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Mono

Faceplanting, I thought I was above and beyond...

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4 hours ago, Mono said:

I am reluctant to see much value in how-to-fall information. Why? Because one needs to practice a lot to change reflexes for situations that rarely if ever happen. It is different for skaters, because they fall all the time, it is part of their game and will always be, many times a day, so they do get the practice in. Having said that, this is another vid with thoughts from two guys who are provable very good at falling from skateboards.

Most notably unusual I found the tip to push forward with the arms before hitting the ground, I guess also to prevent getting stuck in a locked position. Watching more actual falls in particular from Carlos (Aaron is mainly avoiding to fall hard nowadays) is probably as helpful as watching the talk.

 

 

I subscribe to the same logic Mono. How to fall videos are useless unless you do tricks on your EUC. Skateboarders learn how to fall because they do tricks. They won’t learn how to fall just doing normal commuting.

For normal riding, something is seriously wrong if you are getting a lot of practice falling. And without practice you can’t train your response to be instinctual. You’re more likely to do more harm than good by overthinking how you’re going to land a fall .

Science dictates that the least chance of injury happens when your muscles are relaxed. Think of your muscles as pasta noodles. When rigid and hard (overthinking) they “snap”. When relaxed and loose they absorb impact without snapping. From years of competitive experience in high stress sporting events, I’ve deceloped a calm mindset in the face of adrenaline induced situations. I remember from moments I’ve fallen that when I’m about to fall I’m at complete ease and completely calm and relaxed. I just let my gear do it’s job and let go. I don’t try to run it out (unrealistic at 20-30+mph) I just let instinct take over.

On my smaller 14” wheels, I’ve hit potholes that have thrown me off the wheel but at slower speeds (10-15mph) my body can run it off without me even having to think about running it off, I’m just staying relaxed letting instinct work. 

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58 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Well it’s pretty much fact that a slide is better than a roll. If you have the abrasion resistant clothing, you can come out of a long slide with no damage and no impact bruises. A roll is what causes outstretched limbs to break. 

Sure, if sliding is possible. The bulk of riding I do is on  trails/road where tumbling is somewhat inevitable because of lack of smooth surface. I certainly wasn’t suggesting the type of rag doll rolling where all of your limbs are wildly rotating about. But I would rather slide tucked on my side than a “Superman” belly slide with shoulder joints in flexion. Just for clarification but I take your point.

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I do both: 

Low speed. ( < 10 mph) - roll

High speed - ( > 10 mph)  slide .... or turn to get into a slide position. The slide should not last long on an EUC. 

  I wrecked a motorcycle at 70 mph while going down a long steep hill. I did not think I was ever going to stop sliding. I had minimal protection and was breaking out in rash everywhere. ( I am allergic to asphalt)  I tried to wiggle around to spread out the damage. I must have looked like bacon cooking on a hot skillet.  I still have most of the scars. ( none too bad)  Rolling at that speed would kill you. ( or break every bone twice)  

When you wreck on an EUC at 25mph+ you are going to fast to roll but end up doing it anyway. I think this is why people get hurt so bad. Everything that sticks out breaks off. 

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3 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

 subscribe to the same logic Mono. How to fall videos are useless unless you do tricks on your EUC. Skateboarders learn how to fall because they do tricks. They won’t learn how to fall just doing normal commuting.

For normal riding, something is seriously wrong if you are getting a lot of practice falling.

In the end, there's no difference between "self-inflicted" crash-landings (because you were doing tricks) and unforeseen ones (because a half-blind cat decided to cross the road); the result will be the same. I understand your argument about practice-falling and reflex-learning: they require A LOT OF repetition, and aren't skills to be acquired in normal riding circumstances, But learning them (self-imposed repetition) for "emergency-reaction" scenarios isn't a bad move (of you don't mind a few bruises to potentially avert a broken bone further down the road). It takes time and practice; Just like people go to a shooting range to practice their aim even if they don't expect to have to pull out their handgun...Is it necessary? Who's to say. But despite how unlikely it may be for you to ever require that skill, you'll be glad to have it if the need ever arises...

