Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Funky]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

If “sidewall collapse“ was the recipe for wobbles, wouldn’t a low tire pressure make it wobble more?

Not really if you think about it.. Wobble happens if tire isn't completely straight, or you hit something while riding. Or if you ride completely straight like a zombie. - No micro movements left/right.

But because tire is "softer" it can move around, compress to the ground, more contact area to ground.. But solid tire will be more harsh to ride. 25 vs 35 Psi difference is noticeable. One feels smooth/soft. Other one feels like you are riding on knife edge, same time can feel all small bumps and road buzz. Naturally riding on knife edge you would wobble more.. Even if you aren't wobbling anymore. At higher PSI you got higher probability of getting said wobbles, than on lower PSI one.

 

Same as walking on rope vs plank. Which one is better? Thin rope that isn't stable(High psi.) Or flat plank? (Low psi, big contact area to ground.)

 

The harder the tire, the more bumpy ride. That's why i like riding 30psi. Because it's so comfy. Ofc riding lower psi one should slow down at any bumps/curbs, or may risking getting a flat.. Being 280lbs and riding ~30psi haven't had any problems. So anyone who doesn't jump curbs and are lighter can lower their PSI, for better ride quality.

[Funky]

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

yes, exactly my point. veterans telling rookies to lower their tire pressure to make their initial attempts easier because of the flattened tire. 

then they go to stop, and add the extra force of trying to stop all that mass, so the sidewalls collapse and the "wobbles" begin. 

maybe there is a beginner wobble when braking, i've never experienced it. i did experience the total collapse of the little s2's tire when i was trying to hold 165 pound Bob back. besides ,my weight, which was waaaay over the 70kg if that rated tire. 9bot didn't even have a rating on their s2 if i remember correctly.

anyway, if ur on one of these new euc's with decent rated tires, and ur getting wobbles, check ur air pressure. they usually say rated for x and x psi.

Wrong.. High psi tire only middle of the tire contacts the ground. It's the same as riding on thin knife edge.. Because only middle of tire is contacting the ground at any moment.

But at lower psi the contact area is 2-3x bigger. And riders lose that feeling of riding on knife edge.

 

I can confirm that myself. Because when i started to ride. I could not go anything above 30 psi. Wheel would wanna wobble anytime i tried to go faster than 25km/h. Also while riding it felt like i will fall on one or other side. Because of that "knife edge" feeling. At 28 psi i lost all that feeling and i could go faster than 25km/h without ANY WOBBLES at all. I didn't get them at all - when i lowered the PSI.

The wheel itself felt "squirrelly/squirmy" as it had its own mind, wanted to go left/right without my input. But at lower PSI that went away..

Only after i had ridden more than 300km, i could increase the PSI to 35+ without any wobbles and that feeling of riding on knife edge.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Funky

[novazeus]

7 minutes ago, Funky said:

Wrong.. High psi tire only middle of the tire contacts the ground. It's the same as riding on thin knife edge.. Because only middle of tire is contacting the ground at any moment.

But at lower psi the contact area is 2-3x bigger. And riders lose that feeling of riding on knife edge.

 

I can confirm that myself. Because when i started to ride. I could not go anything above 30 psi. Wheel would wanna wobble anytime i tried to go faster than 25km/h. Also while riding it felt like i will fall on one or other side. Because of that "knife edge" feeling. At 28 psi i lost all that feeling and i could go faster than 25km/h without ANY WOBBLES at all. I didn't get them at all - when i lowered the PSI.

The wheel itself felt "squirrelly" as it had its own mind wanted, to go left/right without my input. But at lower PSI that went away..

Only after i had ridden more than 400km i could increase the PSI to 35+ without any wobbles and that feeling of riding on knife edge.

depends on the tire profile/shape. specifically though, and u made my point about it being easier to ride on a deflated tire, but i was referring to the wobbles that happen when braking. i remember ian's side kick braking and wobbling. he is heavier than ian. 

i mean, what do people think causes wobbles with beginners, nerves, haha. legs trembling? idk, the only experience i had with wobbles ever, was from severely overloading an underrated  tire.

[Funky]

11 minutes ago, novazeus said:

depends on the tire profile/shape. specifically though, and u made my point about it being easier to ride on a deflated tire, but i was referring to the wobbles that happen when braking. i remember ian's side kick braking and wobbling. he is heavier than ian. 

i mean, what do people think causes wobbles with beginners, nerves, haha. legs trembling? idk, the only experience i had with wobbles ever, was from severely overloading an underrated  tire.

