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TG-T3 Motor Stuck...help


Wade
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I got a TG-T3 and the wheel spins freely when it is not powered. When I turn it on it will have a fast jerk and wheel freezes stuck. 

I change the board with another and same problem, so it has to be the motor. I opened it up and found nothing binding. What else could it be.

 

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37 minutes ago, Wade said:

I got a TG-T3 and the wheel spins freely when it is not powered. When I turn it on it will have a fast jerk and wheel freezes stuck. 

I change the board with another and same problem, so it has to be the motor. I opened it up and found nothing binding. What else could it be.

As @Frankman suggests a fault to the hall sensor, possibly a broken wire would do it. So would one of the three motor phases either disconnected or short circuit. There are three thicker wires (usually blue, green and yellow) to the motor, these are the motor power wires and a bundle of thinner wires going to the Hall sensors, the sensors detect the present position of the coils relative to the magnets so that the correct coils get energised to move the wheel.

If you have a multimeter, check, on resistance across each pair of the three motor wires I.e. Blue-green, blue-yellow, Yellow- green (or whatever colour they are)  if there is any disconnection it should be obvious.

If the motor gets overheated, the insulation around the motor windings burns resulting in short circuits, unfortunately the windings are so low resistance anyway it may not be possible to see a short with a meter, if any one pair has a different resistance than the others it could be the problem, other than that you would only see it by opening the motor, any insulation damage should be obvious to the eye. 

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  • 1 month later...

Hi, Wade. I'm having the same problem that you have described. I'm also sure that it is -as Keith had mentioned- a short-circuit that it's blocking the EUC.

I have tried to open the hub (unscrewed everything) but it seems to have some kind of ... "glue"? . Ok, now that you have probably stop laughing ... would you be kind and explain to me how did you manage to open the hub? 

Thank you in advance.

Cheers,

 

Hilarion

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On 14. Mai 2016 at 9:04 AM, Wade said:

I got a TG-T3 and the wheel spins freely when it is not powered. When I turn it on it will have a fast jerk and wheel freezes stuck....

 

 

4 hours ago, Hilarion said:

Hi, Wade. I'm having the same problem that you have described.

 Just to be sure you don't open the hub unnecessarily - its really the exactly same problem as @Wade had? Free spinning when not powered and stuck once you turn it on?

there is also another quite commen case, where the wheel is stuck always while connected to the motherboard - these then would be burned mosfets and a dead mainboard with a presumably normal functioning motor.

Ps.: to get wade notificated you either have to quote a post from him or put start wirh a @ and choose his name from the appearing dropbox. Or does a thread starter always get a notification, once someone answers to his thread?

 

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5 hours ago, Hilarion said:

Hi, Wade. I'm having the same problem that you have described. I'm also sure that it is -as Keith had mentioned- a short-circuit that it's blocking the EUC.

I have tried to open the hub (unscrewed everything) but it seems to have some kind of ... "glue"? . Ok, now that you have probably stop laughing ... would you be kind and explain to me how did you manage to open the hub.

I said the above because @Wade stated he had already changed the control board. As @Chriull says a failed MOSFET on the control board is more likely to be the cause if the wheel sticks only when powered up. MOSFETs tend to fail short circuit (I.e. Permanently on) so energise one of the coils holding the magnets on the rim in one position.

Those magnets, which are very powerful, may be the reason you cannot remove the hub, however the clearance between the coils (stator) and magnets on the wheel rim is very small and it can be very difficult to refit the hub correctly without binding so it is best not to dismantle it unless absolutely necessary.

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3 hours ago, Keith said:

I said the above because @Wade stated he had already changed the control board. As @Chriull says a failed MOSFET on the control board is more likely to be the cause if the wheel sticks only when powered up. MOSFETs tend to fail short circuit (I.e. Permanently on) so energise one of the coils holding the magnets on the rim in one position.

If a mosfet or multiple mosfets are shorting the phases, the wheel doesn't even have to be turned on, just the motor phase-wires need to be connected.

 

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On 7/14/2016 at 3:19 AM, Chriull said:

 

 

 Just to be sure you don't open the hub unnecessarily - its really the exactly same problem as @Wade had? Free spinning when not powered and stuck once you turn it on?

there is also another quite commen case, where the wheel is stuck always while connected to the motherboard - these then would be burned mosfets and a dead mainboard with a presumably normal functioning motor.

Ps.: to get wade notificated you either have to quote a post from him or put start wirh a @ and choose his name from the appearing dropbox. Or does a thread starter always get a notification, once someone answers to his thread?

 

First of all, many thanks to @Chriull and to @Keith for the patience and the explanations. Back to the problem, I would like to make some additional comments: the behavior of my EUC was similar to the one described by @Wade but I think that what is causing the problem is neither due to a mainboard nor to a mosfet malfunction.

