Death watch

[Michael Robert Ryan]

How long before the government, especially here in the US, decides we are having way too much fun and decides to ban our wheels, or at least tax and regulate them so onerously that many of us give up?

[mhpr262]

Riding an EUC on public roads is already a full blown felony where I live, with possible prison time. As they are not road legal they cannot be insured, and riding/driving a motor vehicle without insurance is a big no no here.  Soooo ....

But seriously as long as there arent reckless idiots (looking at you NYC riders) who cause some really high profile accident like breaking some kid's legs or killing some granny I doubt politicians will stir themselves anytime soon. Those vehicles are just too niche and too rare and they are bound to remain that way for the foreseeable future.

Edited January 9, 2021 by mhpr262

[GoGeorgeGo]

On 1/9/2021 at 1:07 PM, mhpr262 said:

Riding an EUC on public roads is already a full blown felony where I live, with possible prison time. As they are not road legal they cannot be insured, and riding/driving a motor vehicle without insurance is a big no no here.  Soooo ....

But seriously as long as there arent reckless idiots (looking at you NYC riders) who cause some really high profile accident like breaking some kid's legs or killing some granny I doubt politicians will stir themselves anytime soon. Those vehicles are just too niche and too rare and they are bound to remain that way for the foreseeable future.

Where i live we are only legally allowed to ride them in the street.  The cops kick us off the bike path if they see us but i have never once been pulled over by a cop for riding in the street.  They just wave or else completely ignore us.  

 

At least where i live, i see absolutely no reason to think they will get regulated anytime soon.  Most people don't even know they exist still.  Add in the fact that the dems are pushing hard for green energy spending and these are some of the most green vehicles on earth (pretending that lithium mining has an end game) 

I would be suprised to see any major legal movement on EUCs in the northeast US anytime in the next 3-5 years

[Scottie888]

Where I'm at (central Canada), EUCs are still a very very niche segment. I doubt if the cops know what to do with us even if they wanted to. At best, I'd imagine we'd be in the same category as power assisted bicycles limited to a top end of 32kph.

But one thing for sure is if we ride like the NYC boyz do (as pictured in YT vids), we'd definitely be stopped & likely charged for reckless something or rather even if no accidents, no lives & no global warming🤪 were involved. Everytime I watch vids of PEVs in NYC, I admit I feel envious & sometimes amazed that traffic incidents haven't happened or if they do, doesn't happen more frequently.

Maybe its a NYC thing or even a US thing but up here in Canada, we'd definitely be ratted out by motorists & pedestrians if we ever rode close to what you yanks do. That said, I still think EUCs are too much of niche to be worried about. Ebikes & escoots are much (much much...) more popular here.

[Tawpie]

From a purely EUC perspective, I’d wager we are far far far down the list at the moment.

[Surfling]

On 1/9/2021 at 1:07 PM, mhpr262 said:

reckless idiots (looking at you NYC riders)

     ....here bud, just to ease the blow. All over in the summer, no joke.

 

 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Surfling
additional text

[.....]

Laws on the books could happen at any time, but I think the USA has more things keeping them busy atm. Federal laws are unlikely, until Euc's become popular enough to warrant it. Its all about the money, and there's just not much to be had atm for the feds. Local laws could come at any time, but having a law and having the give a shit or resources to enforce them, is different. It seems that a LOT of euc riders are blatantly ignoring already in place law as is, so does it really matter? Stop signs and traffic lights in particular. In most rural places I've ever been, the cops have far more important things to do, than harass even a bicyclist for failiing to adhere to the current laws on those. I would suspect that most municipalities already have laws that could be viewed as euc applicable. You know, the thing with top speed and registering highway use vehicles etc. .  Laws get interpreted to meet the needs of the wallet. As for giving up... it'll be a long time and itll more likely be injury, initiative or physical ability that stops me. Perhaps monetarily even.  Legalities are nearer the top of my 'don't give a shit' list.

If i HAD to make a wager, I would say that euc regs in larger cities are already happening, or will happen in the next 3 years. This latest generation of highway capable eucs is going to push their hand eventually. People will die as they always do with everything, and with how the media is able to persuade  to suit an agenda, there will be no shortage of excuses for the masses to lump us in with cars/motorcycles. We are already exceeding moped power and speeds. I'd imagine we will be able to get away with eucs in rural areas, for decades. Hell, we still see all kinds of dangerous shit going on. Even when its worth a ticket, enforcement is lacking, as we're all neighbors here. Of course if there's money involved via damages or injuries....

Its always ALL about money and power. The real question is... when will it be profitable for the laws to come down on euc's? I guess we could speed up the inevitable, by promoting the sport and when the dice roll comes, we just hope it comes in our favor..   Just chase the $$ and youll know how its gna go.

