Frode Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Hi, I am new to this forum, and also to EUC's (since 2 weeks). OK, so I've had my first face plant. I'm OK, just a sore lip and nose. The KS 16 however is not so OK. The trip total was about 35 km. It happened in a pretty steep paved uphill at medium speed (maybe 20 degrees @ 10-15 km/h), not trying to accelerate, just keep the speed. My 2 hypotheses was that either the KS 16 forced a shutdown because of low battery (it was in the end of a trip with 4 dots left of the 9 about 2 km before this happened) or a blown fuse. It did not respond when I tried to turn it on, but the battery charger would apparently charge the batteries and it eventually showed green. After searching this forum I found others had similar symptoms when the main board fuse was blown, so I opened it up and checked the fuse. It was blown. I changed it, and it will no turn on. I decided to take a picture of the main board to see if I could find any other signs, and as the attached picture clearly shows, there is a resistor that has had an overload of current. So what is this? What will happen if it fails? Have anybody had this happen before? (for orientation: the fuse is above the upper right corner in the picture, so this resistor sits at the same edge of the main board as the fuse) Regards, Frode FYI: I'm living in Norway, so please be patient if I do not respond immediately. It is 2 in the middle of the night here now. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Interesting, never noticed that the KS16 has a through-hole power resistor in the board. What's it for, I cannot tell, but judging from the size (which is a bit hard as I can't really tell the scale, just trying to compare my 0.5-3W through-hole power resistors to an XT60 seen in the picture), it's likely something like 2W or 3W. Looks like ordinary metal film. If you have a (proper ) soldering iron and a solder sucker and/or some desoldering wick (or one of those fancy stations that actually can suck tin out through the tip ), replacing that shouldn't be too hard, but be careful not to overheat any nearby components. Of course you need to know the value (maybe someone can measure it with the wheel off / batteries disconnected just in case, or read out the color rings to know the value). Using larger wattage resistor than the original shouldn't hurt, so going with a 3W one might be a good move, but if it's 2W, the 3W ones are slightly larger. As the legs can be bent, that shouldn't still pose a problem on getting it there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmethvin Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 You mentioned it failed on a steep uphill. Were you going uphill for a long distance? I wonder if this might be a "normal" current draw for the situation but the fuse failed because it wasn't really a 40 amp rated fuse. If you pull that burnt resistor, is it burnt open or does it actually still read a resistance? They seem to have changed the board layout since the earlier teardown thread with photos below? You can try to read the resistor value there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxLinux Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Sounds like King Song didn't do as much testing as they should have. This tendency to blow fuses should have been discovered and fixed before the design was finalized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xima Lhotz Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Sorry to hear that it broke. Here is a nice page to read resistor values. http://www.digikey.com/en/resources/conversion-calculators/conversion-calculator-resistor-color-code-5-band If I read the pictures form the teardown correct the color is: red, black, black, silver, brown = 2ohm 1%. (Looking at your picture it looks like brown as the first ring and that will give you a 1 ohm resistor.) But pictures can sometimes distort colors so get a second opinion :-) What is missing though is the wattage of the resistor. If you will replace the resistor then going with a higher wattage is a good idea as @esaj said if this is the result of the design flaw and not something else they made the resistor burn. I hope nothing else got fried when the resistor died. Have you explained this to you reseller? Will you get a new board? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 If you don't mind, could you tell us how much you weigh? A 20 degree is pretty steep. It would be nice if the KingSong app had some logging capabilities similar to a flight recorder to help document the events (speed, current, temperature, etc) during a ride. If a rider reports a problem the data could be uploaded to the KingSong server for analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 ??? i would only Go for "Self soldiering" if You Do Not have an proper distributor.... if you have: Go for him, perhaps it's better to install a New Board! What You Are Telling us about how it happens...it Is Not normal that fuse AND something else blowed....my 2 Cents... also The Self soldering Can perhaps become difficult As normally the complete Board Is "siliconed" for Protection.:.