Well i didn't haven wobbles at braking. I had mine at speeding up.  But at lower psi all the problems went away.

And now havent had any at all for past half year. I don't even think about them anymore.

 

New riders - using muscles that they never in life used before. Also muscle memory.. I don't even think how i ride/mount the wheel anymore. Simply go.            Same thing as toddler learning to walk - they aren't running. Same thing as learning to ride a bike.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Funky

[mrelwood]

 

6 hours ago, novazeus said:

i mean, what do people think causes wobbles with beginners

Tense legs, especially when using unfamiliar muscles without much control. Tense legs amplify each tiny bounce and allow them to lash out into a resonance. Like a tight guitar/bass string rings out much stronger and longer than a floppy one.

 Often when riders try to sit for the first time while riding, they start to wobble immediately as they crouch because they tense their ankles and legs, and let their heels to lift up. Relax the ankles and let the heels stay on the pedals and the wobbles go away immediately.

 When a rider gets tired, they lose their muscular support, so they have to tense their tired muscles which easily leads to wobbles.

A trailer with insufficient tire pressures looses control for very different reasons. It doesn’t wobble in the same sense. I haven’t seen anyone suggest “sidewall collapse” before as a reason for wobbling, and I must say that I can’t see the physics of how it would even work. The theories above though have been confirmed by countless riders multiple times.

[novazeus]

chooch isn't a beginner, so what caused this wobble?

but the other beginner wobble could be correct because my legs didn't touch the wheel, i just stood on the pedals.

https://youtu.be/1lyZNTQZmas

Edited December 18, 2022 by novazeus

[Funky]

18 minutes ago, novazeus said:

chooch isn't a beginner, so wht caused this wobble?

but the other beginner wobble could be correct because my legs didn't touch the wheel, i just stood on the pedals.https://youtu.be/1lyZNTQZmas

New wheel.. No pads.. Not used to that specific wheel. Tire may have not been completely straight. There are many things that could have induced that wobble.

I bet if i rode Sherman Max for the first time - i also would have to "relearn" some things.

[novazeus]

like i've said, and i've seen others have it, and like it's been said, the subject has been beat to death, i just hope i never experience what chooch did in that video. 

only "wobble" i ever had was the s2 tire getting squashed with my 200 pound plus, the weight of the wheel, and then me braking to hold back 165 pound Bob. when the tire collapse i was practically at a standstill. it was very obvious what happened. it went side to side maybe twice and then just fell over taking me with it and at that point i let go of Bob's leash, or else he'd probably dragged me down the road.

Bob is the ultimate pull test. 

[mrelwood]

10 hours ago, novazeus said:

chooch isn't a beginner, so what caused this wobble?

Like @Funky said, unfamiliar wheel that weighs more than half of Chooch’s weight, and no pads. The wobble happened during the first few minutes, but didn’t come back since he already got more familiar with the wheel.

 One thing’s for sure, sidewall collapse had nothing to do with that wobble. The Abrams uses a heavy duty motorcycle tire.

10 hours ago, novazeus said:

me braking to hold back 165 pound Bob.

When trying to hold back a pulling dog I would think that you weren’t all that relaxed. When braking, the wheel is also in front of you causing an unstable system. Dog pulling you destabilizes it even more. It’s a complex and difficult riding situation that surely requires practice.

 What was your tire pressure at that time btw?

[novazeus]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Like @Funky said, unfamiliar wheel that weighs more than half of Chooch’s weight, and no pads. The wobble happened during the first few minutes, but didn’t come back since he already got more familiar with the wheel.

 One thing’s for sure, sidewall collapse had nothing to do with that wobble. The Abrams uses a heavy duty motorcycle tire.

When trying to hold back a pulling dog I would think that you weren’t all that relaxed. When braking, the wheel is also in front of you causing an unstable system. Dog pulling you destabilizes it even more. It’s a complex and difficult riding situation that surely requires practice.

 What was your tire pressure at that time btw?

