Best Winter Wheel

[winterwheel]

Simple question, what is the best (unmodified) wheel for casual winter riding? By that I mean basically any day that doesn't have more than 2cm  of fresh snow. 

For me the answer used to be the ACM2, but... is now the 18XL. I still use the ACM2, but only on snow days since I have a (sort of) snow tire on it. The ACM2 with the winter tire is a killer combination for heavy snow days though.

But today there was level nine ice for out there for about 3km and it the XL handled it without even making me nervous. The ACM2 could handle it too, but I felt I had to be a little more focused on not slipping. The XL though, on that long stretch of pure, hard ice, let me cruise past a bike with studded tires like he was standing still. We have a second guy here who did a 22km run yesterday in much the same conditions and had the same result. I think the bigger tire and the narrower stance are better suited for extreme ice.

I did a run with the V8 last winter and it was fine too, but I think it's a bit light for handling the rough stuff; heavier wheels work harder to keep moving forward and are less likely to be deflected by bumpy terrain.

I haven't tried any other heavy wheels such as the MSX or the newer 16x and Nicola, it'd be awesome to get some feedback on those wheels.

[Darrell Wesh]

Z10 for fresh snow.

low psi and it just floats overtop the snow without sinking in. 
 

Narrow tires for old hard snow. 

[winterwheel]

 

6 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Z10 for fresh snow.

low psi and it just floats overtop the snow without sinking in. 

I'd love to give  that a try, nobody around here has a Z10 unfortunately, which is probably I forgot to make it an option.

[mike_bike_kite]

 level nine ice? 

[winterwheel]

The conditions yesterday and again today were that the bike lane had been cleared down to the pavement, and then a 1cm thick sheet of ice layered on top of that from one end to the other. Nice and cold (-16c) so there is no softness to it. The only place to find solid ground was at intersections (where cars have cross). Not level ten though because it was a bit bumpy with bikes having ridden it before the ice was completely set. That little bit of unevenness to it makes it easier to ride.

I have come to think of it as an ice-proving ground for my wheels.

 

[Espen R]

We had our first snowfall since early December last night, so today I couldn’t wait to get out and ride. Cold dry snow is so nice, lots of friction, but I had to slow down a bit where it had started to get polished. This winter has been the warmest since they started measuring temperature, so I have to use my experiences from last winter to vote for my favourite. The balance and stability of the KS-18XL gives me confidence to ride in almost all the different winter conditions we get here in Sweden. If anyone has found a winter tyre for the 18XL that could take screw-in spikes (6 mm into the tyre), please let me know. With spikes I could ride even in the water on ice conditions we usually get fairly often here.

Between my other wheels, the KS-16S and Inmotion V10F, it is close, but lower pedal height is a huge plus in some conditions, so the KS-16S gets the number 2 spot.

Edited February 4, 2020 by Espen R

[mike_bike_kite]

8 minutes ago, Espen R said:

This winter has been the warmest since they started measuring temperature

Same here in the UK. I've actually been playing tennis in a T-shirt some days in January - never been able to do that before.

Out of curiosity, do Americans in general still deny global warming?

[winterwheel]

uh-oh

[ZenRyder]

24 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Out of curiosity, do Americans in general still deny global warming?

I don't think anyone seriously denies it. The matter of the best solution and who's going to foot the bill seems to be the biggest problem which needs solving. So, until somebody comes up with a solution, enjoy the unusually balmy February London weather. 

Until the rising sea levels cover the UK.  jk

[winterwheel]

5 minutes ago, ZenRyder said:

So, until somebody comes up with a solution,

The solution is massive adoption of electric unicycles. 

[Elliott Reitz]

I have an MSX with a 2.50-14" knobby.  Having tried an SR244 that had a larger diameter than stock I can say that traction and torque really matter, especially in snow and varying terrain softness's.  With the larger diameter tire, the MSX lacked adequate torque.  But with an 18.75" diameter (1/4" smaller than stock), its OK.  However, I've wished for more torque from the MSX ever since I got it, especially since my old e+ has a more torque'ey feel.  I hear the MSX-Pro has more torque.  So expanding to generic wheels...

What matters most for winter (snow, mud, wet, dry mix) are:

1.  Torque and "command authority". 

  -   How?  Toe-length of pedals, power-pads, and the raw wheel-torque (includes tire diameter). 

