Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Rawnei]

55 minutes ago, yoos said:

I don't know how hard Ian rode the S20 (and for how long) but a crude estimate from wind drag alone [force~v², power~v³] suggests that consumption (wh/km) doubles when stepping up from 50kph to 70kph [air-drag-related consumption ~ power/speed ~ v²]. So if we assume that the S20 was going 40% faster than a 1500wh 84V wheel throughout the ride, then the range should be roughly 75% of the 84V EUC. [2220wh/1500wh / 2 = 75%]. The S20 also has a fat off-road tire which might boost rolling friction. Wet dirt and puddles can also be energy-consuming [don't know if that's negligible].

All-in-all I would not be so quick to blame short-range on the controller-motor combo. Any energy lost on controller/motor would be lost as heat. If we assume, e.g. going at 2500W and, say 20% was lost on the controller/motor, that would mean 500W worth of heating. I am not sure the S20 could dissipate so much heat. This estimate was just to point out that motor/controller inefficiencies should not contribute dramatically to the apparent range reduction.

 

I doubt he was doing 70kmh for long stretches though as he did seem to do a lot of muddy terrain and gravel paths.

A range test with EUC World tour recording would be awesome. 😁

Edited February 23, 2022 by Rawnei

[Planemo]

5 hours ago, EMA said:

a spring/coil suspension is better for heavy duty and big drops --> bike/skate park

There is no reason why a coil would be chosen over an air based on terrain.

5 hours ago, EMA said:

for a general all round use an air shock will provide a better experience, it handle better small imperfections

Quite the opposite. For clarity, I will totally leave damping out of this.

The single, only reason for using coil is total elimination of stiction, although zero service requirements is also a bonus.

Air springs have at least 4 big O rings, all of which need to remain lubricated and serviced. These O rings contribute to more stiction than you realise, they have to run a tight fit because of the pressures used within the can. Stiction is the No1 cause of lack of small bump compliance.

The ONLY reason that air springs are hugely more prolific than coils is because of one benefit  - they are easy to adjust to a riders weight, which is indeed their trump card.

Coils will ALWAYS give a more compliant ride on all terrains, but the downside is they have to be specced to the riders weight to provide the correct sag. Other than that, coil will always be better, discounting that they are slightly heavier but even that has been minimised nowadays.

[Rolzi]

 

Speedyfeet is using a bit over 50 wh/km if we calculate the whole pack (2200wh) from full charge to tiltback.

Here we have Ginger on wheels using 52 wh/km with the Sherman. Note the average speed while riding of 21.4 mph vs 22 for speedyfeet (this might be just average not average while riding which would be even more for speedyfeet): 

Here we have absolute blaster using 73.33 wh/km with RS (not sure which version) with 29.2 mph while riding:

I think people really underestimate how much power it takes to really push the wheel.

I have no reason to believe there is any foul differences between vees 66.6 miles range, Martys 67 miles on the mountains (with 20% charge in the middle) And speedyfeets 29.6 and 27.6 with even harder riding.

So i see no efficiency differences. Yet.

I also encourage you to go calculate some wh/km amounts and comparing it to speed while riding value. If you have some logged in EUC world etc. You might be suprised at the results. My Sherman rides are around 37 wh/km with around 12.5 mph while riding. I can easily see it rising to 50 wh/km territory or even more if my average while riding would rise to 20+.

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2022 by Rolzi

[Paul A]

Wouldn't it be just easier to wait for one of the other YouTubers, in a warmer climate, to conduct a range test, starting from 100% full charge, at a more usual speed?

[Rawnei]

7 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Wouldn't it be just easier to wait for one of the other YouTubers, in a warmer climate, to conduct a range test, starting from 100% full charge, at a more usual speed?

How would that make having a discussion easier? 😂

[supercurio]

9 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Wouldn't it be just easier to wait for one of the other YouTubers, in a warmer climate, to conduct a range test, starting from 100% full charge, at a more usual speed?

It might take some time, since for now it would requires to use a custom charger which can provide 126V (like the fast one I have with adjustable voltage) - or Kingsong to send a better charger.
Maybe when eWheels ships its very early batch to their customers, which I heard is planned in only a few weeks. These should get actual 126V chargers, right?

However is there a link between the unclear statements which were made regarding boards and 126V from the first 3 meters (makes no sense to me whatsoever) and the fact Kingsong shipped these prototypes with chargers not outputting 126V. Probably not, but hopefully that'll be clarified later.

Edited February 23, 2022 by supercurio

[Paradox]

RevRides has a range test.

