Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Wolverine]

1 hour ago, NErider said:

What do you mean the S22 suspension can not be adjusted? It has an oil filled shock with a compression and rebound adjuster as well as a replaceable coil spring with a threaded shock body for adjusting preload, and multiple connection points of the suspension linkage to change the geometry and overall height. 

The V11 has...an air shock only.

I did not write that it could not be adjusted at all. Please read this text once more and you will understand it better. I wrote that it is possible to adjust the suspension of the Inmotion V11 very thoroughly and find a best solution that suits for rider. You can have a suspension pump with you, and you can change suspension behavior when for example you change the terrain or the way you ride. It's the kind of thing you don't do with the S20 / S22 because you don't have that much room to play with the suspension. As you said yourself, you can replace the S20 / S22 parts and build the suspension yourself as the rider wants. With the V11, you don't have to replace anything to get the suspension exactly the way you want it, because fully adjustable suspension is already built in.

Disassembly and adjustment of the suspension is nothing new for the owners of the Kingsong suspension wheels, a large part of the owners of the S18 had to do it. Same goes with the S20 / S22.

[Cress]

The S20/22 fire can move EUC development forward if it forces attention to battery performance.  Batteries that 'sag', fail (fires), cut-out, or have short service-life are installed in EUCs the battery is inadequate to power (that's a lot of EUCs !).  EUC Manufacturers don't have engineering staff to review EUC design, do controlled testing and measurement, then consider power demands against battery performance.  EUC buyers look for watt-hour ratings without knowing how much energy the battery delivers to an EUC.  Without facts the Manufacturer produces what we buy - high watt-hour capacity batteries that don't match EUC demands.

eWheels deserves credit for offering a choice of batteries, including choice for the S20/22.  I'm hoping for user-reports, an accurate comparison built through a large number of reports.      

The engineers at KingSong can go back to work on firmware and take advantage of high-discharge Li-ion cells.  KingSong could lead the industry to safer, high-performing batteries and move marketing away batteries that don't belong in EUCs.  

There is always hope.

I'm looking for the first user-reports.

[Paul A]

King Song Production and Quality Control video

677 views

Aug 11, 2017

King Song International

3.69K subscribers

There are about 20 firms manufacture and selling EUC in a large scale, only about 10 of them have R & D ability for a motherboard.

King Song has become the top company which owns the core technology of Independent R&D on both mainboard and appearance.

In the last 5 years, self-balancing vehicle sales kept increasing, as more and more people accept this way of transportation and recreation, the demand will grow rapidly.

So it’s your time to grasp the opportunity to cooperate with King Song, let’s create miracles together!

 

 

[Paul A]

https://www.kingsong.com/aboutkingsong.html

About King Song

[Cress]

 

@Paul A - I appreciate and I'm impressed by King Song marketing.  I think the marketing doesn't explain the design / production / development process.

EUC Manufacturers, including King Song, make errors that are only explainable if nobody who understands the technology looked at the design before it was produced.  We are accustomed to products that are reviewed by multiple people from multiple disciplines and that is not happening with EUC Manufacturers before the design goes to production - after production we have beta-testing and we have forums like ElectricUnicycles.org.  Reviews via ElectricUnicycle.org make points that are exactly correct but are not used for Manufacturer's review and not part of the Manufacturer's process. 

EUC Manufacturers are accomplishing more than one-off kinds of machines made by a single person,  EUC evolution is faster because the Manufacturing community produces continuing iterations.  We're stuck with uneven progress and memorable failures because EUC Manufacturers follow different rules and different organizational process. 

@supercurio and others have said, essentially, 'transparent communication with Manufacturers is key to making the Manufacturing process better.'  I agree.

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Cress
word choice

[Paul A]

Even Toyota has had models that were not so great.

Early adopters will continue to be the guinea pigs.

Could just wait for the later generations.

[Cress]

33 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Even Toyota has had models that were not so great.

Early adopters will continue to be the guinea pigs.

Could just wait for the later generations.

@PaulA - You've got it !   I agree.  I'm also frustrated and impatient like most people on this forum. 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Cress
Levity

[Elliott Reitz]

Per discussion above comparing S22 to V11, the S22 wins hands down.  The S18 is better off-road than the V11 and the V11 felt the most top heavy of the three.  The power up sloaps and into the wind on the S22 is on par with my MSX-100V which is also a 43mph wheel.  For me 39 is a wind-limited light-gear comfort max.  The MSX 100V and the S22 are up to that.  The V11 and S18 just aren't.  And my commute features 30 mph 2 lane roads with no bike lanes (people drive 35-40 so a wheel needs that speed with 5mph more margine for safety sake).  