Edited January 12, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[.....]

34 minutes ago, Surfling said:

     ....here bud, just to ease the blow. All over in the summer, no joke.

 

 

I just never did undertand the audacity of this kind of thing. Don't get me wrong, its fun and being a hoodlum is most epic. It just amazes me that leo doesnt come in with a hammer. I was always under the impression that a criminal shouldnt be so bold? Oddly, it seems that the less people can hide, the less they try. Very selfish to acquire public roads in such fashion. Fun as hell tho! More proof that laws and enforcement aren't directly linked.

Edited January 12, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[LanghamP]

11 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I just never did undertand the audacity of this kind of thing. Don't get me wrong, its fun and being a hoodlum is most epic. It just amazes me that leo doesnt come in with a hammer. I was always under the impression that a criminal shouldnt be so bold? Oddly, it seems that the less people can hide, the less they try. Very selfish to acquire public roads in such fashion. Fun as hell tho! More proof that laws and enforcement aren't directly linked.

It depends on how you view public spaces that are supported mostly by a local sales tax. NYC (along with St Louis and other cities), has these huge public spaces devoted to mostly car storage and car transportation for non local people. NYC has even repurposed its many parks to automobile storage circa 1950's, while approximately halving its own sidewalks to make more space for automobile storage.

There's always been an underlying hostility from a local population towards outside automobile drivers who come here and then use all the public space for their own usage.

[GothamMike]

On 1/9/2021 at 1:07 PM, mhpr262 said:

Riding an EUC on public roads is already a full blown felony where I live, with possible prison time. As they are not road legal they cannot be insured, and riding/driving a motor vehicle without insurance is a big no no here.  Soooo ....

But seriously as long as there arent reckless idiots (looking at you NYC riders) who cause some really high profile accident like breaking some kid's legs or killing some granny I doubt politicians will stir themselves anytime soon. Those vehicles are just too niche and too rare and they are bound to remain that way for the foreseeable future.

I’ve personally seen NYC riders go riding on automobile parkways ( highways for Cars only) and seriously hurt themselves. They have inherited the skateboard culture and taken it to a higher level. No apologies. No concern about what they do. Coolness is more important than their safety and acceptance by society.

[null]

You are probably referring to the video where NY Tarzan crashes after a triple giant pothole.
How we see things differently. To me the most dangerous elements in that scene are the cars and the potholes.

Edited January 13, 2021 by null

[Bumblebees]

Definitely the potholes at night.. 

[Simply_Striking]

I would go off on a limb and say, as long as EUC riders keep hurting themselves more than they hurt others we will not see any major law changes in the US.

[.....]

On 1/12/2021 at 11:06 AM, LanghamP said:

It depends on how you view public spaces that are supported mostly by a local sales tax. NYC (along with St Louis and other cities), has these huge public spaces devoted to mostly car storage and car transportation for non local people. NYC has even repurposed its many parks to automobile storage circa 1950's, while approximately halving its own sidewalks to make more space for automobile storage.

There's always been an underlying hostility from a local population towards outside automobile drivers who come here and then use all the public space for their own usage.

I didnt even think of it from that angle. I am more aiming at the fact that the cities and public pay for use of raodays for travel. They all kind of have to try and share it and laws are in place to keep it as ordely and safe as possible. Well, and to make money and control things. When groups of bandits take over the streets and violate traffic laws, its in effect, stealing from the very people who are paying to have those places maintained and organized. A lot of places build public parks and tracks and other things. You wont see cars parked all over the skate parks, as it was decided they are funded for skateboards. Im not a cop and I dont really care, as i havent been stuck ni traffic from this kind of activity. Hell, people do this shit all the time and its fun. Im just shocked that people do this with such boldness that they even record themselves breaking laws.

The entire debate about who gets to use what and out of towners and praking and all that, is entirely over my head, to be honest. I have zero knowledge of how those overcrowded death trap cities work.  I just know that if yuo take a dirtbike to main street in our nearby town, and commence to doing doughnuts in the intersection, you will be stopped, fined and your bike may be impounded. God forbid your actions delay the travel of the judge or his wife!

Edited January 14, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[null]

20 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

When groups of bandits take over the streets and violate traffic laws, its in effect, stealing from the very people who are paying to have those places maintained and organized.

To me the group of bandits are the cars, taking way more space than they pay for, being dangerous, noisy and polluting, while I pay the same taxes to have those places maintained and only get a lousy bike strip here and there. The cars are stealing both city surface and quality of life from the people who live there. For ref in Paris only 15% of the people own a car, while they eat up most of the public space and account for deadly traffic accidents and other nuisances. Screw them.

edit: as for violating traffic laws, 1- the law is unfair as to cars right of way, 2- cars violate traffic laws all the time.