  -  Why?  going from hard-surface to soft-surface is common in winter... like from sidewalk to the muddy snow-covered grass

2. Wheel Traction

 - How?  Get a knobby.  If you have frequent ice add studs. 

 - Why?  Once a wheel starts spinning its a crap-shoot if it gets more/less friction/traction.

3. Foot traction

 - How?  studs or holes in the foot plates

- Why?  Snow quickly fills in grit of the foot plates. 

[winterwheel]

29 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

1.  Torque and "command authority". 

  -   How?  Toe-length of pedals, power-pads, and the raw wheel-torque (includes tire diameter). 

  -  Why?  going from hard-surface to soft-surface is common in winter... like from sidewalk to the muddy snow-covered grass

2. Wheel Traction

 - How?  Get a knobby.  If you have frequent ice add studs. 

 - Why?  Once a wheel starts spinning its a crap-shoot if it gets more/less friction/traction.

3. Foot traction

 - How?  studs or holes in the foot plates

- Why?  Snow quickly fills in grit of the foot plates. 

We've found that better traction on a big wheel is only really needed it if you are going to be riding in deep snow (or on ice under a layer of water we've now learned). The rest of the time the tire holds up pretty well.

I wear studs on my shoes all winter long; they provide an awesome grip on the pedals and on ice when I am mounting or dismounting. Before I did that I would gracefully cruise into a stop, then quite ungracefully fall over when I dismounted onto the ice, my shoes/boots finding no purchase on the slippery surface. Yes, the studs gradually grind the grit () off the pedal surface, but that's a minor quibble. That grit doesn't really provide any value to me these days anyway.

[winterwheel]

I wonder sometimes if MSX needs a little more help with grip because of the pedal angle. Both my proven winter wheels have much flatter pedals by comparison.

[chroma]

On 2/4/2020 at 9:32 AM, mike_bike_kite said:

Same here in the UK. I've actually been playing tennis in a T-shirt some days in January - never been able to do that before.

Out of curiosity, do Americans in general still deny global warming?

not in CA- I couldn't tell you about the other states

[chroma]

we don't have snow here -but the beaches can get very windy- KS18l great for gusty conditions

[vasuvius]

On 2/4/2020 at 12:32 PM, mike_bike_kite said:

Out of curiosity, do Americans in general still deny global warming?

yes, just busy thanking you know who for a warm winter and lower heating costs

Edited February 6, 2020 by vasuvius
typo

[mrelwood]

While riding on snow can be manageable without studs, I must say that when the ground is even slightly slippery, studs will improve the ride quality by a hundred fold. I got to try a studded 16X, and going back to a MSX with a knobby was a huge letdown. Ordered studs right away.

The winter in Finland has been almost free of snow, so I still haven’t tried to ride in thicker snow than a few cm. But the studs make all levels of ice and thin snow grippy enough that the ride is nearly as stress free and relaxing as a regular summer ride. I constantly ride at 40km/h over snowy and even icy patches that used to require jogging speeds without the studs. The difference really is that huge.

[winterwheel]

I'm riding much faster than bikes with studded tires in all icy conditions with just the stock tire on the XL, so I really don't need to go any faster. This is true for both of us winter riders here, we had another guy (not on this forum) go for a 22km fun ride on an ice day last weekend. The only time we have to really slow down is if I come upon a patch of really deep, loose, sandy snow. 

So the case I am making is that, out of the box, our devices are at least as good as bicycles for getting around in the winter, and most days much better. There are rare days when bikes are better, but on most difficult days I'm blowing by the few bikes that are out there with me.  This is not to try and switch bike riders over, but so that people who wouldn't ride bikes in the winter have another, possibly better, option.

I keep harping on this not to be argumentative, but because I don't want people to think they *have* to do tricky and/or time-consuming mods to their wheels to enjoy winter riding.

That said, if I could put factory studded tires on these wheels I'd be all over it, I'd love to try a Kenda Klondike Wide or Marathon Ice Spiker Pro HS just to see how they perform, but they don't seem to be making those in the sizes we need yet.

