

Whereas, in my proposed average speed, where speeds are average over distance, the calculation becomes as follows:

( 5 kph x 10 km + 40 kph x 10 km ) / 20 km = 22.5 kph.   

My hypothesis is that the 22.5 kph average speed would more accurately reflect the true battery energy consumption. By this, I mean the battery drain will be closer to the actual trip of going at 5 kph for the first half, and 40 kph for the last half, with the euc going the full distance traveling at 22.5 kph than at 8.9 kph.

Note also that the discrepancy would have been smaller should the difference in speeds between the first half and the second half is also smaller.

 For cases like Marty's range test, where he basically travels close to a targeted speed, time-averaged speed would be fine. But for other cases, perhaps in Jimmy Chang's range test, the time-averaged, average speed may be inaccurate and misleading. 

[Brendan "nog3" Halliday]

For anyone curious, with the latest firmware it is possible to tweak the rear light colors and animations (for idle state).

The standard animation is the single color breathing, marked as 'Auto Mode' in the Kingsong app. This can be set to any RGB color in the app using the color wheel, it takes the first color palette you set in the app for the animation.

There is also a breathing color mode that is the same breathing pattern as above but rotates through the RGB spectrum .

And then just because, there's also a rainbow mode:

 

I've asked Kingsong to add another option to this list, a solid single color always on mode. This means people could have a solid rear red light.