Smoother Posted December 14, 2016 Share Posted December 14, 2016 I'd like to be able to pick my wheel up for kerbs, steps, etc., without switching it off and on. How would one wire a switch under the handle without burning something out, like some wheels have from the factory? KS14c 340wh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted December 17, 2016 Author Share Posted December 17, 2016 Nobody has an idea for this, really? How do they do it from the factory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 From the factory its a dumb button giving a signal to the processor. And the firmware stops the motor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted December 17, 2016 Author Share Posted December 17, 2016 Any idea how this dumb button is connected? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoe73 Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 It's not how the button is connected that matters, it is functionality programmed into the control board on some devices that is not there on others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted December 17, 2016 Author Share Posted December 17, 2016 So the functionality has to be in the software already. Is there another circuit the switch could interrupt without breaking something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 1 hour ago, Smoother said: Any idea how this dumb button is connected? just to a pin of the cpu, where the firmware gets an interupt or reads out the state of the button... 1 hour ago, Smoother said: So the functionality has to be in the software already. Yes. 1 hour ago, Smoother said: Is there another circuit the switch could interrupt without breaking something? one could interrupt directly the connection between the motor and the h-bridge - would be a high power switch which should be quite lossless (there is already too much heat produced in this area) and very reliable (another faceplant reason...) The other way would be to interupt the motor driver logic directly after the cpu - but there on would need to cut and reconnect the PCB traces (which could be somewhere in the middle of a multilayer PCB)... An easy but not the perfect way would be to just turn on/off the EUC with such a new switch ('intercept' with the on/off button logic) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted December 17, 2016 Author Share Posted December 17, 2016 52 minutes ago, Chriull said: An easy but not the perfect way would be to just turn on/off the EUC with such a new switch ('intercept' with the on/off button logic) So that sounds like the only realistic way. Not ideal because the machine still has to cycle off (short delay) and back on. I can however, see a small advantage to this method; if I relocate the actual factory switch to this location, then it's hidden out of sight from meddling a. Holes when it is left chained up outside when I'm shopping, etc. and if I place a keyed lock where the switch is currently ( which, ironically, would void the a. Hole argument above) I could secure it electrically, like every car and motorcycle. thanks @Chriull your knowledge and experience is greatly appreciated, again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 For safety reasons, any off switch placed at an EUC should only, ever, work if the wheel is not spinning. It seems difficult to achieve this functionality DIY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted December 17, 2016 Author Share Posted December 17, 2016 2 hours ago, Mono said: For safety reasons, any off switch placed at an EUC should only, ever, work if the wheel is not spinning. It seems difficult to achieve this functionality DIY. That's a good point. I'm visualising my leash accidentally triggering it, or a fault in the switch. Time to scrap that plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Just to chime in, placing a switch in the wires between the motor and the control board could work, but: -All the three phases must be cut, so you'd need a triple pole/single-throw switch -The switch need to handle very large continuous current (and spikes), so it will be physically large, like: That's an industrial 3-pole contactor switch, actually meant for 3-phase AC systems, 100A max. Probably about the size of your fist, or larger... The typical small switches you see on devices are probably rated for something like 3-15A, tops. -Even if it could be fitted, getting the switch in a "sensible" place on your wheel would mean a lot of rerouting of the wiring -Finally, should the switch fail and cut the power, there'd be no failsafes and you'd face plant immediately So yeah, it's not really practical in any way, and that's why the wheels that have the kill-switch under the handle actually tell the mainboard logics to cut the power to the motor (which probably has programmatic fail safes, like not cutting power if the motor is turning faster than 1km/h or such), instead of trying to cut the actual conduction paths to the motor... Ok, I don't actually know that they do it like that, but it makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 6 minutes ago, esaj said: Ok, I don't actually know that they do it like that You kind-of do know, it's just that how you came about knowing is different from having directly seen it in front of your eyes. That's how humanity comes to most of its knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 10 minutes ago, Mono said: You kind-of do know, it's just that how you came about knowing is different from having directly seen it in front of your eyes. That's how humanity comes to most of its knowledge. I call them "(more or less educated) best guesses", or drawing conclusions based on applying prior knowledge to a limited set of data at hand... or some such fancy shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 4 minutes ago, esaj said: I call them "(more or less educated) best guesses", or drawing conclusions based on applying prior knowledge to a limited set of data at hand... or some such fancy shit. yeah, educated guessing is also a powerful technique, but it seem still different from kind-of knowing without having seen it ourselves, well, there is a continuous scale I guess educatedly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 22 minutes ago, esaj said: the wheels that have the kill-switch under the handle actually tell the mainboard logics to cut the power to the motor (which probably has programmatic fail safes, like not cutting power if the motor is turning faster than 1km/h or such), If the mainboard can be programmed that way, is there not a way to increase power like when you buy a chip to make your car go faster? Who knows what these wheels are really capable of? It's probably mostly in the programming. I bet if I could put a Gotway mainboard in my NB1, it would behave like a Gotway, only with less battery power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 8 minutes