 

Edited February 6, 2020 by winterwheel

[Espen R]

25 minutes ago, winterwheel said:

I'm riding much faster than bikes with studded tires in all icy conditions with just the stock tire on the XL, so I really don't need to go any faster. This is true for both of us winter riders here, we had another guy (not on this forum) go for a 22km fun ride on an ice day last weekend. The only time we have to really slow down is if I come upon a patch of really deep, loose, sandy snow. 

So the case I am making is that, out of the box, our devices are at least as good as bicycles for getting around in the winter, and most days much better. There are rare days when bikes are better, but on most difficult days I'm blowing by the few bikes that are out there with me.  This is not to try and switch bike riders over, but so that people who wouldn't ride bikes in the winter have another, possibly better, option.

I keep harping on this not to be argumentative, but because I don't want people to think they *have* to do tricky and/or time-consuming mods to their wheels to enjoy winter riding.

That said, if I could put factory studded tires on these wheels I'd be all over it, I'd love to try a Kenda Klondike Wide or Marathon Ice Spiker Pro HS just to see how they perform, but they don't seem to be making those in the sizes we need yet.

 

This also might be because of climatic differences. I know the waxers on the Norwegian cross-country ski team describe the snow and ice conditions in north America as something completely different to Scandinavia and northern Europe. I think they said the snow in Calgary was much drier than here, but I'm not sure I remember that correctly. Anyways, there are many different snow and ice conditions here that are impossible to ride at anything above jogging pace, there is just not enough friction for the tire to grab onto, and there are some conditions that are impossible to ride on, like water on ice.

I understand you point, the stock tire is excellent for most conditions, but you can’t expect to ride everyday through winter without studs here in Scandinavia. You can ride to work in -15c with the same relaxed confidence as on dry summer roads, but on you way back home there might be +7c and rain, and you can’t even walk. When it’s been cold and warm many times, the ice sole on the pavement and bike lanes can be so hard that the sand or gravel they use to strew with wont attach to the ice, it’s like walking on marbles.   

[winterwheel]

4 hours ago, Espen R said:

This also might be because of climatic differences. I know the waxers on the Norwegian cross-country ski team describe the snow and ice conditions in north America as something completely different to Scandinavia and northern Europe. I think they said the snow in Calgary was much drier than here, but I'm not sure I remember that correctly. Anyways, there are many different snow and ice conditions here that are impossible to ride at anything above jogging pace, there is just not enough friction for the tire to grab onto, and there are some conditions that are impossible to ride on, like water on ice.

I understand you point, the stock tire is excellent for most conditions, but you can’t expect to ride everyday through winter without studs here in Scandinavia. You can ride to work in -15c with the same relaxed confidence as on dry summer roads, but on you way back home there might be +7c and rain, and you can’t even walk. When it’s been cold and warm many times, the ice sole on the pavement and bike lanes can be so hard that the sand or gravel they use to strew with wont attach to the ice, it’s like walking on marbles.   

Interesting. Assuming dryness correlates to to humidity our snow in Edmonton would be about as dry as dry can be, as we have the second-lowest humidity in the country, after Calgary. 

[winterwheel]

I switch my vote to ACM2, even thought it is my secondary winter wheel these days, just to give it a bit of love. 

Edited February 6, 2020 by winterwheel

[Elliott Reitz]

On 2/5/2020 at 5:14 PM, winterwheel said:

We've found that better traction on a big wheel is only really needed it if you are going to be riding in deep snow (or on ice under a layer of water we've now learned). The rest of the time the tire holds up pretty well.

I wear studs on my shoes all winter long; they provide an awesome grip on the pedals and on ice when I am mounting or dismounting. Before I did that I would gracefully cruise into a stop, then quite ungracefully fall over when I dismounted onto the ice, my shoes/boots finding no purchase on the slippery surface. Yes, the studs gradually grind the grit () off the pedal surface, but that's a minor quibble. That grit doesn't really provide any value to me these days anyway.

I ride daily in Syracuse NY with my dog, a Siberian Husky.  He loves the snow!  There's only been 1 day this year when I thought studs would have helped.  As it turned out, riding slower and more carefully I did fine that day without the click-noise I'd have had if I put them on (I actually did buy them).

On 2/5/2020 at 5:15 PM, winterwheel said:

I wonder sometimes if MSX needs a little more help with grip because of the pedal angle. Both my proven winter wheels have much flatter pedals by comparison.

