The Deadly Cut Out Discussion

[ir_fuel]

1 minute ago, Rywokast said:

im just saying its not the wheel cutting out on you BECAUSE you overleaned and it couldnt keep up, its simply you leaning right off

Semantics.

The result is the same:

Lots of pain  

[Rywokast]

2 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

Semantics.

The result is the same:

Lots of pain  

indeed, but then we need not have a discussion about wheel safety and preventing cut outs.. we need to have a discussion on expectations and experience  but yes i can imagine there is lots of pain involved, thankfully, not from personal experience

[AtlasP]

1 hour ago, Rywokast said:

we are in agreement lol.. this is exactly what im saying.. you personally can easily overlean and faceplant, no problem whatsoever.. im just saying its not the wheel cutting out on you BECAUSE you overleaned and it couldnt keep up, its simply you leaning right off 

Oh I see, then this becomes just a matter of semantics. In such a case it's NOT a "cut out", but I would consider it "overpowering" the wheel in a sense (your lean/pedal pressure exerted/demanded more power/responsiveness than the wheel could match). Either way I could see how this distinction would be lost on a newer rider--from their perspective they leaned forward and the wheel seemed to just suddenly stop supporting them (but because they leaned/fell off the front of it).

Edited July 26, 2019 by AtlasP

[Rywokast]

12 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

Oh I see, then this becomes just a matter of semantics. In such a case it's NOT a "cut out", but I could see how this distinction could be lost on a newer rider--from their perspective they leaned forward and the wheel seemed to just suddenly stop supporting them (but because they leaned/fell off the front of it).

yup exactly.. to them they see no difference.. of course they will think the wheel cut out because they will fly off, the wheel will go flying and shut itself off because thats what its programmed to do in the absence of a rider whilst tumbling down the street, and the rider will be none the wiser.. but i just like to make it clear that its not a safety issue and its not anywhere near as easy to truly overlean a modern 18" wheel as some would seem to think.. just look at the logs, you are probably nowhere near the capacity that the wheel is capable of unless youre like 300 lbs and pushing it hard, and then thats just to the safety tiltback lol.. to push beyond that on a full battery and truly cut out a wheel would basically need to be completely intentional from a very experienced rider.. looking at logs for me a power spike is like 1200 W... average <400.. these wheels are capable of maintaining 2000W continuously and handling a spike of 4000W+ (i have heard 6k on some wheels, but its legitimacy is in question as it wouldnt be possible for any average person to even get remotely close) without issue.. im a light rider for sure, but im not even physically capable of coming anywhere close to even the continuous power rating, nowhere near it.. for me to spike it enough to cause a cutout you would literally need to strap a rocket to my back.. someone heavier theirs will be higher of course but in order to this easily cause it to actually cut out youre talking like a 400 lb rider lmao

Edited July 26, 2019 by Rywokast

[Marty Backe]

49 minutes ago, Captain Ahab said:

It's exactly because ok Kuji Rolls side by side tests of gunning the 18xl and msx  that's making me think something could be awry here. I mean he flung himself into the wheel and nothing happened.

I guarantee you that Kuji weighs a lot less than 180-pounds. Just sayin.

[esaj]

For a light-weight rider, the high power can actually be a bit of a problem, not having the body weight to throw around, getting the wheel to respond (especially if its on hard-mode) in an uphill for example can become problematic, as the high power can easily overcome trying to push the fronts of the pedals down and the wheel tends to stay level, not getting enough "feedback" to push up the speed. Then you either need to stand tip-toed on the pedals or try to grab it with your legs and force it to lean forwards. Some people have 3d-printed parts glued to the side they can grab with their legs to get the wheel to tilt forwards and force it to accelerate. I changed my wheel from hard to middle because of this, made accelerating uphills a lot easier and I noticed I like the slight "give" during strong braking.