I managed to open the hub (what is inside is beautiful, by the way) -pls find some photos attached- and I found that one of the 5 wires that connects the mainboard to the circuit that controls the gyroscope is cut (excuse me again if I'm wrong). I also found that one of the "power wires" shows some signs of "erosion". 

I have tested continuity of each power wire from the mainboard to the motor with positive results. I did the same with the 5 additional wires and -of course- only 4 are ok. 

So, my plan is to replace the cut wire and -just in case- replace one of the 3 power wires. So far, I guess it shouldn't be a hassle but ... I am not quite sure how to test the circuit that provides the info to the electronic gyroscope (photo #4).

I would appreciate some guidance from now on.

Again, thank you in advance.

Cheers,

Hilarion

 

Ps: I add a very close photo of the circuit.

 

 

 

 

IMG_1138.PNG

IMG_1139.PNG

IMG_1147.JPG

Edited by Hilarion
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1 hour ago, Hilarion said:

First of all, many thanks to @Chriull and to @Keith for the patience and the explanations. Back to the problem, I would like to make some additional comments: the behavior of my EUC was similar to the one described by @Wade but I think that what is causing the problem is neither due to a mainboard nor to a mosfet malfunction.

If it's exactly like @Wade described (free spinning while turned off, stuck once turned on) it's not the mosfets/mainboard problem - was just a question to be sure before you open the hub.

1 hour ago, Hilarion said:

I managed to open the hub (what is inside is beautiful, by the way) -pls find some photos attached- and I found that one of the 5 wires that connects the mainboard to the circuit that controls the gyroscope is cut (excuse me again if I'm wrong). I also found that one of the "power wires" shows some signs of "erosion". 

I have tested continuity of each power wire from the mainboard to the motor with positive results. I did the same with the 5 additional wires and -of course- only 4 are ok. 

I'd replace all wires, since the motor is already open and more wires show signs of erosion. You could think of putting some additional protection to the cables, where they enter the hub. Some silicone/flexible plastic tube?

On the other side - you did not show the connection of the power wires to the motor coil wires. Maybe its better to leave this "connection" and just give some additional coating/protection to the power wires!?

The signal seem to be solid copper wires (not a flex/litz wire) - so maybe you can judge the "solidness" where the cables enter the hub. Once they are "about to break" one should feel the changed stiffness. Just once the wheel is completely assembled again these solid wires are not allowed to be "moving/"vibrating" around this corner into the hub" or they'll break again!

1 hour ago, Hilarion said:

So, my plan is to replace the cut wire and -just in case- replace one of the 3 power wires. So far, I guess it shouldn't be a hassle but ... I am not quite sure how to test the circuit that provides the info to the electronic gyroscope (photo #4).

There are no components on this PCB? What you named "electronic mushroom" looks like corrosion? Could also be some protective coating (together with corrosion?) It's hard to judge this from the foto. If its a coating you should get rid of this coating anyhow before soldering and then reapply it. (There where imho some discussions around here what ?sprays? to use for waterproof coating for a PCB....)

There seem to be no components on this PCB. It seems to be just a distribution from the 5 wires to 3 wire pairs. I'd assume you have on plus wire (supply voltage), one ground wire and 3 signal wires for the hall sensors. With normal coloring conventions supply voltage could be the red one going to the leftmost wire of the 3 triple blue wires, black as ground to each of the middle blue wires and blue, green and yellow as signal wire each one to one of the rightmost blue wires... (Attention: This is only poor speculation as a first possible hint to be verified!)

But since one of these wires is broken (the yellow one) you have to replace it anyhow and for resoldering you should loosen the PCB so you can solder without doing harm to the motor coils? Once the PCB is loose you can inspect both sides thoroughly.

Such an PCB (if my speculations are about true) should be no problem to be replaced, in case its in a real bad state.

 

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Some (maybe) important addition: The "gyroscope" PCB seems to be somehow fixed with some gluey stuff to prevent it to loosen/vibrate and there is also a protective sheed/fleece between the PCB and the coils. Thats important that you know how to restore this state if/after you removed this! The wires around the coils are protected by some insulating varnish/coating - one never ever is allowed to destroy this! Neither by the chemicals of a used "gluey stuff" or any other measures!

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@Hilarion, I would agree with @Chriull, however be very careful if you move that distribution circuit board as the sets of 3 wires terminate on the Hall effect transistors which look to be glued in. Those blue wires are probably the normal component leads so will break fairly easily.

The "mushrooms" do look to be corrosion, which may start to short the legs of the transistors so gentle cleaning may be a good idea - something like an old toothbrush and methylated spirit (or even vodka) will not harm anything else.

if the power wire,which is sure to be multi stranded wire has not got any strands broken, just wrap insulation around it, it may not be the easiest thing to replace.

 The Hall effect transistors tell the control board where the magnets on the rim currently are so that the coils get energised in the right order at the right time. One of those having broken will cause the fault you are seeing. providing you didn't leave it powered up for too long that sort of fault should not have damaged the control board.

