The Deadly Cut Out Discussion

[Captain Ahab]

Hi everyone, I've recently upgraded from a Solowheel Glide 3 (InMotion v8) to a King Song 18xl, and perhaps I was a bit unprepared for a 'big boy'wheel. Not knowing much about the 3 warning alarms in the app, I disabled the 1st and 2nd alarms and set the 3rd alarm to 25mph (the wheel was unlocked until I could put 125 miles on it. Tilt back also at 25mph. Well, I had my first spill going up a weak little hill (80 feet of incline, not steep), and I guess I must've just been overconfident and was over leaning. I heard a quick beep and then it cut out and I slingshotted toward the ground. Hadn't even owned the darn thing for 24 hrs! Knees and elbows scuffed, but wrist guards protected me. Fast forward about two weeks. Wrist guards, full face helmet, elbow and knee pads, cruising around town. I came to a cul de sac and as I turned around, I leaned into it what I thought was NOT overkill, was going maybe 10 mph, and it cut out on me again! No warning beep either! But as I'm sure you know, I felt like Wile E. Coyote does right before falling off the cliff with that feeling of helplessness and doom.  Knees and wrists totally fine, but I did a slow superman and hit my ribcage. Dusted myself off, said ouch that sucks, didn't think much of it. It took one full week later, then I woke up in excruciating pain on my ribs! Had to go to urgent care, they took xrays to make sure I didn't have a punctured lung. This level of pain, my friends, was the worst I've ever felt. They said probably a fractured rib. Now I'm on pain meds (btw, I bought a CBD topical balm, this stuff is an absolute miracle!), cant go to work, and am rotting on the couch, going on my second week. Pain is a bit better, but I'm still out of commission and won't be riding anytime soon. Everyone wants me to sell the wheel. Look, this is clearly user error. But two things: everyone, I wouldn't wish a rib fracture injury on my worst enemy, please please please don't let this happen to you! Get yourself some kind of chest protection! Second, and this is why I'm here, can we have a discussion about the deadly Cut out, how to prevent it, and maybe shed some light on my alarm settings on my King Song? I've since set my 1st, 2nd, and 3rd alarms to 20, 25, and 30mph respectively. I want to prevent this from ever happening again, and maybe save someone else from ever having to go through this!

Edited July 26, 2019 by Captain Ahab
Change from "cutoff" to "cut out" (power goes out, not lift sensor))

[esaj]

Unless you're a particularly heavy rider, I'd suspect that there's something wrong with the wheel. On your spills, did it tilt-back at all before cutting out? Were you accelerating fast?

[Captain Ahab]

3 minutes ago, esaj said:

Unless you're a particularly heavy rider, I'd suspect that there's something wrong with the wheel. On your spills, did it tilt-back at all before cutting out? Were you accelerating fast?

I don't remember feeling a tilt back, but I cant say with any degree of confidence. I'm a 180lb rider, so weight shouldn't be an issue.

[meepmeepmayer]

There's definitely something wrong with your wheel! This is not normal behavior. Not your (rider) fault.

Looks like it switches off on even a moderate power spike for some reason. Maybe something with the batteries? Some board component failure (capacitor)?

Don't let anyone else ride it.

Where did you buy from? Contact your seller.

-

If you need something to do, you could open the top and have a look at the board. Maybe you see something that looks wrong or fried. But don't feel pressured to, for a brand new wheel, it's the seller's job to fix this.

Hoping your injury gets better soon. Why do they say you "probably" have a fractured rib? Isn't the point of xray to look and know for sure?

[Captain Ahab]

2 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

There's definitely something wrong with your wheel! This is not normal behavior. Not your (rider) fault.

Looks like it switches off on even a moderate power spike for some reason. Maybe something with the batteries? Some board component failure (capacitor)?

Don't let anyone else ride it.

Where did you buy from? Contact your seller.

-

If you need something to do, you could open the top and have a look at the board. Maybe you see something that looks wrong or fried. But don't feel pressured to, for a brand new wheel, it's the seller's job to fix this.

Hoping your injury gets better soon. Why do they say you "probably" have a fractured rib? Isn't the point of xray to look and know for sure?