 

[Paradox]

They show average speed at 15.4mph and top speed at 27.3mph yet say right after that average speed was 30mph.  Some points in the ride look very slow.

Source video:

https://youtu.be/TOxV-WirXBQ?t=183

 

[Rolzi]

34 minutes ago, Paradox said:

They show average speed at 15.4mph and top speed at 27.3mph yet say right after that average speed was 30mph.  Some points in the ride look very slow.

Source video:

https://youtu.be/TOxV-WirXBQ?t=183

 

I think they meant to say 13 was the speed. Still I would rather look at the speed while riding (unless the wheel sits for hours with lights on etc.).

221 lb rider, 59 miles = 23.2 wh/km

173 lb rider, 65 miles = 21.2 wh/km

Edited February 23, 2022 by Rolzi

[Freeforester]

11 minutes ago, Paradox said:

They show average speed at 15.4mph and top speed at 27.3mph yet say right after that average speed was 30mph.  Some points in the ride look very slow.

Source video:

https://youtu.be/TOxV-WirXBQ?t=183

 

Maybe the ‘average speed’ was  calculated in series (2 riders doing 15mph each), lol. BMS? That stands for bullxxxx mileage synopsis, right?

[Paradox]

2 minutes ago, Rolzi said:

I think they meant to say 13 was the speed

They clearly say "...with an average speed of 30mph..." in the sourced video.

[supercurio]

This range test at 15.4 mph / 25km/h average of roughly would tend to confirm a real world range of the S20 is on par with an 18XL / 16X or other 1500Wh class wheels, which can reach about the same at that type of constant low speed.
Their test had some elevation however.

[Paradox]

In the EucWorld screenshot it shows 100% battery? Yet only 95.2v?

[Paradox]

The journey time of 6:20 seems to confirm a speed about 15mph and distance of 59 miles.

[Rolzi]

10 minutes ago, supercurio said:

This range test at 15.4 mph / 25km/h average of roughly would tend to confirm a real world range of the S20 is on par with an 18XL / 16X or other 1500Wh class wheels, which can reach about the same at that type of constant low speed.
Their test had some elevation however.

Surely you mean the speedyfeet range test that got 36 miles of the 18XL? Just kidding.

[yoos]

Note that instant consumption depends on instant speed. Just like with a car trip, your average speed on tour is not enough to determine total consumption. And just like with cars it's more efficient to go at constant speed than going at varying speeds. So ideally we need a full tour profile to judge whether the EUC is performing properly or there are some abnormalities and range is indeed less than it should be.

I sincerely think that battery capacity (2220Wh in this case) is simply a better metric than attempting to pin down a single "real-life range", at least for us experienced users. Real life and usage is very different between riders. Some participate in stop-and-go city traffic, others fly at top speed on a highway, still others stay slow on a forest path. The standard test used by manufacturers is definitely the best-case-scenario range (just like the unachievable mileage indicated by car manufacturers). EUC range depends so much on speed/riding style, weather (temperature and wind), rider size and aerodynamics (some ride seated others stand tall and wide) that it's not a property of the product, it's a result of usage case multiplied by battery size. EUC range is a bit like discussing "horse range" -- mode of usage is key.

Higher performance, especially top speed, encourages more aggressive riding, that's why typically high-end EUCs have lower range than one might expect from battery size alone.

 

Edited February 23, 2022 by yoos

[supercurio]

19 minutes ago, Paradox said:

In the EucWorld screenshot it shows 100% battery? Yet only 95.2v?

It would be because EUC World percentage calculation is based on the wrong voltage range for the S20 at the moment, instead of displaying the % provided by the wheel.

95.2V is 3.17V per cell (probably 3.15V or lower under load) and it appears to be the final tiltback voltage on the S20 at the moment.

9 minutes ago, Rolzi said:

Surely you mean the speedyfeet range test that got 36 miles of the 18XL? Just kidding.

Haha yes it shows how much faster Ian is able to ride the S20 than he was the 18XL on roughly the same road & terrain.
I guess that on this generation, battery capacity is not scaling with the energy requirements following the enhanced speed & capabilities.

[Flying W]

On my RST during the work week commuting I use up 30% or so in 10miles most of the time. If I'm running late and just hammering off the line after every red light and on the beeper whenever possible it will consume almost half. 

On the other hand if been able to get 50miles out of it riding much slower enjoying the scenery. 

I'm pretty confident the S20 would get me a little more range having a larger battery of I'm riding at the same speeds as my RS. 