I'm just saying, PRECISELY because reflex reactions require repetition to be engraved, IN MY CASE, I'vvechosen  to do exactly that: repeat (on my wheel) those scenarios so that, if they ever arise, I'm prepared (or at least more so than if I hadn't drilled myself to do so). Everyone is free to do what they want, I'm just saying, I broke a ton of bones during my teenage years and learned the hard way, and IN MY PARTICULAR CASE, I'd rather develop falling reactions via repetition (like skaters do), risking minor bruises, than risk a much more serious injury because I don't know how to fall, when the situation (inevitably) arises...

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@travsformation  when you practice EUC falling, is your EUC taking a lot of damage?  Do you have a way to protect it?

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34 minutes ago, paulz said:

@travsformation  when you practice EUC falling, is your EUC taking a lot of damage?  Do you have a way to protect it?

My thoughts as well! What about the EUC!!

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45 minutes ago, travsformation said:

In the end, there's no difference between "self-inflicted" crash-landings (because you were doing tricks) and unforeseen ones (because a half-blind cat decided to cross the road); the result will be the same. I understand your argument about practice-falling and reflex-learning: they require A LOT OF repetition, and aren't skills to be acquired in normal riding circumstances, But learning them (self-imposed repetition) for "emergency-reaction" scenarios isn't a bad move (of you don't mind a few bruises to potentially avert a broken bone further down the road). It takes time and practice; Just like people go to a shooting range to practice their aim even if they don't expect to have to pull out their handgun...Is it necessary? Who's to say. But despite how unlikely it may be for you to ever require that skill, you'll be glad to have it if the need ever arises...

I'm just saying, PRECISELY because reflex reactions require repetition to be engraved, IN MY CASE, I'vvechosen  to do exactly that: repeat (on my wheel) those scenarios so that, if they ever arise, I'm prepared (or at least more so than if I hadn't drilled myself to do so). Everyone is free to do what they want, I'm just saying, I broke a ton of bones during my teenage years and learned the hard way, and IN MY PARTICULAR CASE, I'd rather develop falling reactions via repetition (like skaters do), risking minor bruises, than risk a much more serious injury because I don't know how to fall, when the situation (inevitably) arises...

 Please make a YouTube video of these practice sessions :popcorn:🍿

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I used the InMotion protective cover and a few automotive strips on my KS16 and let 4 people learn with it. It still looks great. I have watched it bounce and flip hundreds of times. 

Edit: The pedals look rough. 

You can practice in the grass to reduce damage. 

 

 

Edited by RockyTop
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1 hour ago, paulz said:

@travsformation  when you practice EUC falling, is your EUC taking a lot of damage?  Do you have a way to protect it?

Lots of EVA foam at critical spots, plus the inmotion cover. Also, I use a leash when riding because of how hilly where I live is--I don't want a runaway wheel hurting anyone--, so that helps prevent damage to the wheel, even if it makes falling more complex (legs tangled in leash, leash caught on knee pads, etc.). 

19 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

 Please make a YouTube video of these practice sessions :popcorn:🍿

Only if you promise to help subsidize the installation of EVA foam on the entire basketball court. Falls ain't free these days, especially with this economy... :efee612b4b: 

19 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

used the InMotion protective cover and a few automotive strips on my KS16 and let 4 people learn with it. It still looks great. I have watched it bounce and flip hundreds of times. 

Edit: The pedals look rough. 

You can practice in the grass to reduce damage. 

Same results here. Not a single crack so far. As to grass, not much around here...the only kind I can find seriously messes with my concentration....  :efee612b4b:

Edited by travsformation
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On 11/30/2018 at 3:29 PM, Mono said:

I am reluctant to see much value in how-to-fall information. Why?

My point was that they do put the hours and hours and hours of practice in that is needed and most of us will never come even close.