A broken or fractured rib is mostly a medical diagnosis because it is very difficult to detect a hairline break, unless it is snapped in half like a chicken bone. I bought it from eWheels, I'll check with Jason and see what he says. Thanks for the input.

[Darrell Wesh]

Sounds like the 2nd time wasn’t a cut out but you lost balance and fell off it. If it didn’t beep. Sounds like you are aware you are not using the larger wheel correctly, coming from a smaller wheel with much more zip to catch your forward leans you are leaning too far on this bigger wheel trying to make it accelerate the same.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Darrell Wesh

[Marty Backe]

Glad that you are basically OK. Ouch.

Now one thing that you wrote has me wondering if this is user error or equipment error. You say, "I came to a cul de sac and as I turned around, I leaned into it". I have seen videos of people leaning hard into an acceleration and then falling. A wheel (no matter how powerful) can only do so much to catch up to someone who is leaning far out in front of the wheel.

Could it be that you are being too aggressive, thinking that your wheel has more capability then it does? And what's your riding weight?

After learning from the school of hard knocks, I never hard lean into my wheel, either from a dead start or while already moving. If you monitored your currents you would realize the amazing amount of load that you place on the "system" when hard accelerating.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Marty Backe

[chrisjunlee]

2 hours ago, Captain Ahab said:

can we have a discussion about the deadly Cut out, how to prevent it

Start with doing some homework with the search term "nosedive". I spent a couple hours reading through and understanding how the wheel works before my first ride.

You're suppose to get tiltback before nosediving. You not mentioning any signs of tiltback makes me wonder if it's an issue with the wheel itself.

What's your bodyweight? 

[Jerome]

I doubt anything is wrong with the wheel. You had your alarm set right at 25 mph (locked) and the tilt-back at 25 mph. If you momentarily stress the wheel past those parameters (load wise not speed wise) the cut-off circuit might beat the alarm or tilt-back. You must decide how fast you want to go, but I recommend setting only the 3rd alarm at 25 mph and the tilt-back 29 -30 mph. You want to be warned in advance of tilt-back and you want tilt-back to activate before cut-off. 

Keep in mind I am using speed settings but actually it's all about the load on the battery-motor-controller. Also remember over leaning and extremely rapid acceleration draws amazing peak current requirements if only for seconds or fractions of a second. No matter how slow you're going, if you lean to far forward or sideways such that the the system is not able to correct, the cut-off circuit may beat the warning circuits. Gotways are more tolerant on this than King Song, but it can happen to them and all other brands.

Unlike e-scooters, esk8 boards, e-bikes, EUCs and the ONEWHEEL often use more power holding you up than propelling you forward. That's why the non-balancing PEVs will usually have more range and usable power although they may have equivalent or less battery - motor power. The KS18XL as well as all larger wheels can't be flicked around like a smaller wheel, but they can still be quite agile when properly mastered. Heal quick and ride safe.

[meepmeepmayer]

26 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

Start with doing some homework

26 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

What's your bodyweight? 

2 hours ago, Captain Ahab said:

I'm a 180lb rider

Free irony for those who find it

You guys are too hard on op I think. A guy coming from a V8 (never overleaned) is supposed to overlean an 18XL?

I still very much believe his wheel shuts down on moderate and totally normal power spikes. Which it shouldn't do!

[esaj]

The question is did it actually cut out (totally lose power, even for a moment, which shouldn't happen), or was it a rider fault with losing balance, or an overlean / too fast acceleration causing the motor to run out of torque (massive voltage drop, possibly with motor back-EMF reaching sagged voltage due to too high speed). Considering what powerhouses the current 18" wheels tend to be, I doubt a 180lbs / 80kg rider with prior riding experience could easily overpower them on accident. Especially the latter incident at low speed (10mph) makes me think this could be a fault in the wheel, unless he's almost throwing himself to a steep forward lean. Of course it is possible to overlean pretty much any wheel, if you really try...  I've done those from-sub-walking-speed-to-35km/h-way-too-fast -accelerations on a KS16S, albeit I weight only around 60kg, and never had the wheel fail me (but the sudden tilt-back is so crazy in those situations that I don't do it anymore ).

@Captain Ahab: was the battery low at either case?