ago, steve454 said: If the mainboard can be programmed that way, is there not a way to increase power like when you buy a chip to make your car go faster? Who knows what these wheels are really capable of? It's probably mostly in the programming. If you've followed the firmware-thread here, you've probably noticed that it's not that simple to write custom firmware for self-balanced vehicles, especially as complicated as the current ones. There are more people tinkering with the car chips, plus the electronic control of a combustion engine is probably much simpler(?), and making those "power chips" or whatever for cars could be basically more like finding correct settings for the things that the chips control (fuel injection, spark timings... hell, I don't know much about cars)... Also, "gas" (fuel, petrol, whatever you call it) has tons more energy than lithium batteries, something like >10000Wh per liter (~33000Wh per gallon)... but it goes to "apples vs. oranges" very quickly, trying to compare combustion engine with electric motor. Quote I bet if I could put a Gotway mainboard in my NB1, it would behave like a Gotway, only with less battery power. If it works with the motor, then yes. It could probably run the motor, but whether it would run smoothly is another thing, plus the balance might be severely off. Precise control of a 3-phase electric motor isn't that simple, I've learned... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 8 minutes ago, steve454 said: If the mainboard can be programmed that way, is there not a way to increase power like when you buy a chip to make your car go faster? Who knows what these wheels are really capable of? It's probably mostly in the programming. I bet if I could put a Gotway mainboard in my NB1, it would behave like a Gotway, only with less battery power. My random guess would be that a relevant amount of the programming is dedicated to protecting components from being fried, so if you skip those then yes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbera Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 On 14/12/2016 at 3:57 PM, Smoother said: I'd like to be able to pick my wheel up for kerbs, steps, etc., without switching it off and on. You could avoid all this complicated switch business by just learning to pick up your wheel at exactly the center of gravity so it doesn't spin. It took me 3 days to refine my technique, and now I can pick up my MS3 and move it over kerbs and up steps while keeping the wheel stationary, and the motor on, every time. Seems to me like it's the least hassle way of getting what you want... CBR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 9 hours ago, Cerbera said: You could avoid all this complicated switch business by just learning to pick up your wheel at exactly the center of gravity so it doesn't spin. It took me 3 days to refine my technique, and now I can pick up my MS3 and move it over kerbs and up steps while keeping the wheel stationary, and the motor on, every time. Seems to me like it's the least hassle way of getting what you want... CBR Good point. It might be more difficult with some wheels than with others. Can you do it without the acoustic feedback of the motor engaging? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbera Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 1 hour ago, Mono said: Good point. It might be more difficult with some wheels than with others. Can you do it without the acoustic feedback of the motor engaging? It is quite difficult on the MS3 specifically because its CoG is balanced slightly behind the center point of the handle, so you have to have quite strong wrists to keep it oriented correctly without spinning, while you are walking. I'm not sure what you mean by 'acoustic feedback', so can't answer that one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Just a thought.. why not just a simple safe mechanical means to temporarily lock the wheel in a static position when carrying it short distances? This is a new wedged style door stop that as deep treads and would easily slip between the front or rear fender and tire to lock the wheel in place during transport. The whole process would take 1-2 seconds to install and remove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbera Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 I worry that idea might lead to burn-outs of key components. If you physically stop the wheel turning, and then pick up your wheel not at the CoG, then won't it try to turn, find it can't, and then push harder and harder until something fails ? Ian from speedyfeet burned out his control board by the wheel trying to turn while deep fine sand was 'wedging' it stationary. Do you see where I'm going here ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted December 18, 2016 Author Share Posted December 18, 2016 Lol. I've opened a can of worms here. ? Picking it up perfectly balanced to prevent spin. Yeah I can see that. But when carrying it up a flight of stairs that become more difficult to maintain. Door stop; kinda missing the point. I want to carry it quickly up or down some stairs, or into a roped off car park, etc and hop back on, all while switched on. The door stop will either shoot out or get impossibly wedged, or crack the case, or all three. ? @Mono S concerns are valid, but I've thought some more about it and realised that the factory switch needs to be pressed enough to recess it below the cylinder it sits in, therefore, I cannot accidentally trigger it with my leash. HOWEVER. fumbling under the handle to push the (relocated) factory switch is probably more work than just pressing it in the factory location, as one has to find the ( unseen) button with a finger tip, push and hold for 1second, then readjust grip to carry the wheel; so moving it would only solve the problem of the meddling a. Hole turning it on when wheel was unattended. Still that's a benefit, just not sure if it's worth all the hassle. i vote for interrupting handle switches on all new EUC designs. Who's with me? ( embarrassing silence, crickets chirping) oh and real keys to turn them off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbera Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 I am really failing to see what is so arduous about turning your wheel off via the power button Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 24 minutes ago, Cerbera said: It is quite difficult on the MS3 specifically because its CoG is balanced slightly behind the center point of the handle, so you have to have quite strong wrists to keep it oriented correctly without spinning, while you are walking. I'm not sure what you mean by 'acoustic feedback', so can't answer that one... OK, let me put it differently: how do you know whether/when the wheel is not in the right position? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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