Edited January 14, 2021 by null

[.....]

29 minutes ago, null said:

To me the group of bandits are the cars, taking way more space than they pay for, being dangerous, noisy and polluting, while I pay the same taxes to have those places maintained and only get a lousy bike strip here and there. The cars are stealing both city surface and quality of life from the people who live there. For ref in Paris only 15% of the people own a car, while they eat up most of the public space and account for deadly traffic accidents and other nuisances. Screw them.

edit: as for violating traffic laws, 1- the law is unfair as to cars right of way, 2- cars violate traffic laws all the time.

Its not stealing when the funding is designed for their use. I agree that cars are a bit excessive. Here in the usa, its 1 person per suv and they treat it like a phone booth. However, the majority of  city streets and roadways are designed for registered passenger cars. Maybe there should be more bike paths (wtf are those?), maybe there should be less multi-lane highways. FIrst there has to be less drivers. Its not an opinion that modern roads are designed for and legally inteded for cars. Cars, bike, 4 wheeler, euc, doesnt matter as when roads are being aggressively taken over, its still simple irradic lane changes, displays of speed, wreckless endangerment... blah blah blah.

1) unfair has nothing to do with legal or not when it comes to violating traffic law

2) but johnny does it too... is not a valid defense nor does it mitigate the violations of others. We learned this in 4th grade at my school.

I am definitely not a cop and have no horse in the race of what laws are fair or unfair. I merely find it interesting that people are violating current laws so visibly, as they somehow think that if the law is 'unfair', it doesnt apply. Forgive me, I grew up in a house with a drunken lawyer. Not much a father, but between him and my own checkered past, I'm fairly versed in being punished for things that were unfair. Oddly enough, some of those things are now considered acceptable. If 'unfair' and if my 'opinion' had anything to do with law, I'm owed at least 2 yrs of my youth

Edited January 14, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Scottie888]

IMO its not about fairness or even what's better as what's better or fair or right depends on your perspective. Everyone goes to their own corner & sees things through their own lens. So understandably through biased lens with biased interests, there can hardly be agreement on all sides.

Fact is that in the 20th century, autos came first & is an established mode of universal transportation. Perhaps more important, the government & its ruling class uses combustion based transports so that mode will always have priority over the new electrics. Even if electrics becomes vogue, it will still likely be automotive type electrics rather than PEVs.

Arguments of everyone pays taxes & hence it should be for all is a moot argument. The only perspective that counts are our ruling class. Until & unless they get on to the PEV bandwagon, nothing will change. Or until & unless there's another french (or rather, electric) revolution. IMO ofcos

[xiiijojjo]

Many of us already live in countries where eucs are illegal. It's not a problem really if you drive responsibly as to not provoke cops... Or ride fast enough to escape them 

Edited January 14, 2021 by xiiijojjo

[LanghamP]

2 hours ago, Scottie888 said:

Fact is that in the 20th century, autos came first & is an established mode of universal transportation.

Bicycles came before autos. It was bicyclists in the 1890's that advocated for paved roads and streets...the paved surface being a necessary requirement to autos.

https://www.vox.com/2015/3/19/8253035/roads-cyclists-cars-history

[LanghamP]

 

4 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I am more aiming at the fact that the cities and public pay for use of raodays for travel.

Urban sales taxes pay for the majority of all roads built and maintained, with vehicle and property taxes coming in a second. Sales taxes and income taxes together pay for the majority of road expenditures, but this wasn't true years ago when gas taxes were higher.

Cities are revenue generators because they put a lot of people in an area that doesn't require much infrastructure. It costs the same to build a mile of road regardless of where you are (and urban roads are considerably cheaper because their maintenance is lower when the speed of vehicles is less). 

https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2020/1/27/how-much-does-a-mile-of-road-actually-cost

Being dumped with a $5000 per year road bill for your suburban house is about the right costs. And interestingly it's a tactic more suburbs are taking.

https://m.startribune.com/in-st-paul-massive-street-repair-bills-rile-homeowners/509618052/

Amusingly, if you read that article carefully, these homeowners were only billed 50% of their road repair costs; the difference, by the way, is made up by sales tax on people regardless of whether they own a car or how much they make.

Then there's also the health effects that drivers have. Like a badly trained puppy that poops where it pleases wherever it goes, drivers pollute wherever they go, usually on the populace that is least likely to also own a car (ie pedestrians and bicyclists). Who pay a sales tax for those roads.

Finally, there's the nuclear bomb effect of building interstate highways through expensive downtown areas. Suppose someone built a highway 20 feet away from your house, and then offered to buy your property bases upon what houses were worth when 20 feet from a highway. This was the situation faced by urban areas in the 1950's and beyond, as valuable urban property became worthless.