@Mono I stand (partially) corrected. It would appear that the reflexes I developed 15 years ago during my aggressive half-pipe rollerblading stage are rustier than I thought they were and my crash-practices haven't been enough to revive them, so when a fall occurs that I'm not expecting, at this point in time, they're not worth squat. Was turning at about 10 km/h on sleek cement, hit a muddy puddle I hadn't seen, wheel slid out from under me and fell hands-first (no rolling), direct impact against the concrete. Wrist-guards didn't do squat: articular contusion and two weeks of wearing a splint.

Lessons learned:

- It's going to take a lot more practice and lots more falls 'til my reactions are back to what they used to be. I still see value in knowing how to fall (and am stubborn as hell), so I do plan on further training those skills, but will definitely find a grassy area to do so, as suggested by @RockyTop (Sidenote: I wasn't practising falling when I injured my wrist)

- The wrist-guards I was using didn't do squat to prevent the injury.

20960yu.jpg

If I'd been going faster, they would have allowed my palm to slide, dissipating the impact, but at slower speeds, and at the angle I fell, they did nothing, as they offer no resistance to impact. Something like this would have been much better:

25rz24p.jpg

The plastic palm insert, as well as offering protection from abrasion and contributing to the slide, would have flexed at lower speeds and absorbed part of the impact, which my current wrist-guards don't do.

Edited by travsformation
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44 minutes ago, travsformation said:

The wrist-guards I was using didn't do squat to prevent the injury.

That's a valuable report, though you can't know whether the wrist guards prevented a broken wrist, can you? After all, a contusion is a comparatively mild injury. Some people believe wrist guards are barely effective at all (which I find hard to believe) and it seems difficult to get actual empirical data on their efficacy. Fortunately, I personally don't need to worry about the efficacy of protection gear :thumbup:

Edited by Mono
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The second pair of wrist gaurds work much better. Wrist gaurds seem to do several things:

  1) brace the wrist

  2) protect the skin on your palm 

  3) slide instead of catching the ground and forcing your arm or shoulder to break

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Might just have been an unlucky fall. Protective gear reduces the chance and severity of injury, but can't always prevent it. And you don't know what would have happened without guards or with other guards.

5 hours ago, travsformation said:

The plastic palm insert, as well as offering protection from abrasion and contributing to the slide, would have flexed at lower speeds and absorbed part of the impact, which my current wrist-guards don't do.

There is the theory that these skateboard-style plastic slide plates are bent outwards too much and can offer too much resistance (at speed) instead of allowing the hand to slide forwards more freely. You might have less injury (think shoulder) with a flatter design.

So in other words, if you're not happy with your current wrist guards, get your wallet drunk and into a dark back alley*, and order some Flexmeters if you want to be sure.

Theory.

*It should be used to that by now:ph34r:

@RockyTop Exactly. In order of importance: 2 > 3 > 1

5 hours ago, Mono said:

That's a valuable report, though you can't know whether the wrist guards prevented a broken wrist, can you? After all, a contusion is a comparatively mild injury. Some people believe wrist guards are barely effective at all (which I find hard to believe) and it seems difficult to get actual empirical data on their efficacy. Fortunately, I personally don't need to worry about the efficacy of protection gear :thumbup:

Good point.

And genius move. Wear no gear, then you don't have to worry about how good your gear is:efefa6edcf:

(By the way, since this is your thread, I think it fits better in the riding safety forum.)

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Wow! Interesting thread! I'm going to inject another train of thought.. How about the Law of Attraction? I didn't have a fall until another EUC friend started speaking about it. I didn't get afraid of falling until after watching too many crash vids, and admittedly, it's been on my mind, and I managed to manifest a bad wreck a few weeks ago.  Maybe we should just gear up best we can/want, be careful and stop talking about it so much? Energy flows to where our attention goes. Maybe worth a try, and I say this after crashing recently, breaking a rib and ordering more protective gear. But perhaps, I'm just going to stop looking at threads about crashes and return to zen...Be safe out there and manifest a reality where the fear of crashing like "that bad wipe out we watched on YouTube" stays out of  your mind's (or manifestation chamber) focus. Reality starts with a thought, and I for one am going to try to limit my attention to falls, wipe out vids. (if I can! 😜) I'm geared and going to focus on the beauty of riding our believed unibots...