Edited July 26, 2019 by esaj

[Captain Ahab]

45 minutes ago, Jerome said:

I doubt anything is wrong with the wheel. You had your alarm set right at 25 mph (locked) and the tilt-back at 25 mph. If you momentarily stress the wheel past those parameters (load wise not speed wise) the cut-off circuit might beat the alarm or tilt-back. You must decide how fast you want to go, but I recommend setting only the 3rd alarm at 25 mph and the tilt-back 29 -30 mph. You want to be warned in advance of tilt-back and you want tilt-back to activate before cut-off. 

Keep in mind I am using speed settings but actually it's all about the load on the battery-motor-controller. Also remember over leaning and extremely rapid acceleration draws amazing peak current requirements if only for seconds or fractions of a second. No matter how slow you're going, if you lean to far forward or sideways such that the the system is not able to correct, the cut-off circuit may beat the warning circuits. Gotways are more tolerant on this than King Song, but it can happen to them and all other brands.

Unlike e-scooters, esk8 boards, e-bikes, EUCs and the ONEWHEEL often use more power holding you up than propelling you forward. That's why the non-balancing PEVs will usually have more range and usable power although they may have equivalent or less battery - motor power. The KS18XL as well as all larger wheels can't be flicked around like a smaller wheel, but they can still be quite agile when properly mastered. Heal quick and ride safe.

Thanks Jerome, your reply seems to make sense to me. I needed to have the beep set before the tilt back. It's quite possible I just over leaned from a slow speed.

[Captain Ahab]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Glad that you are basically OK. Ouch.

Now one thing that you wrote has me wondering if this is user error or equipment error. You say, "I came to a cul de sac and as I turned around, I leaned into it". I have seen videos of people leaning hard into an acceleration and then falling. A wheel (no matter how powerful) can only do so much to catch up to someone who is leaning far out in front of the wheel.

Could it be that you are being too aggressive, thinking that your wheel has more capability then it does? And what's your riding weight?

After learning from the school of hard knocks, I never hard lean into my wheel, either from a dead start or while already moving. If you monitored your currents you would realize the amazing amount of load that you place on the "system" when hard accelerating.

I think you're right, I over leaned and was too aggressive. "Wow, so much more powerful than the v8, this thing must have no limits!"

[UniVehje]

1 minute ago, Captain Ahab said:

Wow, so much more powerful than the v8, this thing must have no limits!"

V8 is also quicker to catch you and accelerates faster from zero. You have now a bigger wheel which means you are permanently on a higher gear. It is possible to lean faster than the wheel can accelerate under you. And it is easier to do that on bigger wheels. It is not only about power.

[Rywokast]

i absolutely cant believe a 180 lb rider coming from a v8 could over power an 18XL.. shouldnt be possible even if you tried, i believe there is something wrong with your unit... ive never set alarms lower on any kingsong and never overpowered one or even came remotely close, i pay no attention to alarms and ride as hard and quick as i want without ever having more than a gentle tiltback nudge, you didnt even have the full speed unlocked ffs theres no way you should have ever been able to overlean it you would have been feeling very strong, very noticeable tiltback and had to have pushed through it intentionally.. i could see mayyyyybe if you were an extremely experienced rider and tried your absolute hardest to lean it as far as possible, then only maybe.. look at kuji rolls comparison video msx vs ks18xl, he has all sorts of tests including gunning it as hard as he can from standstill hes leaning at a near 45 degree angle and TRYING to push it as hard as he possibly can throughout the video and never has any issues, there are lots of riders heavier than you pushing their 18xls very hard all the time.. either it was something else entirely or you have a faulty unit imo

Edited July 26, 2019 by Rywokast

[Rywokast]

1 hour ago, esaj said:

The question is did it actually cut out (totally lose power, even for a moment, which shouldn't happen), or was it a rider fault with losing balance, or an overlean / too fast acceleration causing the motor to run out of torque (massive voltage drop, possibly with motor back-EMF reaching sagged voltage due to too high speed). Considering what powerhouses the current 18" wheels tend to be, I doubt a 180lbs / 80kg rider with prior riding experience could easily overpower them on accident. Especially the latter incident at low speed (10mph) makes me think this could be a fault in the wheel, unless he's almost throwing himself to a steep forward lean. Of course it is possible to overlean pretty much any wheel, if you really try...  I've done those from-sub-walking-speed-to-35km/h-way-too-fast -accelerations on a KS16S, albeit I weight only around 60kg, and never had the wheel fail me (but the sudden tilt-back is so crazy in those situations that I don't do it anymore ).