Edited July 26, 2019 by esaj

[Rywokast]

14 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I guarantee you that Kuji weighs a lot less than 180-pounds. Just sayin.

not a lot, 170 according to him.. riding weight probably 180, shouldnt matter much either way thats way below the recommended max of 325.. but still we all know people above the max recommended weight ride underpowered wheels all the time

[Rywokast]

1 minute ago, esaj said:

For a light-weight rider, the high power can actually be a bit of a problem, not having the body weight to throw around, getting the wheel to respond (especially if its on hard-mode) in an uphill for example can become problematic, as the high power can easily overcome trying to push the fronts of the pedals down and the wheel tends to stay level, not getting enough "feedback" to push up the speed. Then you either need to stand tip-toed on the pedals or try to grab it with your legs and force it to lean forwards. Some people have 3d-printed parts glued to the side they can grab with their legs to get the wheel to tilt forwards and force it to accelerate. I changed my wheel from hard to middle because of this, made accelerating uphills a lot easier and I noticed I like the slight "give" during strong braking.

i know this all too well.. when i attempted a small hill in a parking lot of a mall, im talking like less than 100 ft to the top level i can race up it in three seconds on any other wheel, when i attempted it for the first time on the 18XL i had to get off lmao, the 18XL is very flat on the sides so literally everything is coming from your feet, and i didnt even have the large pedals on it just standard KS ones, wouldnt budge lmao.. after the first time i tried it again with a lot more speed initially, i made it but not without great difficulty the wheel nearly is half my weight and with small pedals and no pads, convincing it to move is a serious workout haha

[meepmeepmayer]

Don't just assume the wheel is ok and hope for the best

[Rywokast]

2 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Don't just assume the wheel is ok and hope for the best

it could be faulty.. never know.. get someone experienced to pad up and ride it hard and you will know for sure xD

[meepmeepmayer]

I'd still ask the seller at the very least. I recall something like this , not sure what wheel it was though and what the error was. But it was a definitive error (board or battery or something). But the seller will know best what to do in such cases and if this has happened before.

Edited July 26, 2019 by meepmeepmayer

[Rywokast]

6 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I'd still ask the seller at the very least. I recall something like this , not sure what wheel it was though and what the error was. But it was a definitive error (board or battery or something). But the seller will know best what to do in such cases and if this has happened before.

was it a bad cell? i remember hearing something about someone having that happen on a wheel also cant remember which one but basically a bad (maybe not bad just not charged) cell causing the wheel to cut off when there was a power spike

[meepmeepmayer]

11 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

was it a bad cell?

Maybe! Good call! I can't recall but it rings a bell.

But it was something unexpected (I suspected a broken capacitor) so an issue with a battery pack would be exactly the unexpected thing.

Now that you mentioned it, I think it was a bad cell. Not sure.

-

The seller will be the one who knows precisely such things.

Edited July 26, 2019 by meepmeepmayer
wrong word

[Daniel-Son]

I believe what he experienced was the legendary kingsong  tilt-back! It’s so aggressive that it can knock down even the best riders! It can feel like the wheel is cutting out on you especially  when your at 10 miles and zip up to 25 miles with 3rd alarm & tilt-back set at 25. Also if your battery is less than 20% - tilt-back kicks in at much lower speeds, so be aware of that. 

I suggest when you get well is to set the tilt-back at 8-10 miles and slowly ride it until you feel the tilt sensation. Then, try it again at a much faster pace so you can feel the aggressive tilt. 

I had two of the most amazing close calls I ever had because of tilt-back. We should rename it to “KS kick-back”! 

[Darrell Wesh]

2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I guarantee you that Kuji weighs a lot less than 180-pounds. Just sayin.

@Marty Backe What @Captain Ahab doesnt realize is kuji used his infamous padding on all his wheels (to jump, and to accelerate hard without falling off). A straight forward lean like he displayed in his 18xl vs MSX video should not be possible; a rider without his grippy ankle padding would fall off the front from losing balance. 

It’s better to accelerate/lean from one side instead of straight forward to mitigate the chances of losing balance and falling forward on the bigger wheels. 

After @Captain Ahab mentioned he has seen Kuji’s lean angles I’m almost positive he has been overleaning and subsequently losing balance and falling off his XL and not a cut out 

Edited July 26, 2019 by Darrell Wesh

[Captain Ahab]

54 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

@Marty Backe What @Captain Ahab doesnt realize is kuji used his infamous padding on all his wheels (to jump, and to accelerate hard without falling off). A straight forward lean like he displayed in his 18xl vs MSX video should not be possible; a rider without his grippy ankle padding would fall off the front from losing balance. 

It’s better to accelerate/lean from one side instead of straight forward to mitigate the chances of losing balance and falling forward on the bigger wheels. 