Edited by Rama Douglas
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I too had a very interesting experience with an unexpected speed bump. I was airborne forever, at least it felt like it, then I landed square on the pedals and just kept on riding. Talk about needing to buy a lottery ticket! :D 

That one could have ended very badly, but didn't. I think my heart skipped a beat or three, then compensated the next 10 minutes by beating at double speed.

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1 hour ago, Scatcat said:

I too had a very interesting experience with an unexpected speed bump. I was airborne forever, at least it felt like it, then I landed square on the pedals and just kept on riding.

Cooooool Brah !  :efee6b18f3:  Speed bumps are great for catching crazy air man!  :thumbup: 

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5 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

Cooooool Brah !  :efee6b18f3:  Speed bumps are great for catching crazy air man!  :thumbup: 

My poor tummy, it didn't quite follow me the whole time, first it was below me, then above me.

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On 12/5/2018 at 1:03 PM, Mono said:

That's a valuable report, though you can't know whether the wrist guards prevented a broken wrist, can you? After all, a contusion is a comparatively mild injury. Some people believe wrist guards are barely effective at all (which I find hard to believe) and it seems difficult to get actual empirical data on their efficacy. Fortunately, I personally don't need to worry about the efficacy of protection gear :thumbup:

No way to know, exactly. And glad it's only a contusion.  What is quite clear, despite the limitations in build quality of my wrist-guards, is that they can certainly prevent tendon/ligament rupture due to over-extension.

Don't plan on trying it with zero protection to find out the difference though.... ;)

On 12/5/2018 at 6:14 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

There is the theory that these skateboard-style plastic slide plates are bent outwards too much and can offer too much resistance (at speed) instead of allowing the hand to slide forwards more freely. You might have less injury (think shoulder) with a flatter design.

Hadn't considered the outwards bend offering more resistance. Sounds feasible enough... but as @Mono said, empirical data is impossible to come by with these things.

As it goes, I bought a pair of such wrist-guards, but they were too small, and it wasn't worth returning them because the shipping costs were on me, so I gave them to my girlfriend for rollerblading. She doesn't ride fast, so the abrasion resistance at speed issue shouldn't be a problem for her. Comparing them with the ones I own, they brace the wrist much better, as they have 3 wide and sturdy velcro straps as opposed to the 2 flimsy ones on the ones I use. On the down side, the palm-side plate has no cushioning at the end, and just applying a bit of pressure with my hand against the wall, I could feel the end of the plate digging into my palm; in the event of a hard impact where the plate flattens out, that might not be an issue, but if it isn't hard enough a fall for it to do so, I got the impression it could be pretty painful, and prevention of one type of injury might lead to another one. This surely isn't going to be the same with all such wrist-guards, but it did seem like somewhat of a design flaw in terms of these particular (ProTec) ones. Will see if I can find a DIY solution (file off/round of the plate tip, add some sort of padding, etc.) for my partner's wrist guards

On 12/5/2018 at 6:14 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

if you're not happy with your current wrist guards, get your wallet drunk and into a dark back alley*, and order some Flexmeters if you want to be sure.

Theory.

*It should be used to that by now:ph34r:

If I had to get another set, unwilling as I am to further assault my wallet against its will to get some Flexmeters (:P), and based on my experience and what you and @RockyTop said, I'd probably go for something like what I have but with better build quality, especially better straps and some decent padding under the palm.

Edited by travsformation
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1 hour ago, travsformation said:

What is quite clear, despite the limitations in build quality of my wrist-guards, is that they can certainly prevent tendon/ligament rupture due to over-extension.

Why do you say this? I don't think I ever heard of tendon or ligament rupture in the hand or wrist from "over-extension" or falling or even otherwise (unless cut with a knife or saw). If it exists, it must be quite rare (compared to broken bones in the hand, the wrist, or the radius) and no real reason to worry about. If wrist guards do not prevent a broken wrist at least in some cases, they are really useless IMHO. But as always, wearing them may lead to more additional risk taking as they can the user protect from.

Edited by Mono

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On 11/30/2018 at 6:38 PM, RockyTop said:

I used the InMotion protective cover and a few automotive strips on my KS16 and let 4 people learn with it. It still looks great. I have watched it bounce and flip hundreds of times. 

Edit: The pedals look rough. 

You can practice in the grass to reduce damage. 

 

 

I used the twist and fall technique 2 weekends ago! Loss control of the wheel and it veer off and headed towards a low knee height fence and I knew I wouldn't be able to stop in time. So I twisted 180 and half fell and half sat on the fence.

Learning how to fall is huge, when I use to teach roller blade I would have people intentionally fall while going at low speed. getting over the discomfort of falling means that you would be relaxed and reacting rather than tense and panicking. Huge difference!

I highly recommand everyone practice bailing from their wheel on the grass as practice.

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26 minutes ago, Mono said:

Why do you say this? I don't think I ever heard of tendon or ligament rupture in the hand or wrist from "over-extension" or falling or even otherwise (unless cut with a knife or saw). If it exists, it must be quite rare (compared to broken bones in the hand, the wrist, or the radius) and no real reason to worry about. If wrist guards do not prevent a broken wrist at least in some cases, they are really useless IMHO. But as always, wearing them may lead to more additional risk taking as they can the user protect from.

I mean wrist bending backwards (as in "try to touch your elbow with your fingertips) :efee612b4b:  Rare in faceplant or general forward/lateral fall scenarios, but not that unlikely in buttplants. Bend your wrist backward enough and you can cause serious tendon or ligament injuries (been there, done that...). Most wrist-guards do a fairly good job at preventing that, even the budget ones (skateboard gloves that don't extend further up the arm, on the other hand, don't do squat in that sense).

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19 minutes ago, Hsiang said:

I used the twist and fall technique 2 weekends ago! Loss control of the wheel and it veer off and headed towards a low knee height fence and I knew I wouldn't be able to stop in time. So I twisted 180 and half fell and half sat on the fence.

Learning how to fall is huge, when I use to teach roller blade I would have people intentionally fall while going at low speed. getting over the discomfort of falling means that you would be relaxed and reacting rather than tense and panicking. Huge difference!

I highly recommand everyone practice bailing from their wheel on the grass as practice.

Spot on, couldn't agree more!

It's like watching Judo fights in the Olympics. I've had friends remark that it's all for showmanship because "when twist-spin motion is applied, no one reacts like that, the victim is intentionally jumping and contorting, for show, like in a WWE". Except that's not the case: Failure to do so would result in serious luxation; since they understand the biodynamics and are trained to react accordingly, they "go with the flow" to prevent injury. Same principle applies to any sport involving falls: On my mountain bike, I've learned to swivel one leg over the frame of the bike so I can jump off and land safely on my feet without ending up amidst a messy tangle  of limbs, aluminium and sharp-edged cogs; rollerblading, I know (or used to know) how to roll or slide to dissipate impact; snowboarding, one learns how to use the board's momentum to stop or roll as opposed to having that same inertia absorbed by the body; surfing, one learns to curl up in a ball and hold his breath after a wipeout instead of becoming a rag doll exposed to all kind of dangerous contortions.

I'm not saying knowing how to fall is the one and only way to prevent injury, but it's definitely not detrimental, and can help turn a 3-point fracture into a mild contusion...

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As an older motorcycle rider, we were taught that you wear leather to slide until you're slow enough to roll out. Not one or the other. You don't want to slide all the way to a stop, and you don't want to tumble at too high a speed.

As for the videos of Carlos Lastra ... that guy's a freak of nature. Probably not the best idea for the average Joe to look to him for inspiration on how to fall. Even the other guys in his crew flinch when he hits, and he just shakes it off.

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