@Captain Ahab: was the battery low at either case?

^ either this, rider fault with losing balance.. or a faulty unit.. unless extremely low battery/some other unsafe behavior.. i know when i got my first 18XL coming from 14 and 16" wheels i very nearly threw myself off of it a few times because i was expecting immediate reaction like on my smaller wheels, i learned there is a delay and to expect that but the first ride i nearly leaned right off because i just kept leaning expecting it to do something haha.. then again im 120 lbs so i have to put a bit more effort into nudging it than someone a lot heavier

[JBinBalt]

Very sorry that this happened to you @Captain Ahab, I hope you heal up quickly and keep riding.  As one who's tread your path previously (owning a V8 and upgrading to an 18-XL), I'm in the camp that feels like you'd have to be doing something pretty extreme to cause this behavior on an 18XL, especially at slow speeds.  I understand it is not a quick off the line as a V8, but there is SO MUCH MORE power.  I overleaned mine one time when accelerating away from a stop sign.  At the time it was locked to 40kph with the 3rd alarm and tilt-back both maxed, so essentially the same settings as yours.  I got beeps and tilt back, not a cut out.  This was after having replaced a controller, so it was really my second time riding through the 125 to unlock on that wheel and I was not really new on it wheel at the time.  All of that said, I think @Jerome (Jerome - Didn't we just ride in Philly together last weekend?) makes a good point on modifying your settings based on what happened.

I've also been dumped from my 18XL once, and there's video of it posted on this site.  I blame the wheel, partly due to some other issues I've had with it, though others put it to rider error.  This hurts my pride more than the actual fall ;-) 

[Captain Ahab]

1 hour ago, Rywokast said:

^ either this, rider fault with losing balance.. or a faulty unit.. unless extremely low battery/some other unsafe behavior.. i know when i got my first 18XL coming from 14 and 16" wheels i very nearly threw myself off of it a few times because i was expecting immediate reaction like on my smaller wheels, i learned there is a delay and to expect that but the first ride i nearly leaned right off because i just kept leaning expecting it to do something haha.. then again im 120 lbs so i have to put a bit more effort into nudging it than someone a lot heavier

Battery couldn't have been less than 80%, I'm beginning to think I just expected the same acceleration as my v8 and just don't know any better that a bigger wheel doesn't take off like the smaller ones. Hard lesson to learn, unfortunately. 

[Captain Ahab]

1 hour ago, Rywokast said:

i absolutely cant believe a 180 lb rider coming from a v8 could over power an 18XL.. shouldnt be possible even if you tried, i believe there is something wrong with your unit... ive never set alarms lower on any kingsong and never overpowered one or even came remotely close, i pay no attention to alarms and ride as hard and quick as i want without ever having more than a gentle tiltback nudge, you didnt even have the full speed unlocked ffs theres no way you should have ever been able to overlean it you would have been feeling very strong, very noticeable tiltback and had to have pushed through it intentionally.. i could see mayyyyybe if you were an extremely experienced rider and tried your absolute hardest to lean it as far as possible, then only maybe.. look at kuji rolls comparison video msx vs ks18xl, he has all sorts of tests including gunning it as hard as he can from standstill hes leaning at a near 45 degree angle and TRYING to push it as hard as he possibly can throughout the video and never has any issues, there are lots of riders heavier than you pushing their 18xls very hard all the time.. either it was something else entirely or you have a faulty unit imo

It's exactly because ok Kuji Rolls side by side tests of gunning the 18xl and msx  that's making me think something could be awry here. I mean he flung himself into the wheel and nothing happened.