I love the pedal angle.  But I wonder how small the pe##.. foot size of Asian males are.   I wear size 10 or 11 but my toes hang over and it limits command authority.  Customized the pedals on my e+.  Nikola pedals on the MSX but even that... contemplating another pedal mod.

On 2/5/2020 at 8:59 PM, chroma said:

not in CA- I couldn't tell you about the other states

Global warming/cooling is mostly caused by the sun.  CO2 is a result, not a cause and it happens to be the food source for life on earth.  Of course globalists want to tax life itself... to enslave the world.  (think theme song pinky and the brain)

PS:  From the world's snowiest city (Syracuse), its pretty normal here http://goldensnowglobe.com/current-top-10-snowiest-cities/

On 2/6/2020 at 9:00 AM, winterwheel said:

I'm riding much faster than bikes with studded tires in all icy conditions with just the stock tire on the XL, so I really don't need to go any faster. ...

After my 2nd winter, this time on an MSX with a knobby tire... the hardest stuff is the snow-piles at intersections and sidewalks.  Going from hard-surface to ultra-soft/slipery/both... to some extent can choose entry speed to 'jump' or momentum over the slushy icy paivement.... SO...

Power-pads, heel-squeeze, and pedal-mods = 2nd mod to augment the tire.

On 2/6/2020 at 10:05 AM, Espen R said:

This also might be because of climatic differences. I know the waxers on the Norwegian cross-country ski team describe the snow and ice conditions in north America as something completely different to Scandinavia and northern Europe. I think they said the snow in Calgary was much drier than here, but I'm not sure I remember that correctly. Anyways, there are many different snow and ice conditions here that are impossible to ride at anything above jogging pace, there is just not enough friction for the tire to grab onto, and there are some conditions that are impossible to ride on, like water on ice.

I understand you point, the stock tire is excellent for most conditions, but you can’t expect to ride everyday through winter without studs here in Scandinavia. You can ride to work in -15c with the same relaxed confidence as on dry summer roads, but on you way back home there might be +7c and rain, and you can’t even walk. When it’s been cold and warm many times, the ice sole on the pavement and bike lanes can be so hard that the sand or gravel they use to strew with wont attach to the ice, it’s like walking on marbles.  

North of here in Montreal, the average temperature is 20 F colder than here.  The snow there is much finer and ices the surfaces much more.  So yes, there studs would be more important.  Here its a knobby.  South of Binghamton (NYC included), stock tires are probably the best except for off-road with mud.

[EUCboi]

Inmotion V8

[winterwheel]

5 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

There's only been 1 day this year when I thought studs would have helped.  As it turned out, riding slower and more carefully I did fine that day without the click-noise I'd have had if I put them on (I actually did buy them).

Paying attention is the key. I don't go down often, but on those occasions that I do it is because I was distracted by traffic, a pedestrian, looking for friends up ahead etc., and not realizing that I had ventured onto ice until too late to recover.

[mike_bike_kite]

12 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

Global warming/cooling is mostly caused by the sun.  CO2 is a result, not a cause and it happens to be the food source for life on earth.  Of course globalists want to tax life itself... to enslave the world.  (think theme song pinky and the brain)

I'm not sure how accurate the information you get is from pinky and the brain. Solar output hasn't changed much and, if anything, is at a low at the moment. NASA explains it fairly well here:

' One of the “smoking guns” that tells us the Sun is not causing global warming comes from looking at the amount of the Sun’s energy that hits the top of the atmosphere. Since 1978, scientists have been tracking this using sensors on satellites and what they tell us is that there has been no upward trend in the amount of the Sun’s energy reaching Earth.

A second smoking gun is that if the Sun were responsible for global warming, we would expect to see warming throughout all layers of the atmosphere, from the surface all the way up to the upper atmosphere (stratosphere). But what we actually see is warming at the surface and cooling in the stratosphere. This is consistent with the warming being caused by a build-up of heat-trapping gases near the surface of the Earth, and not by the Sun getting “hotter.” '

I know it's hard to believe climate change when you live in a city surrounded by snow but I I have a small place in France near the foot of one of the largest glaciers in the Alps. It's currently retreating by 40 meters back up the valley each year. It's mildly amusing reading what you write but sadly the reality is in front of me.