 

no, there was no tenseness at all. i had walked Bob that way many many times before, i thought he was behaved well enough for the little toy s2 pos. it wasn't. np on the ks 18s. 

yeah, it does take lots of practice balancing to be able to walk an unruly dog. 

like i said, jurys aren't smart, but when a manufacturer puts an underrated tire on a device, they are toast.

u know, i never gripped my ktm 525 exc, stood on those pedals too.

not limber enough to grab the top of the wheel the way some do.

the tire pressure on all my euc tires are set at max sidewall pressure. 

no, i agree, that wasn't sidewall deflection. 

i had to fix the damn s2 tire because after riding it alot, the frigging bead dislodge a bit and around ten mph, it would wobble. i put it up on two by fours and i could see it. i deflated the tire a bit and used dawn soap to luricate it and popped it back in, no more wobbles. 

ya, i was balancing almost still, braking and Bob pulling. ain't no doubt in my mind, the sidewall collapsed, u can feel it. i was doing fine balancing and holding Bob, if i had been on the z10 or 18s(even though it was only rated at 95kg) there would have been no problem. wasn't really a wobble, just a splat to one side. i'm pretty sure in a court of law, it wouldn't be hard to prove manufacturers negligence.

i kept hearing about wobbles, and kept expecting to get them, but i never did and couldn't understand why. my legs don't touch the body of the wheel at all. i stand on the pedals and control the wheel with my feet. i tried today in my 2x4 rails to put my feet tight to the wheel and it wasn't me. i mean, in the old days, yeah, my feet would leave the pedals momentarily, like if the z10 hit that root in the road, but they land right back in the same place.

u know on this forum, there's all kinds of different riders trying to accomplish different things, my objective is a mobility assistance device, and if anybody asks me, that's what i'm gonna tell them, because i did break my ankle and after 20 miles or so of walking, normal day at the ranch, it honestly does hurt(could be the cancer).

so, i don't need jumping pads, besides king song book say don't jump euc, haha. i'm glad there's young guys willing to flog their euc and hopefully not their bodys(trees don't give). if the wheels can take their beatings, surely it can get me to the lab and back, a mile away. same with dentist, pharmacy, outlet mall. if these things become reliable, they'll probably be 2000 apts here in a couple of years and with everything next door, all they need is an euc, and someone to get them started.

btw, the s18 tire on max pressure is more challenging than my v10 i had, almost as wonky as max pressure z10.

really not liking the tire tread picking up aggregate and holding on to it and scraping the inside of that to close to the tire fender king song put on. i guess they think everyone runs their euc's flat.

Edited December 19, 2022 by novazeus
added for clarification

[techyiam]

11 hours ago, Funky said:

New wheel.. No pads.. Not used to that specific wheel. Tire may have not been completely straight. There are many things that could have induced that wobble.

I think you are mostly right, except the stock pads were on when Chooch rode it.

My Abrams has never wobbled on me yet.

In the early days when the Abrams were first shipped, there were reports of wobbles. But also, for some reason, the tires were deflated when received, and the tire bead unmounted, exposing the tire sealant to air, and thus solidified. Perhaps, this could have been one of the factors. My Abrams was shipped to me with the tire reasonably inflated, and the tire bead was properly seated.

If I had to compared the Abrams to the V12 regarding wobbling, I would have to say the Abrams would be a lot less prone to wobbling, out of the box. However, right now with the right setup, my V12 doesn't wobble. 

[novazeus]

geez, i see the s22 fender is pretty close to the tire. 

has anybody picked up rocks in those big knobbys and had it rub the fender?

[gon2fast]

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

has anybody picked up rocks in those big knobbys and had it rub the fender?

I pass smaller rocks through the front fender quite often. Can't say that I have picked up anything large enough to get jammed other than dried clay breaking off and bouncing around between the tire and fender. My biggest issue is that the rocks that come through the front of the fender usually shoot upwards. I have been hit in the legs and torso while standing and have caught a few to the helmet while sitting. I have all of the components to extend the front fender, but lack the motivation. Really, I would like to have a replacement fender on hand so if my idea is crap or I cause mass destruction I can easily return to stock config.

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, gon2fast said:

the rocks that come through the front of the fender usually shoot upwards.

That seems odd, but thank you for the warning! I have small rocks traverse through the S18 all the time and hadn't notice getting peppered... Your fender extender is a good idea, I had one on the S18 until it broke (3D printed, broke along the layer line) but I really liked it because it really did keep water spray under control.

[Funky]

8 hours ago, techyiam said:

except the stock pads were on when Chooch rode it.

Doh can you really "call" those pads?  The sides are so smooth that legs could simply slide over them. My 18xl also has stock "pads".  

[techyiam]

19 hours ago, Funky said:

Doh can you really "call" those pads?  The sides are so smooth that legs could simply slide over them. My 18xl also has stock "pads".  

You are not wrong with that sentiment. That's what I kept hearing since the release of the Abrams. And, I shared that view until the first time I got on an Abrams with no pads.

Those narrow pads do help for sure, but how well depends on how they are used, and enhanced.