[Rywokast]

1 minute ago, Captain Ahab said:

Battery couldn't have been less than 80%, I'm beginning to think I just expected the same acceleration as my v8 and just don't know any better that a bigger wheel doesn't take off like the smaller ones. Hard lesson to learn, unfortunately. 

i could see that as an infinitely more likely scenario.. yes it is sorry to hear about you sounds like you took quite the beating :/

[Rywokast]

1 minute ago, Captain Ahab said:

It's exactly because ok Kuji Rolls side by side tests of gunning the 18xl and msx  that's making me think something could be awry here. I mean he flung himself into the wheel and nothing happened.

exactly, he didnt even hit tilt back there... ive seen much heavier riders do the same like 200 lbs+ and at the most they get is some tiltback... i have never heard of an 18xl or even 16s that i can recall cutting out due to over leaning.. except for some very rare occasions like over voltage or something blowing on the board

[ir_fuel]

It's extremely hard to judge this kind of thing externally, as there are so many subjective terms being used in the description. You would need logs from WheelLog or something similar to make objective conclusions.

Also I think that it's hard to compare with even those successful extreme accelerations talked about. Compare it with a car with a lot of HP. If from standstill you floor the throttle you get wheelspin and you go nowhere, but you just gave it "all it's got". Someone who seems to do the same but progressively opens that same throttle shoots away without drama. The difference can be quite subtle. I think with our wheels it's the same when going from a standstill. Even if 0.5 seconds later you see an "extreme" forward lean, how progressive was the "lean in" from a standstill? It's that very first part where the current spike is the worst.

 

IMO  

 

[AtlasP]

1 hour ago, Rywokast said:

i absolutely cant believe a 180 lb rider coming from a v8 could over power an 18XL.. shouldnt be possible even if you tried

I don't think this is right, in fact I think it might be backwards. The larger, heavier wheels actually accelerate slower than the light zippy ones. In going from a V8 to a V10F I almost fell off the front of it once or twice the first couple days trying to accelerate or pendulum like I was used to on the V8, and the heavier V10F was just slower to respond/accelerate/change direction. And I've read similar things (even just as recently as a few months ago on here) from people going from their learner wheel to larger wheels like the KS18XL and overleaning and faceplanting on it the first week.

No matter the power/motor size, simple mathematics proves that it is incredibly easy to lean forward more aggressively than any wheel on the market currently can accommodate.

Edited July 26, 2019 by AtlasP

[Rywokast]

15 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

It's extremely hard to judge this kind of thing externally, as there are so many subjective terms being used in the description. You would need logs from WheelLog or something similar to make objective conclusions.

Also I think that it's hard to compare with even those successful extreme accelerations talked about. Compare it with a car with a lot of HP. If from standstill you floor the throttle you get wheelspin and you go nowhere, but you just gave it "all it's got". Someone who seems to do the same but progressively opens that same throttle shoots away without drama. The difference can be quite subtle. I think with our wheels it's the same when going from a standstill. Even if 0.5 seconds later you see an "extreme" forward lean, how progressive was the "lean in" from a standstill? It's that very first part where the current spike is the worst.

 

IMO  

 

yes its true, of course its always very hard to diagnose something like this based on words alone.. i am just of the opinion that someone 180 lb, especially someone coming from an inmotion V8 and not say a monster, could possibly overlean an 18XL.. its easy for THEM to overlean and fall off, but i find it very hard to believe that they could cause an 18XL to cutout from it under normal circumstances

[Rywokast]

3 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

I don't think this is right, in fact I think it might be backwards. The larger, heavier wheels actually accelerate slower than the light zippy ones. In going from a V8 to a V10F I almost fell off the front of it once or twice the first couple days trying to accelerate or pendulum like I was used to on the V8, and the heavier V10F was just slower to respond/accelerate/change direction. And I've read similar things (even just as recently as a few months ago on here) from people going from their learner wheel to larger wheels like the KS18XL and overleaning and faceplanting on it the first week.

we are in agreement lol.. this is exactly what im saying.. you personally can easily overlean and faceplant, no problem whatsoever.. im just saying its not the wheel cutting out on you BECAUSE you overleaned and it couldnt keep up, its simply you leaning right off  if i get on an inmotion v5 and lean as hard as i can forwards, it will simply spike, then cut power and go limp from under me causing me to fly off.. if i hop on a monster and lean as hard as i possibly can, with no experience on a monster i would probably also fly off the front, but the wheel will not have cut out or be underpowered and not up to the task, i will have just leaned myself off because its slow acceleration wasnt quick enough to catch up to me, as someone used to being on smaller zippy wheels could expect, this is not any fault of the wheel and it did not cut out, nothing went wrong.. im just simply inexperienced then

Edited July 26, 2019 by Rywokast