After @Captain Ahab mentioned he has seen Kuji’s lean angles I’m almost positive he has been overleaning and subsequently losing balance and falling off his XL and not a cut out 

So are you saying I'm veering at an angle as I accelerate because of unequal weight distribution? And that would cause a higher chance of losing balance? I mean it makes sense, that could very well be the case. I just remember my knees bending because the pedals were falling towards the ground.

[Jerome]

4 hours ago, JBinBalt said:

(Jerome - Didn't we just ride in Philly together last weekend?)

Indeed.

[meepmeepmayer]

@Captain Ahab Did you fall off the wheel forwards while the pedals stayed level? This is what their explanation would imply. Which is not overleaning, that means suddenly overpowering the wheel. Then the pedals would dip. But that doesn't happen at 10mph on an 18XL.

Edited July 27, 2019 by meepmeepmayer

[Captain Ahab]

5 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

@Captain Ahab Did you fall off the wheel forwards while the pedals stayed level? This is what their explanation would imply. Which is not overleaning, that means suddenly overpowering the wheel. Then the pedals would dip. But that doesn't happen at 10mph on an 18XL.

The pedals crashed towards the ground, did not stay level. that's why I described the 'wile e coyote' moment

[Rywokast]

8 minutes ago, Captain Ahab said:

The pedals crashed towards the ground, did not stay level. that's why I described the 'wile e coyote' moment

if that's true there's a control board issue

[meepmeepmayer]

21 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

if that's true there's a control board issue

Or battery issue.

This rules out the "He just didn't squeeze like Kuji" theory.

-

Either you managed to overlean (overpower) a fully-working 18XL (unlikely), or something's wrong with it.

[UniVehje]

Ok, semantics is hard. Here’s a beautiful picture of two scenarios. Above is a scenario where the rider leans too fast and a big wheel cannot accelerate fast enough. But the pedals stay level. The wheel is fine and this is a user error. This has happened to me when going from V10F to 18XL. I was used to quicker response and had to re-learn to accelerate slower on the bigger tire. (Although the 1.13 firmware helped a bit).

Below is a scenario where the pedals start to dib when accelerating fast. On an old small wheel this is simply over powering the wheel and in 18XL case it would mean there is something wrong with it. This also has happened to me with an old 16S that had a bad pair of cells and couldn’t keep up with a sudden spike from acceleration. 

[Rywokast]

17 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Ok, semantics is hard. Here’s a beautiful picture of two scenarios. Above is a scenario where the rider leans too fast and a big wheel cannot accelerate fast enough. But the pedals stay level. The wheel is fine and this is a user error. This has happened to me when going from V10F to 18XL. I was used to quicker response and had to re-learn to accelerate slower on the bigger tire. (Although the 1.13 firmware helped a bit).

Below is a scenario where the pedals start to dib when accelerating fast. On an old small wheel this is simply over powering the wheel and in 18XL case it would mean there is something wrong with it. This also has happened to me with an old 16S that had a bad pair of cells and couldn’t keep up with a sudden spike from acceleration. 

masterpiece! haha, artistry aside this exactly demonstrates the subtle (while riding) difference thats easier shown than said

[Darrell Wesh]

17 hours ago, Captain Ahab said:

I don't remember feeling a tilt back, but I cant say with any degree of confidence.

 

[Darrell Wesh]

7 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Did you fall off the wheel forwards while the pedals stayed level? This is what their explanation would imply. Which is not overleaning, that means suddenly overpowering the wheel. Then the pedals would dip. But that doesn't happen at 10mph on an 18XL.

 

7 hours ago, Captain Ahab said:

The pedals crashed towards the ground, did not stay level. that's why I described the 'wile e coyote' 

The guy said he can’t even remember if the pedals tilted back or not- an easily recognizable feature on Kingsongs- but somehow he’s dead set on knowing if the pedals stayed level vs dipping (which ironically is the opposite action of tiltback).  

I’ll tell you I’m still certain he just fell off it. It almost happened to me on my Ks18s. I was going on a flat road and had to come to a stop to brake for some pedestrians, and I decided to gun out with a hard acceleration. The 18s beeped once at me because the acceleration was too abrupt- no tiltback just a beep- and I almost lost my balance and fell off the wheel because it did not catch me quick enough for my lean angle. 

He also mentions a slow Superman, (even being able to feel helplessness!); most cases of cutouts describe it as like a rug being pulled beneath you with no time to even think; certainly not slow. 

Edited July 27, 2019 by Darrell Wesh