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by techyiam

[Paradox]

10 hours ago, novazeus said:

geez, i see the s22 fender is pretty close to the tire. 

has anybody picked up rocks in those big knobbys and had it rub the fender?

 

[novazeus]

i mean, u don't see tight fenders on off road vehicles. i guess i'll change my tire to a street tire when everybody has a concensus which is best. 

[5Cauac]

6 hours ago, Funky said:

Doh can you really "call" those pads?  The sides are so smooth that legs could simply slide over them.

I can recall the time I was at a demo event where there was a Sherman Max that had no pads. I jumped on it to give it a try and when I went to break, I fell right off the back as I came to a crawl. The wheel just kept rolling on it's own after my ass hit the floor. 

[5Cauac]

3 hours ago, Paradox said:

eez, i see the s22 fender is pretty close to the tire. 

has anybody picked up rocks in those big knobbys and had it rub the fender?

As others have stated, small rocks do get passed through from time to time. You can hear it a lot in my S18 videos. Never had anything large get wedged in. 

[Paul A]

13 hours ago, gon2fast said:

Can't say that I have picked up anything large enough to get jammed

 

Does happen.

 

 

[novazeus]

i'd like a tire profile like this i think on all my euc's.

[novazeus]

whee! big fun!

but actually easier than the s18, but i did do a tiny bit of practice on it yesterday.

fixed the pedals so my van’s will work. my mind isn’t quick enough to lift and then put down my foot. the van’s with those waffle soles really lock in, almost fell over in the container screwing around.

fixed the spikes with a thinner yoga mat and duct tape. i might get some anti slip tape to put over the whole mess.

no problem getting to my gate, although going 5 mph on a big wheel, does take some chubby checkers action. taking off and turning back from my gate i got wonky and had to step off still holding my wheel with my left leg, like i intended to do that. i think, the way i ride, with my feet on the outside of the pedals, this baby is gonna be very maneuverable. def not giving riding lessons here because  i’m not like any human probably on this forum because i’m taking about 2000mg of thc daily to keep my terminal cancer at bay, but haha, one of the side effects is static ataxia. mske me laugh i can ride an euc but sometimes i catch myself falling over just standing.

the tire seemed fine. it was at 38.5, down from the 41 i put in it. but the knobby picked up less or no aggregate like the s18 did(it’s like fingernails on a chalkboard or worse).

suspension is tight as can be, but it’s rideable. i’ll see what the pasture does to it.

and i’m really glad i took the time and set up my beginner rails. if u can go back and forth inbetween those boards without touching, ur ready. helps me find my feet position. 

for me, the wheel is like a steering wheel on a car. generally when i used to drive, i had a very light touch on the steering wheel. old timers will tell u that our vehicles were such shit, u had to steer with ur fingers there was so much slop in the recirculating ball type steering mechanism. so i treat the wheel like the steering wheel of a car, but instead of hands, light inputs with my feet.

seems natural. i did take karate for awhile and i’d turn on light switches with my toes and shit, so i feel like my feet are pretty coordinated. i don’t know how to ride with my legs touching the wheel or in my case, the yoga mat.

 

[Curt8892]

I have been having issues with one of the temp sensors in the battery. It goes super high when charging and it causes the batteries not to charge with a 10 amp charger. 
 

I was told the the soldering  job of that sensor may not have been done currently as all the other sensors are working fine. 
 

I have taken the battery out but have no idea how to fined the sensor let alone fix it (I have soldered before, 🤞🏿). 
 

Do we have a tutorial video on this issue floating around?

 

I will look at the KS battery videos but I am sure they did not cover the heat sensors. 
 

Thank you 

[Rawnei]

7 hours ago, Curt8892 said:

I have been having issues with one of the temp sensors in the battery. It goes super high when charging and it causes the batteries not to charge with a 10 amp charger. 
 

I was told the the soldering  job of that sensor may not have been done currently as all the other sensors are working fine. 
 

I have taken the battery out but have no idea how to fined the sensor let alone fix it (I have soldered before, 🤞🏿). 
 

Do we have a tutorial video on this issue floating around?

 

I will look at the KS battery videos but I am sure they did not cover the heat sensors. 
 

Thank you 

There are 6 sensors placed on the cells themselves, you can see them in this video here:

How to identify the specific sensor, having done a repair job I know that sensors 5 and 3 are at the top of the battery, sensors 4 and 2 are in the middle, sensors 6 and 1 is at the bottom but can't tell if which one is front or back. Did you take a note which sensors # it was? Should give you a clue and narrow it down to 2 possible.