For me, suspension = REQUIRED.  From there, best wheel is one I can get now or already have (S22 - but good luck getting one).  For that I think the S18 is the best Buy It Now available wheel.   The S22 exceeds what the V11 and S18 can do on-road and off-road.  PS:  Here's a mud-ride from this weekend.  Dad didn't think I could get up the hill at all with it.  I did have to walk it a total of about 15 yards. 

 

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

Per discussion above comparing S22 to V11, the S22 wins hands down.  The S18 is better off-road than the V11 and the V11 felt the most top heavy of the three.  The power up sloaps and into the wind on the S22 is on par with my MSX-100V which is also a 43mph wheel.  For me 39 is a wind-limited light-gear comfort max.  The MSX 100V and the S22 are up to that.  The V11 and S18 just aren't.  And my commute features 30 mph 2 lane roads with no bike lanes (people drive 35-40 so a wheel needs that speed with 5mph more margine for safety sake).

Interesting comparison, although rather one sided. If you require a speed of 45mph, a bucket of trash that goes 45 would win all world class wheels that are limited to 40. For literally the rest of the world it isn’t “hands down”.

 Considering that you have modified your S18 with an extremely heavy hand but to my recollection don’t own a V11 makes that comparison also as unfair as it can be.

I have been readjusting and even disassembling S18 suspensions a bit in group rides to get the suspension to do anything so they’d keep up. No luck, requires a 20 hour rebuild with additional special order parts. Btw, you can’t even top up the suspension properly due to a design fault. The S18 also comes with a slippery street tire, and the available power simply doesn’t get us 230lbs guys up steeper off road inclines. Then there is the horrible handle, lack of proper ride mode settings, insufficient range, bad turn radius due to the upper shell width, etc…

Compared to what’s been available for years, the S18 is nothing but a DIY kit of a wheel, and a lousy off-roader at that.

But these are personal and subjective opinions. Someone might value the looks of the S18 over everything else, which would indeed make it the only choice. For actual riders though…

[chanman]

Bit off topic now, but would like to chime in that the suspension on my S18 received March 2021 works quite well with no modifications. Pumped up to correct pressure for me every few months, sprayed sliders with silicone lube every couple weeks (no disassembly). I also do plenty of offroady shenanigans on the street tire, although would like to switch to a knobby at some point.

I also think the handle is great. Easy to one hand it up a flight of stairs, and the balance and height for trolleying is perfect. Inmotion trolley handles are too low for my 6' frame.

Well known that M50T 3P battery is anemic for trying to push high speeds or steep inclines if you're heavier and/or lower on charge.

Edited April 18, 2022 by chanman
Added handle.

[Rawnei]

5 minutes ago, chanman said:

Bit off topic now, but would like to chime in that the suspension on my S18 received March 2021 works quite well with no modifications. Pumped up to correct pressure for me every few months, sprayed sliders with silicone lube every couple weeks (no disassembly). I also do plenty of offroady shenanigans on the street tire, although would like to switch to a knobby at some point.

The suspension of the S22 bear little resemblance to the one in the S18, the only similarity is the linkage, both the coil spring and the sliding mechanism is completely different.

[chanman]

Am aware, just wanted to post a response to the S18 bash post above.

[Elliott Reitz]

14 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Interesting comparison, although rather one sided. If you require a speed of 45mph, a bucket of trash that goes 45 would win all world class wheels that are limited to 40. For literally the rest of the world it isn’t “hands down”.

 Considering that you have modified your S18 with an extremely heavy hand but to my recollection don’t own a V11 makes that comparison also as unfair as it can be.

I have been readjusting and even disassembling S18 suspensions a bit in group rides to get the suspension to do anything so they’d keep up. No luck, requires a 20 hour rebuild with additional special order parts. Btw, you can’t even top up the suspension properly due to a design fault. The S18 also comes with a slippery street tire, and the available power simply doesn’t get us 230lbs guys up steeper off road inclines. Then there is the horrible handle, lack of proper ride mode settings, insufficient range, bad turn radius due to the upper shell width, etc…

Compared to what’s been available for years, the S18 is nothing but a DIY kit of a wheel, and a lousy off-roader at that.