 

 

 

 

 

[Michael Robert Ryan]

On 1/13/2021 at 9:44 AM, GothamMike said:

I’ve personally seen NYC riders go riding on automobile parkways ( highways for Cars only) and seriously hurt themselves. They have inherited the skateboard culture and taken it to a higher level. No apologies. No concern about what they do. Coolness is more important than their safety and acceptance by society.

As if riding an riding an euc, in and of itself, isn't cool enough. Fucking idiots.

[null]

22 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

2) but johnny does it too... is not a valid defense nor does it mitigate the violations of others. We learned this in 4th grade at my school.

I am mostly underlining the double standard between cars and PEVs. Here we have a bunch of guys outraged over a few cases of tiny vehicules taking 3% of the width of a highway, when cars are constantly parking on bike lanes, taking 200% of the width of the lane, and nobody cares, cops included.

So PEVs on a highway; cry me a river.

Edited January 15, 2021 by null

[null]

22 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Its not stealing when the funding is designed for their use.

Plenty of ways to steal legally, you just need to have power on your side. There is no reason that space should be reserved to a few, it is misplaced public funding and law making by people who serve themselves. (« All legal of course » - doesn’t make it right.)

I’m not advocating civil disobedience, simply I find it laughable to make a fuss of this considering the situation at a larger scale.

Edited January 15, 2021 by null

[.....]

1 hour ago, null said:

Plenty of ways to steal legally, you just need to have power on your side. There is no reason that space should be reserved to a few, it is misplaced public funding and law making by people who serve themselves. (« All legal of course » - doesn’t make it right.)

I’m not advocating civil disobedience, simply I find it laughable to make a fuss of this considering the situation at a larger scale.

A can of worms is opening. We do live in different countries, so perhaps we see it a little differently. Im in usa and in a part that is ALL cars and I honestly am not angry about it. I am impressed with the highways in some states and I spent a lot of my life, using those roads and enjoying them in many fashion. Bike lanes, paths, even sidewalks are not common in most places and towns i've lived. I wont try to understand taxes and how its divied out. I mean hell, too many variables. I should get a tax break for not having kids that eat up public resources. I dont have dogs to walk in a park, I weigh very little. I have used the public library. The point im trying to illustrate, is: I can't and won't get into a discussion about how the structure of it all works and how it should. All i know is that the roads and highways here are primarily for motorized vehicles. There are many laws concerning proper use of them. If you violate these laws... why in the HELL are you doing it in groups and on video? Wether or not laws in USA come crashing down on euc's is all about the $$. In USA, we have so many different cultures by state, I don't fathom the laws and regs will ever be the same for different areas. I'm sure NYC has a totally different clusterfuk than rural TN/NC. Hell, lane splitting in tn/nc is completely illegal, as is operating unregistered "motorized vehicles" on city streets. For now, the euc is grey area of 'motorized vehicle", so we get to kinda glide on by....for now. We already do have laws prohibiting eucs on interstates, and thats a federal level policy. At any rate, its not the small regs we need worry about, those will come. Its the enforcement thats the issue. OBVIOUSLY enforcement of laws varies wildly. Outside looking in, it seems like bigger cities in USA have laws but no police.

Edited January 15, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[LanghamP]

14 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

A can of worms is opening. We do live in different countries, so perhaps we see it a little differently. Im in usa and in a part that is ALL cars and I honestly am not angry about it. I am impressed with the highways in some states and I spent a lot of my life, using those roads and enjoying them in many fashion. Bike lanes, paths, even sidewalks are not common in most places and towns i've lived. I wont try to understand taxes and how its divied out. I mean hell, too many variables. I should get a tax break for not having kids that eat up public resources. I dont have dogs to walk in a park, I weigh very little. I have used the public library. The point im trying to illustrate, is: I can't and won't get into a discussion about how the structure of it all works and how it should. All i know is that the roads and highways here are primarily for motorized vehicles. There are many laws concerning proper use of them. If you violate these laws... why in the HELL are you doing it in groups and on video? Wether or not laws in USA come crashing down on euc's is all about the $$. In USA, we have so many different cultures by state, I don't fathom the laws and regs will ever be the same for different areas. I'm sure NYC has a totally different clusterfuk than rural TN/NC. Hell, lane splitting in tn/nc is completely illegal, as is operating unregistered "motorized vehicles" on city streets. For now, the euc is grey area of 'motorized vehicle", so we get to kinda glide on by....for now. We already do have laws prohibiting eucs on interstates, and thats a federal level policy. At any rate, its not the small regs we need worry about, those will come. Its the enforcement thats the issue. OBVIOUSLY enforcement of laws varies wildly. Outside looking in, it seems like bigger cities in USA have laws but no police.

Massive transportation structures are incompatible with life on earth, and so costly that they are funded mostly by debt.