I would have liked to have seen speedy feet start at a full battery though. I think mid 30s would have possible in those conditions (he said it was not only cold but windy as well and he's tall). 

 

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, Rolzi said:

I think people really underestimate how much power it takes to really push the wheel.

I think this aspect will continue for ever and a day to get lost on people too!

Even just taking wind resistance into account, riding at 40mph instead of 20mph takes 4x the power. It's entirely possible to take a healthy 1865Wh wheel from 100% to 40% in 20miles, as I did. And even then I wasn't pushing a constant high speed. I reckon it could have dropped to as low as 30% if I had.

[Paradox]

I suspect there will be an S20XL.   Larger battery capacity to go along with all the bells and whistles. 

[FrenchUsa]

3 minutes ago, Paradox said:

I suspect there will be an S20XL.   Larger battery capacity to go along with all the bells and whistles. 

like EX20S but with 126v

[supercurio]

Interesting comment form Ian on his range test video, source:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwSA_n3UQmc&lc=UgwNOmjy98XL6AsKSlJ4AaABAg.9YmwybDG9O39YnO9IdmwSb

After he confirmed that the wheel displays shows the same (invalid) % as the Kingsong app, aka 17% with 0% SOC.

Quoting Ian:

I will be watching it closely from here to the 1000km mark.

FYI got sent this by Kingsong, but have asked them to let me know what it actually means as a lot of it is very wobbly english (to note; I did not ask these questions, but assume someone did!), also note point 4, I left the charger green for 12 hours to see if it pushed it on app to 100% but it remained at 94% - but softuner was showing 100% as normal so no surprise, but tried anyway):

"1: about motor line go line location hinder the charging plug, this cannot be changed, because if the motor line to rear can affect the shock absorber 
2: become warped plate Angle adjustable late this will optimize the 
3: by means of firmware upgrade later on in the high speed motor torque is not adjust output current optimization program, let customers upgrade firmware upgrade way behind 
4: Charger only to ninety-six percent, this is to connect app see charging current shall prevail, even if the charger green state will still have a little to continue in charge of 
5: output current tail light bright enough, this can't continue to optimize the 
6: the rear lights to signal, the new firmware have rear lights to light water, if you don't have this function to update the latest firmware to 
7: Speed makes a noise, motherboard screw holes position plus 
8: plastic gasket for the vehicle weight, tie rod shoulds not be too long, otherwise it will affect the pull rod easy bending rigidity 
9: motor has reflect motor factory, big goods will improve later "

Edited February 23, 2022 by supercurio

[Rolzi]

13 minutes ago, yoos said:

I sincerely think that battery capacity (2220Wh in this case) is simply a better metric than attempting to pin down a single "real-life range", at least for us experienced users.

The thing is some really want to believe that 2220Wh with this particular wheel is no better than 1800wh or even 1500wh. If we get the tiltback reduced to 3.0v from 3.15 I don't think there is going to be anything mysterious if we have identical riding, weather, weight etc.

 

2 minutes ago, Flying W said:

I'm pretty confident the S20 would get me a little more range having a larger battery of I'm riding at the same speeds as my RS. 

This is the confidence many are lacking.

 

4 minutes ago, Planemo said:

I think this aspect will continue for ever and a day to get lost on people too!

11 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Even just taking wind resistance into account, riding at 40mph instead of 20mph takes 4x the power. It's entirely possible to take a healthy 1865Wh wheel from 100% to 40% in 20miles, as I did. And even then I wasn't pushing a constant high speed. I reckon it could have dropped to as low as 30% if I had.

40% would be 34.8 wh/km and 30% 40.6 wh/km

[RagingGrandpa]

On 2/21/2022 at 6:04 PM, Paul A said:

Active suspension.

Could it just be easily transplanted from cars to EUCs?

Retrofit car parts to an EUC? Nearly impossible...

Added to the design by the EUC company? It's possible... but bear in mind it would require a shock with electrically-actuated damping bypass valves, and also an additional accelerometer in the unsprung part of the suspension. Both add cost & complexity.

Since we don't have these adaptive damper parts available in other higher-volume small vehicles like MTB and eScooter, it would be almost unthinkable for an EUC company to create it from scratch and proliferate it in the market.

Being able to use standard MTB shocks is the cornerstone of today's KS and GW/BG suspension concepts. And thank goodness they do, since I don't trust either of them to create a custom damper with any level of reliability  

[Eucner]

13 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Even just taking wind resistance into account, riding at 40mph instead of 20mph takes 4x the power.

That's correct for drag force, for power it is 8x.