But these are personal and subjective opinions. Someone might value the looks of the S18 over everything else, which would indeed make it the only choice. For actual riders though…

I did own a V11 and sold it after doing a few trail and commute rides with it.  It was a little torque-stronger than the S18, but bottomed and toped out frequent for curb-shots and more aggressive stuff.  It was also more trustworthy at 25mph+ with any headwind.  So for me S18 was a choice to keep for an all-round backup wheel was a narrow-margine choice. 

So yea, I've owned a V11 and the S22 is hands down better than both S18 and V11.

PS:  I do not require a  speed of 45mph.  I do appreciate some "speed margin" above my top-natural speed.  On my work commute I always exceed 30mph (V11, S18, S22, MSX), and on my MSX and V22 have reached 35 and 39 mph (without sense of any limits other than the wind and the road).  On such "speed wheels" my speed limits are the wind in my eyes (past glasses and/or helmet wind screen) and my perception of power limits vs wind and speed (like a Dewalt leaf blower will cut out when battery gets low.. ride to avoid that limit). 

+1 Regarding S18 mods, mine are extreme.  I removed most of its inner-fender for the K262 dual-use tire.  And later after a battery replacement I decided I liked it naked better than with the side-panels installed.  As far as the shock, I use valve extenders to make it easy to "top-off" though I've not had to mess with it in over 500 miles from the last year's riding it (usually slow with dogs on grass/trails/sidewalks).   

+2 Per your characterization " DIY kit of a wheel, and a lousy off-roader at that", I guess my experience fits that.  Still, pending ready availability of a "suspended speed wheel" the S18 remains the best all-round suspended wheel available.  Sure if your use case is more road-oriented the V11 would be slightly favored over the S18... but add car-transport and again S18... these 2 suspended-wheel products are the best available NOW. 

Edited April 18, 2022 by Elliott Reitz
+1,+2

[RagingGrandpa]

On 4/16/2022 at 1:33 AM, Paul A said:

Is there a specific measurement for usable capacity?  

Yes. 
It is: discharge energy until 3.2V.
A nice summary is below.

For 3A/cell (a moderate, ~1200w discharge rate), the LG cells will give much more range.
For 10A/cell (a severe, ~4000w discharge rate), they're effectively equal.

On 4/16/2022 at 4:40 PM, Paul A said:

The 40T battery is better and safer then?

Only better for racing (which was never the objective for S20).

And we can't say anything concrete about relative safety, yet.
Both cells are the usual, risky, Cobalt-based chemistry.
And the only M50LT pack that has burned thusfar is the NYC S20 demo, which was short-circuit discharged and set its nickel strips ablaze (fire initiated outside the cell). 

I'd prefer mine with 50E's, please...

 

Edited April 18, 2022 by RagingGrandpa

[chanman]

I think this does oversimplify the issue a bit, we don't have constant current demands. We have sharp peaks when we hit bumps (although I wonder how much of this is from a capacitor buffer and how much is drawn from the cells), sustained high draws for several seconds when we accelerate followed by periods of low demands. We also have the potential for large regen currents that the 40Ts can tolerate better. That said, 4kW is definitely above the sustained power of all current wheels, and purely on range I do fully expect the 50E to win even with a very high average load.

The benefits of having a cell that tolerates the larger currents better are significant though. Fortunately it seems like with multiple distributors getting different packs we can have the choice.

 

Edited April 18, 2022 by chanman

[Elliott Reitz]

Comment on battery types:

I've advocated swappable battery packs from the beginning.  If S22 had swapable bat-packs the fire issue would be replaced by battery selection choices vs use cases. 

Considering the bat-pack is often the most expensive component and most rapid technology development/upgrade, being able to swap batteries should be a given.  That its not is analogous to the old oil-conspiracy.  Like Tesla cars can't handle 300 mile trips w/o range-anxiety and 2 hour charging events.  A swap would be analogous to gas stations.  And for EUCs it would be analogous to Dewalt tool batteries. 

For example, If a lighter weight safer bat-pack were available for S22 I would by it.  I would especially buy it if hot-swap were possible (dewalt tool ref again).  Also note that the bat-pack is often the heaviest component (or close).  So having the bat-pack removable would make a 75lbs wheel (like S22) into a 40 lbs wheel with a 2 seperate 17 lbs battery packs it would be a whole lot easier to put in/out the car - especially for a smaller person to do. 