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 6 hours ago, Frode said: ... It did not respond when I tried to turn it on, but the battery charger would apparently charge the batteries and it eventually showed green. After searching this forum I found others had similar symptoms when the main board fuse was blown, so I opened it up and checked the fuse. The fuse is at the discharge side of the batteries/input side of the board - so also with a blown fuse one can always charge the batteries. 6 hours ago, Frode said: It was blown. I changed it, and it will no turn on. Just to be sure - you inspected your new fuse if it is still functional? 6 hours ago, Frode said: I decided to take a picture of the main board to see if I could find any other signs, and as the attached picture clearly shows, there is a resistor that has had an overload of current. So what is this? What will happen if it fails? According to @Chris the resistor should be somehow related to some/?the logic? power supply (?+5V ?). So if this resistor is "dead" you could have no supply voltage and so this could be the reason you cannot turn the wheel on anymore with the new fuse? Did you check the big capacitor (?80V?, 2200uF) glued to the fan on the opposite side of the PCB? @Chrisstated quite some times: You should check if the legs of this capacitor are still undamaged - they are hidden under quite some isolation material, so pure visual inspection is not sufficient! Be carefull with the capacitor legs, since he could hold still quite some charge! Your "burned" resistor could be a secondary issue trigggered by a broken capacitor leg - or it's something completely different in your case... But also if your capacitor with his legs is still intact you should follow this advice and firmly glue the capacitor! 1 hour ago, Xima Lhotz said: Here is a nice page to read resistor values. http://www.digikey.com/en/resources/conversion-calculators/conversion-calculator-resistor-color-code-5-band If I read the pictures form the teardown correct the color is: red, black, black, silver, brown = 2ohm 1%. (Looking at your picture it looks like brown as the first ring and that will give you a 1 ohm resistor.) But pictures can sometimes distort colors so get a second opinion :-) On my KS16 board the color rings are red, black, black, gold and then with some spacing brown -> according to your link 20 Ohm +/- 1%. I also measured it with an Ohm meter and it showed 22 Ohm - well within the tolerance (i know that does not have to mean anything, since i do not know the schmatics. But it is a hint....) If @Frodehas an Ohm meter he could also try to measure the resistance (since this seems to work - !but to be sure with the fuse removed!) and so there's a clue if the resistor just looks very ugly or it could be a/the cause... 1 hour ago, Xima Lhotz said: What is missing though is the wattage of the resistor. If you will replace the resistor then going with a higher wattage is a good idea as @esaj said if this is the result of the design flaw and not something else they made the resistor burn. Replacing this resistor "professional" is imho quite out of reach: What's not to be seen on his photo is that there is the heatsink plate just below the PCB (in parallel with the pcb). So for replacing this resistor one should remove the heatsinkplate, which i would not really recommend from what i've seen. (For removing the heatsink plate one would have to desolder the 3*6=18 Mosfet legs from the PCB, or bend the mosfet legs and risk breaking them...;( ) The "best" chance to replace the resisor is to cut the legs as close at the body as possible (leaving as much wire as possible at the PCB) and solder the new resistor legs to the old ones. But this is imho not a real recommendable/professional replacement method? 2 hours ago, Xima Lhotz said: Have you explained this to you reseller? Will you get a new board? I'd assume that will be @Frode's best (or only) chance. Since he cannot turn on the wheel anymore with the new fuse this could easily be something more serious then just the resistor. Maybe it's worth a try to replace it with this "botchy method" mentioned above and look what happens... (!But as safety measure remove the fuse first - one does not want to risk the KS16 starting up and beginning to drive while soldering around the PCB...!) 4 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: i would only Go for "Self soldiering" if You Do Not have an proper distributor.... Imho a very good recommendation! But also without a proper distributor i would contact some distributor and buy a new board - i'd assume the european distributors can and will help @Frodewith that. Or maybe also KS directly (in combination with some distributor)? It would be too much risk (at least for me) to drive 30km/h again with a board one does not know if it will work correctly... 4 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: if you have: Go for him, perhaps it's better to install a New Board! What You Are Telling us about how it happens...it Is Not normal that fuse AND something else blowed....my 2 Cents... Theoretically in a perfect world. But with more complicated circuits it is quite possible that it just acts as a safety measure to prevent more damage. And also unlikely but possible anytime quite any component could fail and cause a short circuit... For instance if this resistor really is for the logic power supply and if this resistor really is dead there could be the situation that the mosfets have gone berserk and blown up the fuse. This maybe could have led to "insulted" mosfets which maybe could die sometime lateron while driving on a nicely paved road at max speed... One could make seperate fuses for the different power supplies, but this on the other side could also just lead to more faceplant possibilities... ;( As far as i have understood also the mentioned capacitor problem can lead to a blown fuse. 4 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: also The Self soldering Can perhaps become difficult As normally the complete Board Is "siliconed" for Protection.:.. +1! PS.: An addition to the capacitor leg problems of the KS16. Before my fuse burned (in because of some higher load in combination of a broken capacitor leg?) there was a noticable change of the balancing of the wheel: I normally drive in players mode (the stiffest mode) and above a certain speed the KS16 is perfectly stiff (no noticeable wobbling at the pedals). With the presumably broken capacitor leg i noticed some kind of "delayed balancing" - so once i changed my weight forward/backward for accelerating/breaking the pedal "gave some way" before it balanced again. The first time i noticed this, i thought this was in because of the already weak batteries. But after recharging it was exactly the same and at the next hill the KS16 strangely got slower and slower until the fuse blew up. So a big difference to normal behaviour -> if someone notices this drive very carefull (or better stop driving) and inspect the board! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frode Posted July 22, 2016 Author Share Posted July 22, 2016 Hi everyone. Thank you very much. I am a little out of time right now, but will answer a couple of the questions. The KS 16 works after replacing the fuse. I have been on it, but only for 5 minutes and only slow speed. Just to test if it works. It seems to be OK and there is no difference driving it as far as I can feel (under the mentioned conditions). My weight is about 117 kg/258 lbs. Yes I know, I'm slightly heavy ( 8-D ), though still below the specs of the wheel. And I have not been doing any jumping or such. It is only 2 weeks since I got it (and I have never tried an EUC before). Before this event I had been rolling about 2 x 7,5 km on mostly god gravel road and som kilometers on tarmac (wheel cooled down for hours in mid of the trip) The distance from bottom of the hill to the top I guess is about 20-30 meters. My face plant (nice word 8-) ) happened maybe at two thirds towards the top. I think the resistor still works. It is not that much burnt (no ashes, but it has been very hot). I am not sure if the resistor burnt on the same event. I have been up and down that hill tens of times, and another similar one as well, they are part of a roller ski track. Hope this answered most questions. If there are any overlooked ones, I will be back in some hours. Thank you. Cheers, Frode Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frode Posted July 22, 2016 Author Share Posted July 22, 2016 Correcting a misspell which might be of importance. I said: " It was blown. I changed it, and it will no turn on." What I meant to say was " It was blown. I changed it, and it will now turn on." ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 2 hours ago, Frode said: Hi everyone. Thank you very much. I am a little out of time right now, but will answer a couple of the questions. The KS 16 works after replacing the fuse. I have been on it, but only for 5 minutes and only slow speed. Just to test if it works. It seems to be OK and there is no difference driving it as far as I can feel (under the mentioned conditions). My weight is about 117 kg/258 lbs. Yes I know, I'm slightly heavy ( 8-D ), though still below the specs of the wheel. And I have not been doing any jumping or such. It is only 2 weeks since I got it (and I have never tried an EUC before). Before this event I had been rolling about 2 x 7,5 km on mostly god gravel road and som kilometers on tarmac (wheel cooled down for hours in mid of the trip) The distance from bottom of the hill to the top I guess is about 20-30 meters. My face plant (nice word 8-) ) happened maybe at two thirds towards the top. I think the resistor still works. It is not that much burnt (no ashes, but it has been very hot). I am not sure if the resistor burnt on the same event. I have been up and down that hill tens of times, and another similar one as well, they are part of a roller ski track. Hope this answered most questions. If there are any overlooked ones, I will be back in some hours. Thank you. Cheers, Frode hello and welcome to the forum! Ok, with your weigth, the hard uphill, the low batterie....i now can understand why the wheel give up ;-) 4 lights are not like 40 %...Take a look in the instructions....you should not try max speed or steep inclines on such a low batterie level...even with your weight, you hav e to be more carefull aboout this. yes, the KS16 is (as i know) with specs of up to 120 kg...but sorry, all those nice marketing like 30kmh and a high degree climbing....are not ment for such heavy people...i am also 100kg...i know what i am speaking about :-) to the burnt resistor: i would be very, very careful about it!!! that the fuse blows is no good sign at all...this should only happen in a case to prevent the board from being destroyed...but should not happen because of the hill... the wheel normally has some ways to warn you..beeping/caution overpower etc etc...but yours blowed the fuse?! i personally would go with my distributor and change the board....something is/was wrong and near to destroy the board.... take care! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frode Posted July 22, 2016 Author Share Posted July 22, 2016 16 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: with your weigth, the hard uphill, the low batterie....i now can understand why the wheel give up ;-) Yeah, I think I get your point. 18 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: 4 lights are not like 40 %...Take a look in the instructions....you should not try max speed or steep inclines on such a low batterie level...even with your weight, you hav e to be more carefull aboout this. yes, the KS16 is (as i know) with specs of up to 120 kg...but sorry, all those nice marketing like 30kmh and a high degree climbing....are not ment for such heavy people...i am also 100kg...i know what i am speaking about :-) Lessons learned. I learn pretty fast, sometimes the hard way (when I assume it's safe with respect to life and health). What really surprises me is that it actually burns a fuse instead of denying to move up that hill at that speed . That was totally unexpected. There was no warning (I have turned of that embarrassing "Hello Kingsong" announcement though. Would there have been some voice warning if I hadn't done that? 49 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: i personally would go with my distributor and change the board....something is/was wrong and near to destroy the board.... I have sent the reseller an email. We'll see what he says. _________________________________ Nah, this is not going to stop me. This is just too fun. Much too fun! I instantly knew I had to have such a wheel the first time I saw it. But: 51 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: take care! Yess, I will! And thank you for your reply. Cheers, Frode Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Yeah, its unbelievable Fun... :-) i know also! broken rips...and deep wounds also could not stop me!! but really: go check this burnt resistor.... and like you said..."normally" the wheel would have stated with beeps that you overpowed it...even with voices off! there should have been definitly a warning whatever off a kind... that the fuse (and a resistor "nearly") blows...is a bad sign! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checho Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 21 hours ago, Frode said: Yeah, I think I get your point. Lessons learned. I learn pretty fast, sometimes the hard way (when I assume it's safe with respect to life and health). What really surprises me is that it actually burns a fuse instead of denying to move up that hill at that speed . That was totally unexpected. There was no warning (I have turned of that embarrassing "Hello Kingsong" announcement though. Would there have been some voice warning if I hadn't done that? I have sent the reseller an email. We'll see what he says. _________________________________ Nah, this is not going to stop me. This is just too fun. Much too fun! I instantly knew I had to have such a wheel the first time I saw it. But: Yess, I will! And thank you for your reply. Cheers, Frode Frode did you check the fuse to make sure it is rated at 40A, on the top of the fuse their should be a label. It should say "40A", if the fuse has a lower rating that would explain why it burnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmethvin Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 11 minutes ago, checho said: Frode did you check the fuse to make sure it is rated at 40A, on the top of the fuse their should be a label. It should say "40A", if the fuse has a lower rating that would explain why it burnt. Those blade fuses follow a color code too. If it is the rose/pink color it is probably 40 amps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frode Posted July 23, 2016 Author Share Posted July 23, 2016 Yes, the fuse is labeled "40" and it is pink. However, it is a "mini" fuse, not the "midi" fuse that dmethvin's pitcture shows. Her is an image of the fuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmethvin Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Interesting that they use 40 amp Mini fuses, the Littelfuse design they cloned the form factor from does not support 40 amp even in their 58-volt series. http://www.littelfuse.com/products/fuses/automotive-passenger-car/blade-fuses.aspx There are vendors selling 40 amp in that form factor but with a purple color, and the one review it has is not good. https://www.amazon.com/30pcs-Auto-Purple-Blade-Fuses/dp/B00EZDGJ3A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frode Posted July 23, 2016 Author Share Posted July 23, 2016 31 minutes ago, dmethvin said: There are vendors selling 40 amp in that form factor but with a purple color, and the one review it has is not good. https://www.amazon.com/30pcs-Auto-Purple-Blade-Fuses/dp/B00EZDGJ3A Yes, I have been wondering a bit why there are so few mini fuses that are rated above 30 amp. The only one I have found is in fact the one you link to (I have ordered a pack) besides the one that came with the KS 16. I find it even more strange that it seems to be more than enough space for a larger sized fuse on the main board. Also, in my opinion the fuse should have been accessible from the outside. When the wheel comes with a spare fuse, it must be because the owner is supposed to change it if it blows, or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxLinux Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 31 minutes ago, Frode said: When the wheel comes with a spare fuse, it must be because the owner is supposed to change it if it blows, or not? Why does this wheel need a fuse when most wheels don't? Especially when apparently it's not unusual for this fuse to blow? Seems like this was a bad design decision by KS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 44 minutes ago, Frode said: . When the wheel comes with a spare fuse, Spare fuses does not sound good on a one wheel vehicle. Unless it blows at a slow miles per hour because of overpowering the wheel. Then it could save the motherboard and the rider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-one-lot-MF-RX135-FUSE-72V-40A-PTC-Reset-Resettable-Polyfuse-Polyswitch-Qty-10/1603987923.html (not suitable for this use) No idea how big those are in real life, I have some 72V / 2.2A PTC-fuses, and they're like 2cm in diameter (about 4/5ths of an inch). NOTE: Should you choose to use a PTC-fuse, better read through the datasheets and check triggering times/currents etc, and buy them from some "actual" electronics components reseller (like Farnell, Mouser, Digikey, TME, etc.) to get the correct kind. The above is just an example (wanted to see if there are actually PTCs for that large currents ), despite (possibly) working up to 72V, no idea how fast / slow it reacts etc. EDIT: Looking up the datasheet for that, it's actually 40A max, but the tripping current is around 2.7A... ouch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 24 minutes ago, MaxLinux said: Why does this wheel need a fuse when most wheels don't? Could be a design improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addwyn Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 @Frode, Be-carefull, some 40 A mini-fuses are not suitable for the KS16 : https://www.espritroue.fr/topic/668-kingsong-ks16b-vue-de-lintérieur/?do=findComment&comment=9915 This model may be OK: http://www.dhgate.com/store/product/wholesale-eg5809-10pcs-40a-40-amp-atm-mini/263689223.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frode Posted July 23, 2016 Author Share Posted July 23, 2016 To me a fuse is a last resort solution. I still do not understand why that wheel did let me force it up that slope without any warning. In this case, the only reason for a fuse being installed must be to protect the wheel itself (electronics or motor). It is not there to protect the rider - that is for sure. Better would have been to detect the overcurrent situation before the fuse burns, and giving a loud and unambiguous alarm in time for the rider to take action. Burning the fuse is like turning the wheel off. It won't balance any more. It was probably my big belly that saved my teeth. It served as an "airbag". There is a hole in my T-shirt in the middle of the stomach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 On 7/22/2016 at 11:01 AM, KingSong69 said: there should have been definitly a warning whatever off a kind... They have been! Don't drive drunk, with heart problems, too young, too old, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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