z3n Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Soon, we won't even have to "learn" to ride our EUCs. Just hop on and glide as you wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Yes, I have a question: if it balances so well, why are they holding their arms out at full length like they are tight rope walkers, and concentrating harder than I do when trying not to fart in a crowded room? anyway, my Honda can do that; right up until I push it off the center stand. ? But seriously @z3n , what technology is on display here, and what is it supposed to improve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 1 hour ago, Smoother said: why are they holding their arms out at full length like they are tight rope walkers, I think that is simply "look no hands!" (A bit like the guy juggling with live hand grenades!) Seriously, it is very impressive and is, presumably, the step needed to have full self driving like a Tesla for motorbikes. The future just got a bit scarier;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HermanTheGerman Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 The bike can even follow you like a well trained dog (see from second 24 on): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Westland Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Wired magazine had an article on their self-balancing bike. BMW has a different method; and Lit motors has a really awesome little self-balancing 2-wheeler. Honda disengages the handlebars from the front forks at speeds below 3 mph, passing control of the front wheel to the computer; from your video, it looks like it significantly increases the rake and trail to provide stability. The bike senses lean angles and swings the wheel to either side, thousands of times per second, to counteract any tendency tip over. They borrowed the control tech from their Asimo robots. I don't ride motorbikes much any more (Chicago's potholes are no joke) but when I did, could go long distances no hands. Motorbikes are heavy; the front wheel has a lot of momentum, and bike kinematics are naturally self-stabilizing, so you don't need hands at all to steer. This is why race bikes have clip-ons, not handlebars. They are used not to steer or stabilize, but as gentle input controls to countersteer. On the track, you do a substantial amount of steering with your body position, which is the reason for the knee-puck down ... the technique comes from dirt biking where you steer with you butt as well as you hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 7 hours ago, Keith said: The future just got a bit scarier If you look at this in an objective way, human driving is far scarier than computer controlled driving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frode Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Self driving vehicles is much like having a computer playing chess for you instead of doing it self. It might be fun for a short while, but... Man must have challenges and sense of accomplishment, otherwise they begin to get bored., really bored... Why buy a Tesla if what you wanted was a taxi? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 9 hours ago, Chris Westland said: Wire magazine had an article on their self-balancing bike. BMW has a different method; and Lit motors has a really awesome little self-balancing 2-wheeler. Honda disengages the handlebars from the front forks at speeds below 3 mph, passing control of the front wheel to the computer. The bike senses lean angles and swings the wheel to either side, thousands of times per second, to counteract any tendency tip over. They borrowed the control tech from their Asimo robots. I don't ride motorbikes much any more (Chicago's potholes are no joke) but when I did, could go long distances no hands. Motorbikes are heavy; the front wheel has a lot of momentum, and bike kinematics are naturally self-stabilizing, so you don't need hands at all to steer. This is why race bikes have clip-ons, not handlebars. They are used not to steer or stabilize, but as gentle input controls to countersteer. On the track, you do a substantial amount of steering with you body position, which is the reason for the knee-puck down ... the technique comes from dirt biking where you steer with you butt as well as you hands. Awesome picture! Maximum effort! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abinder3 Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 No thank you for that on a motorcycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbfrese Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Here's one from 2012 that never made to maret (as far as I know). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z3n Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 On 1/6/2017 at 5:02 PM, Smoother said: Yes, I have a question: if it balances so well, why are they holding their arms out at full length like they are tight rope walkers, and concentrating harder than I do when trying not to fart in a crowded room? anyway, my Honda can do that; right up until I push it off the center stand. ? But seriously @z3n , what technology is on display here, and what is it supposed to improve? At first, I was trying to convince myself that they were learning to fly? One thing I found interesting is that this technology does the balancing by turning instead of the usual (we all already have seen and been aware of) leaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 8 minutes ago, z3n said: At first, I was trying to convince myself that they were learning to fly? One thing I found interesting is that this technology does the balancing by turning instead of the usual (we all already have seen and been aware of) leaning. Where have you seen balancing by leaning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z3n Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 4 minutes ago, Mono said: Where have you seen balancing by leaning? Such as this one If you get what I'm saying... 9 hours ago, dbfrese said: Here's one from 2012 that never made to maret (as far as I know). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 To my understand this uses rotating masses to keep balance, am I wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 On 06/01/2017 at 11:02 AM, Smoother said: what technology is on display here, and what is it supposed to improve? It seems to show that they can control the handlebar of a motorcycle automatically in a way that the bike keeps balance. I haven't seen this before. A motorbike which is less likely to fall on the side looks like an improvement to me. I also found it interesting that it can auto-balance much better than the average driver. I didn't known that we can build a motorbike which just stands still and is stable upright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z3n Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, Mono said: To my understand this uses rotating masses to keep balance, am I wrong? Yes rotating gyro actions which results as correction of leaning action. Making the vehicle steady by leaning. This is what I meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Westland Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 10 hours ago, abinder3 said: No thank you for that on a motorcycle. Best done on a track, IMHO ... I do it in corners (partly because it looks cool, partly it's good form). But the worry is that you catch your knee puck on the rumble strip, or in the street ... who knows what. The really cool riders put titanium screws in their knee pucks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Westland Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 The Lit C-1 has two counter rotating gyros under the driver's seat (you can Youtube this to see the actual construction). It's a pretty old concept ... the Shilovski Gyrocar (picture) was commissioned and built in 1914 for a (soon to be deposed) Russian count. A tractor like gyro car with the two-motor gyro stabilization of the Lit C-1 was built by Louis Brennan in 1927, and Ford built a George Jetson style gyro car in the early 60s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Westland Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 33 minutes ago, Mono said: It seems to show that they can control the handlebar of a motorcycle automatically in a way that the bike keeps balance. I haven't seen this before. A motorbike which is less likely to fall on the side looks like an improvement to me. I also found it interesting that it can auto-balance much better than the average driver. I didn't known that we can build a motorbike which just stands still and is stable upright. The Honda system won't keep the bike stable when it is standing still (the Lit C-1 and BMW will) ... Honda needs a bit of forward motion for correction by steering. Personally, I think it is a bad idea ... if you need this help, you probably shouldn't ride a bike, or the better choice is to start with a small bike that you can drop and pick up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 35 minutes ago, Chris Westland said: The Honda system won't keep the bike stable when it is standing still surprisingly it does, as can also be seen in the OP. It works due to fork offset and trail. The robustness to disturbances is certainly limited but its still interesting to see that they can keep the bike upright at standstill at all, which an average rider cannot. This might also be the reason why they can change the angle of the fork, to make it simpler to balance at standstill. The reason why it works is that turning the handle bar to the left/right also changes the contact point of the front wheel with the ground to the left/right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Westland Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 14 hours ago, Mono said: surprisingly it does, as can also be seen in the OP. It works due to fork offset and trail. The robustness to disturbances is certainly limited but its still interesting to see that they can keep the bike upright at standstill at all, which an average rider cannot. This might also be the reason why they can change the angle of the fork, to make it simpler to balance at standstill. The reason why it works is that turning the handle bar to the left/right also changes the contact point of the front wheel with the ground to the left/right. The lengthening of the base when Honda's "stabilization" engages increases the rake and trail dramatically ... from the video, it looks like base extents a foot, rake may go from ~24 degrees to ~30+ degrees and trail maybe increases from 3 to 5+inches ... those are huge amounts and should add a lot of stabilization ... but a bike still needs to move left-right for the front wheel to stabilize... otherwise it's being stabilized by the riders weight, the same way we stabilize an EUC. I'm not sure how well this tech could transfer to EUCs ... the bike has a fulcrum which holds the front wheel for steering; in EUCs you don't have anything to hold the vertical axis in place (how could a motor force the EUC left or right?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 23 minutes ago, Chris Westland said: I can't figure out what mechanism it would use. It's described in my previous post. Turning the handle bar to the left/right changes the contact point of the front wheel with the ground to the left/right. It doesn't transfer to EUCs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Westland Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 13 hours ago, Mono said: It's described in my previous post. Turning the handle bar to the left/right changes the contact point of the front wheel with the ground to the left/right. It doesn't transfer to EUCs. Got it ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Chris Westland said: That doesn't do anything to stabilize the bike when it is standing still It looks like Honda made it work Moving the contact point on the ground is how unicycles and bicycles balance. Contrary to a common belief it is not gyro forces which keep a bicycle or motorbike or unicycle upright, at least not for long Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Westland Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 21 hours ago, Mono said: It looks like Honda made it work Moving the contact point on the ground is how unicycles and bicycles balance. Contrary to a common belief it is not gyro forces which keep a bicycle or motorbike or unicycle upright, at least not for long Two-wheelers stay up because of the gyro torque of the front wheel and the anchor provided by the frame/rear wheel. Wobbles are self-correcting if you go fast enough, and force the bike to lean in the direction opposite to the wobble. You wouldn't have this stability without the gyroscope forces. I'd seen that video, and it is overly glib. There are approximately 150 free parameters in a bikes kinematics, which is why you still have competition on frames and geometry. I get your point on the contact patch; more trail means the patch will put more turning force on the wheel, and maybe it is this that Honda is countering, but I'd like to know what is happening at speed = 0... it must be tilting back and forth around the CoG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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