Related article:  E-Bikes With Universal, Swap-n-Go Batteries On The Horizon - ADV Pulse

[UniMe]

My vote is for Husquvara tool batteries lol In all seriousness, I have 1 battery and 3 "pro" quality tools from this maker (chainsaw, hedge trimmer and line trimmer). All three of these tools perform incredibly well, better than their gas or corded equivalent.

1 EUC battery, 3 different wheels (eg. road, trick, dirt), I'd be all over that! Swappable batteries between brands... now that's some seriously disruptive thinking! Whaaat, actual manufacturer accountability?

[Elliott Reitz]

It would also make it easier to put the batteries on a charger inside of a fire-safe.  Rantehr than trying to build fire-safe-barriers around where we charge our wheels and other PEVs.

[Scottie]

4 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

I've advocated swappable battery packs from the beginning.  If S22 had swapable bat-packs the fire issue would be replaced by battery selection choices vs use cases. 

Considering the bat-pack is often the most expensive component and most rapid technology development/upgrade, being able to swap batteries should be a given.  That its not is analogous to the old oil-conspiracy.  Like Tesla cars can't handle 300 mile trips w/o range-anxiety and 2 hour charging events.  A swap would be analogous to gas stations.  And for EUCs it would be analogous to Dewalt tool batteries.

 

2 hours ago, UniMe said:

1 EUC battery, 3 different wheels (eg. road, trick, dirt), I'd be all over that! Swappable batteries between brands... now that's some seriously disruptive thinking!

 

The swappable solid state battery for these classical shaped scooters are already the perfect size (capacity). Now, to tweak the form factor, or redesign an EUC to accept this current shape just above the wheel ... possibly = top-heavy. Anyway, in the not too distant future hopefully.

 

[Elliott Reitz]

24 minutes ago, Scottie said:

 

 

The swappable solid state battery for these classical shaped scooters are already the perfect size (capacity). Now, to tweak the form factor, or redesign an EUC to accept this current shape just above the wheel ... possibly = top-heavy. Anyway, in the not too distant future hopefully.

<vid>

I can imagine a pair front/back.  Any specs on size weight and power of them?  I have a spare S18 carcass that could become interesting. 

+specs,link

From video:  the cells are 9.5 KG (21 lbs) each.  "lunchbox size"

From their site:  Gogoro scooter and battery swap distribution model get smarter and spread to new cities [CEO Video] - Electrek

1.3kWh each, (future? from when written?) 2.6kWh each

From search result: GoCharger® Battery Charger User’s Guide - Gogoro Support

Gogoro® Battery G000001: Number of battery channel: 2: Power Input: Input voltage: 100~240V: Max. input current: GC11 (GoCharger®)：5.5A / 100VAC GC12 (GoCharger® Plus)：10.5A / 100VAC: Max. input power: GC11 (GoCharger®)：525W GC12 (GoCharger® Plus)：1050W: Standby power consumption: 2.0W: Power Output Per Battery channel: Output voltage: 50.3V

Edited April 19, 2022 by Elliott Reitz
+specs,link

[Scottie]

The people looked like they were handling the weight of them easily. I will bet they are lighter than the EUC packs. They are 2.5 kwh ... about the same as the Master at 2400 wh. I did not catch the voltage. A Google search might find that.

If you went with a fwd and aft pack setup, you would have 5000 wh ... record setting!

[Elliott Reitz]

1 minute ago, Scottie said:

The people looked like they were handling the weight of them easily. I will bet they are lighter than the EUC packs. They are 2.5 kwh ... about the same as the Master at 2400 wh. I did not catch the voltage. A Google search might find that.

If you went with a fwd and aft pack setup, you would have 5000 wh ... record setting!

21 lbs/pack.  1.3kWh each (S18 has that), but the packs are only 50V. 

[Elliott Reitz]

I can easy imagine a suspended road-speed wheel built with 4 packs to make it a dual-dual 100V in 2x4 design (run 1 or 2x of 2 packs in series). The 4 packs would make it a 100lbs wheel.  But I don't yet know the suspended current output of these 50v packs.  

+1

Call it a "GoGo Wheel"!

Edited April 19, 2022 by Elliott Reitz
+1

[Forwardnbak]

just saw this on the fbook 

 

[Freeforester]

Just saw this on YT: