Practicing with the V10F - what not to do

[Nils]

Today I learned what not do when practicing with the V10F. I was practicing riding backwards, when the V10 dropped me right on my behind (which I can only guess is called a butt plant ). In the interest of science (or alternatively because I'm a slow learner) I persisted and had it happen two times more. At this point I had a sore butt and started theorizing about whether breaks to initiate backwards riding in conjunction with a fully charged battery was causing the wheel to cut out somehow.

Well, it was only after a while that I realized my error - I had fastened a strap around the handle in order to avoid too many scratches on the wheel, like I previously had done with my KS16, and when I breaked and leaned backwards I occasionally managed to stretch it enough that it triggered the disconnect handler..

[em1barns]

2 minutes ago, Nils said:

Today I learned what not do when practicing with the V10F. I was practicing riding backwards, when the V10 dropped my right on my behind (which I can only guess is called a butt plant ). In the interest of science (or alternatively because I'm a slow learner) I persisted and had it happen two times more. At this point I had a sore butt and started theorizing about whether breaks to initiate backwards riding in conjunction with a fully charged battery was causing the wheel to cut out somehow. 

Well, it was only after a while that I realized my error - I had fastened a strap around the handle in order to avoid too many scratches on the wheel, like I previously had done with my KS16, and when I breaked and leaned backwards I occasionally managed to stretch it enough that it triggered the disconnect handler..

You can disable the handle motor trigger button in the app.... ;)

[Nils]

Just now, em1barns said:

You can disable the handle motor trigger button in the app....

Thanks, I know I didn't bother myself but just tied the strap in front of the disconnect handle which also worked.

[Fastmike]

I thought that it was deactivated automatically as soon as you start to move...   

[Nils]

1 minute ago, Fastmike said:

I thought that it was deactivated automatically as soon as you start to move...   

I do believe it is but in this scenario I rode forward, stopped in order to start riding backwards , and then mistakenly cranked the handle while the wheel was at a standstill. So there's no timeout after stopping before you can actually use the disconnect. Again, I believe and hope that it's deactivated while riding, but I'll let someone else test that

[WARPed1701D]

2 hours ago, Fastmike said:

I thought that it was deactivated automatically as soon as you start to move...   

 Above 5kph the button is disabled. Below that it will activate and stop drive to the wheel. This is to facilitate quick pickup while walking without stopping. Forward riding doesn't generally cause a problem as you are almost always over 5kph but learning backwards I'm sure you are within the threashold much of the time and risk the issue faced by the OP.

[steve454]

I had two buttplants on my ninebot one E+ when first trying to learn riding backwards, but not from a cutoff switch (E+ doesn't have one).  It was from braking too quickly and leaning back too far causing the wheel to give up momentarily.  I weigh 205 pounds and the wheel didn't have the power asked for.

 

 

[Mono]

3 hours ago, Nils said:

Again, I believe and hope that it's deactivated while riding, but I'll let someone else test that

If the V8 counts as indicator I can attest that it is deactivated. I activate the LEDs regularly while riding, which is done by pushing the tilt switch plus the on/off switch. All done in the name of science, of course, just kidding.

For a little while I did your exercise deliberately, pushing the button while riding slowly to see how it goes when the wheel silently switches off, but only riding forward. Now you make me wonder whether I should try it also backwards.

I find the activation speed of the kill switch delicately well chosen. I would think it is still considerably below 5km/h for the V8. Still, when I pick it up while walking into a stair case, I am always slow enough to get the deactivation working as I expect it too.

[travsformation]

On 8/7/2018 at 5:32 PM, Mono said:

For a little while I did your exercise deliberately, pushing the button while riding slowly to see how it goes when the wheel silently switches off

On the subject of the strap (I know this thread has been dormant for a few months, but I'm compiling links to create THE GREAT LEASH/STRAP THREAD, and came across this one), particularly in terms of wheels with a kill switch or sensor on the handle, has anyone come up with a solution in terms of not accidentally hitting the kill switch (aside from deactivating it from the app)?

I initially thought I'd figured out the perfect system for my V8: create a "second handle" to attach the strap to where there'd be no risk of hitting the kill switch:

I thought it was very clever but nope...it doesn't work. No matter how much you tighten the straps to the handle, the shape makes it near impossible to keep the front part in place, so it always ends up slipping backward towards the kill switch (I've tried all kinds of different systems and materials, from paracord and thin climbing cord to ratchet straps and heavy duty zip ties). In the end I just ended up deactivating the kill switch.

As a leash, I started using the same type of climbing strap used for the handle invention (7kN resistance, should be enough  ), but find that, as a learner, at shorter lengths it limits my arm movement (and I sometimes find myself accidentally using it as a reign when turning), and if longer, it's a hassle because you have to make sure to pick up the slack every time you raise your arm so it doesn't get in your way or get caught in the wheel/a bush, etc. So yesterday, just for the sake of it, I tried a retractable dog leash:

I know this might not be the most popular of options and (probably most) riders aren't going to fancy carrying something as bulky as that in while riding, but I have to say it works GREAT! 

For learners it might have a pretty good pay-off: You can raise your arms as much as you want (no risk of activating the kill switch) and when you lower them it automatically picks up the slack. If you fall off, all you have to do is hit the "lock" button with your thumb and you can catch the wheel before it falls/runs away. It's equally useful if you have the kill switch deactivated thanks to the care-free freedom of movement it provides. The downside is that it's pretty bulky and the sturdier models aren't light. I'll test it out for a few more days and see if I still think it pays off.

Sidenote: If you decide to try one of these out, the one thing that's important is for the leash to be thicker than the one pictured above, for larger dogs (I'd say a leash for a 40 kg / 90 lb dog is about right), not only because of the strap itself but also in terms of the strength of the locking mechanism.

What do you think? Does this seam like a viable option or does anyone have any lighter/less bulky solutions I haven't come across yet? 

Time to move on to the next link/tab in the "great leash-posts compilation task" !  

 

[FreeRide]

I've not tested that model, I'm sure others have, but all of them usually disable any kill switches like the power button if the wheel is moving.if you want to have something on the handle and absolutely never activate the switch you could use something very stiff, like a cut section of PVC pipe and place it over the switching have it long enough that it cannot be compressed into the switch, and will not collapse with any reasonable force applied to it.

[travsformation]

14 minutes ago, FreeRide said:

if you want to have something on the handle and absolutely never activate the switch you could use something very stiff, like a cut section of PVC pipe and place it over the switching

Good idea, I hadn't thought of blocking access to the kill switch--only of circumventing it.

18 minutes ago, FreeRide said:

I've not tested that model, I'm sure others have, but all of them usually disable any kill switches like the power button if the wheel is moving.

Yeah, @WARPed1701D has a V8 and tested it, it's above 5 km/h. But still, the risk of accidentally tugging on the leash and butt-planting when performing an emergency stop or slowing down to under that speed for whatever reason is one I'd rather avoid, so I initially just disabled the kill switch via the app. Not many stairs where I live so I just switched the wheel off when I wanted to pick it up and then switched it back on again (which isn't a problem since WheelLog connects instantly to my V8 and doesn't reset WheelLog's trip data when I switch the wheel off and on again) 

But with the retractable dog I was able to use a leash AND keep the kill switch activated. In terms of effectiveness, that experiment's still in beta testing though...I guess I'll have to wait and see if yesterday's success holds up to the test of time

[LanghamP]

I was showing off in front of these kids by doing pendulums when a toddler born of Satan hit the on/off button.

I would say don't ever use a leash unless you're around bodies of water, and maybe not even then. While I used a leash in the past, it just seems to make crashing more likely. Even an out of control wheel won't cause much injury to people; this can be demonstrated by playing "torpedo" with your padded up wheel. Run away wheels cause minimal damage to shins.

Getting hit by a car (ahem, driver) doing 55 in a 45 will probably kill someone yet we know where the ban hammer falls.

[travsformation]

8 hours ago, LanghamP said:

While I used a leash in the past, it just seems to make crashing more likely.

If used right, and taking the appropriate precautions, I don't think that's necessarily true

8 hours ago, LanghamP said:

I would say don't ever use a leash unless you're around bodies of water, and maybe not even then. [...] Even an out of control wheel won't cause much injury to people; this can be demonstrated by playing "torpedo" with your padded up wheel. Run away wheels cause minimal damage to shins.

I'm not sure I agree with that. I use the leash (especially as a learner) to prevent damage to the wheel, but above all, for the safety of others. I live at the top of the hill that initially slopes down at a close-to 40º angle, then goes down to 30º-ish and progressively flattens out. There's no sidewalk, so cars park on the side of the road and pedestrians walk along the road too. A runaway wheel on that kind of incline could cause serious damage to a person, toddler, parked car, or cause an accident (I have a nasty gash on my shin from my wheel and that was going about 5 km/h. The V8 has a few sharp edges on it...if it were to hit someone at 30 km/h at the right angle, it could cause some serious damage, especially if it's a small child or a senior citizen).

I understand and respect others' reasons not to use a leash--it's a personal choice--, but for me, the safety of others comes before my own. After all, I'm the one who's accepted the risk of riding a one-wheeled electric vehicle, not them, so any potential risk should be my responsibility, not theirs. Or to word it differently, if I have to choose between increasing MY risk of falling or increasing THEIR risk of being hit by my wheel, I choose increasing my risk.

I feel the same way about driving a car: It's my responsibility not to do anything that might endanger others.

 

8 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Getting hit by a car (ahem, driver) doing 55 in a 45 will probably kill someone

Yeah, I know...and you should see how people drive here in Spain...  

8 hours ago, LanghamP said:

yet we know where the ban hammer falls.

Off-topic: They recently passed legislation in Barcelona for EUCs: we're only aloud to ride in bike lanes and parks. Not on the road, not on the sidewalk (I guess they consider EUCs to be merely recreational vehicles...). This came after a massive boom of "See Barcelona by Segway" tours (dozens of groups of 20 people who'd never been on a Segway before touring the city, running over pedestrians and causing car accidents). But for the City Council, there's no distinction between a Segway and an EUC...

Nor do I see them applying further pressure on car & motorcycle drivers, and there's an average of 26 accidents a day...

Luckily, where I live, in the countryside, the local P.D. had never seen an EUC, and since they don't know what I'm allowed to do and what I'm not (and don't care anyway), they let me be 

[LanghamP]

@travsformation, I would say just walk the EUC if you were in danger of losing control. At 40 degrees I would think pedal strikes is virtually a certainty.

However, I've also learned to leave one foot on the EUC when losing control so the EUC is unbalanced and therefore falls over when you bail.

Let me be very clear; a wobbling out of control EUC instantly smooths itself out and continues onwards when the rider bails evenly, and therefore a leash is a good idea in those cases.

I believe both Segways and EUC belong more on the sidewalk than the road although the big 18 inchers can easily do both (another reason why I argue an 18 incher should be your first wheel). Both Segways and EUC are smaller than the width of a person's shoulders and both can stay in one place.

[travsformation]

44 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

I would say just walk the EUC if you were in danger of losing control.

What about unexpected circumstances? Say I'm confidently riding down a hill and a cat runs out in front of me, I fall and the wheel goes tumbling down the hill? I think one should always factor in the unexpected.

44 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

However, I've also learned to leave one foot on the EUC when losing control so the EUC is unbalanced and therefore falls over when you bail.

That's a great trip, thanks! It might take a good few handfuls of falls (doing that) for it to become a reflex though 

44 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

Let me be very clear; a wobbling out of control EUC instantly smooths itself out and continues onwards when the rider bails evenly, and therefore a leash is a good idea in those cases.

I don't think I'm confident enough at this point to take any risks of the wheel running away. And even further down the road....well, we'll see how I feel as my riding improves 

 

44 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

I believe both Segways and EUC belong more on the sidewalk than the road although the big 18 inchers can easily do both

Yeah, I say we should have a choice.  Bicycles get to ride on the road here in Spain, and I'm sick of driving behind them at 5 km/h on steep hills...I don't see why there should be more limitations for an EUC, which in those circumstances, would be much less disruptive to traffic. Riding on the road is a risk for the rider, but I think it should be his/her choice whether to take it or not

44 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

another reason why I argue an 18 incher should be your first wheel

The more I learn (and read), the more I start to see that my fear of 18" wheels was unfounded...I guess it'll have to be my second wheel 

[LanghamP]

@travsformation, my experience was that 95 to 98% of my EUC problems were drivers hitting me while they were coasting through a right turn on red or getting enraged when I was in a crosswalk. 

[Chriull]

10 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

@travsformation, my experience was that 95 to 98% of my EUC problems were drivers hitting me while they were coasting through a right turn on red or getting enraged when I was in a crosswalk. 

Our politicians also just try to introduce the right turn on red A NGO/society for mobility mentioned that accidents with bycicle riders/pedestrians almost doubled when this was started in the US in the 70ties.

The only positive mentioning was the right on red turn for bycicles in the netherlands...

[LanghamP]

2 minutes ago, Chriull said:

Our politicians also just try to introduce the right turn on red A NGO/society for mobility mentioned that accidents with bycicle riders/pedestrians almost doubled when this was started in the US in the 70ties.

The only positive mentioning was the right on red turn for bycicles in the netherlands...

The right turn on red makes crosswalks inherently dangerous regardless of when you cross. With right on red there is no safe time to cross, and even worse is the appearance of the right to cross when no such safety is afforded. Drivers commonly either stop inside the crosswalk zone or blow through it, but either way a crosswalk zone is very dangerous because it's the one place on the road where you're guaranteed to be in conflict with a driver (that is making ROR) who is, half the time, looking in the exact opposite direction of where the pedestrian is (looking left for autos but the pedestrian is to the driver's right).

It's much safer to cross in the middle of the block although that's usually illegal.