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12 hours ago, Hilarion said:

IMG_1147.JPG

 

Corrosion and "mushrooms" (fungus?), I wonder if this is exactly what Hobby16 meant when he told me to clean up flux from the board after finishing:

On 12.6.2016 at 10:01 PM, esaj said:

I haven't much bothered on removing the flux from the boards, should I? Does it harm the traces, like corrode them?

Oh yes, after some years, your board may become a horror if the flux is not cleaned, because of corrosion and/or fungus. If connection are made with wires, the corrosion problem would be probably ok because there would not be enough flux to eat out the copper, but if you have fine PCB traces, the risk of contact problem would be too high to take.

Now some solder have "no clean" flux, it's probably ok but I find a cleaned board more... clean, aesthetically.

 

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Once again many thanks to @Chriull, @Keith and @esaj. Your comments are all very useful. Thank you again for sharing your knowledge.

The signal cables are not solid wires. It looks like they are, thought. But that´s just because how they have been welded (photo #1). 

I have decided to replace all 5 signal cables since -as @Chriull had mentioned- they indeed show signs of early erosion. I will also add a flexible tube to protect the cables from the shaft. 

I´m not quite sure about replacing the power wires. The reason why I'm hesitating is because it seems to me that power wires and motor coil wires are "copper welded". Sorry if that is not the correct term / word (in Spanish we call it "soldadura cuproaluminotermica", photo #2).

I have no possibility whatsoever to weld wires using that technique. So I guess I will replace the signal cables, keep the power wires ones and try to excel in a good tube/silicone protection!

To answer @Chriull question, there are no other components on the PCB. At least none that I have discovered... As you said, since I have to remove the PCB to weld the new cable, I guess I will be then in a better position to confirm that there are no other PCB components.

I must say that @esaj is right, I should have said "fungus" instead of "mushroom" but I guess everyone got the idea. I will clean the PCB before performing any soldering. 

@Keith pointed out something that I think is important and that I have really no answer yet. I just do not know if the mainboard got damage or if it is ok. I include some pics of it but I guess it will be hard to say by looking at those ... So if any of you can give me a set of instructions to test it, I will deeply appreciate.

Finally, I think it will take me a couple or more days to perform all the aforementioned tasks, as soon as I finish I will post the results.

Again, thank to you all. Cheers,

Hilarion

 

FullSizeRender.jpg

FullSizeRender.jpg

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@Hilarion, I can't see any obviously physically damaged components (including capacitors) on that board, damage would most likely be caused by overheating so there is a high probability it would be visible if it existed. 

I can think of no simple way to test the board other than actually reassembling everything and trying it.

some points I think you might want to note:

hardest thing is likely to be refitting the motor hubs covers. Note in your own pictures the very very small clearances between the stationary coils and the moving magnets on the rim. There is a real risk they will rub against each other if not perfectly aligned. You may find you need to use thin non-metallic spacers between the stator and magnets (perhaps thin card like on business cards) when fitting the first hub cover. Tighten that up well, remove the spacers and fit the second cover, carefully checking there is no rubbing before fully tightening.

you must make sure you do not mix up the three power wires or 5 signal wires, the motor may either reverse and spin uncontrollably, or get confused and jamb, just like your original fault, also do not power the wheel up without all three power wires connected or that may cause excess current through the other two connections.

the small PCB is unlikely to have any other components on it as it is just a distribution board for the Hall effect transistors - perhaps 3 small capacitors or resistors at most, but probably nothing.

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My bad - Keith's right.  I think that's just a potentiometer (?) that's glued next to a transistor.  Looking at the full sized photo it's a bit clearer.

Is it better as a general rule not to remove both motor covers at the same time and maybe mark the screw holes so they match up again when putting the cover back in place?  Do you use any silicone sealant or maybe plumber's putty around the edges to make it water tight?

Edited by HunkaHunkaBurningLove
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@Keith thank you again. Good tips for reassembling the motor hub covers. As soon as I replace the damaged signal cables I will follow them and see if I can manage to achieve the desire clearance between the stationary coils and the moving magnets.

@HunkaHunkaBurningLove thank you. I wish I had your advice before opening the hub. If I had known that rule I would have kept one of the hubs always on. I did, thought, mark the screw holes so they can match together when closing the hub again. One out of two, I guess... As for the silicone sealant, this is the first time I open the hubs, so I´ll take your advice and apply a little of it once the covers are in place.

Thank you very much for the time you have both spend answering my questions and sharing your knowledge. I really appreciate it. Will be back as soon as I manage to change the signal cables.

Cheers,

Hilarion.

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I did see that there is copper solder available online, but it melts at like 800 C so maybe a butane torch might be needed.  I haven't tried soldering copper wiring before.

I've never opened an EUC motor so I'm learning through your findings and process.  I have seen photos before, and the magnet to coil distance is incredibly small.  I hope you are able to get your covers on properly.  Maybe the screw holes and bearing hub will help guide the axle to its proper centre point.  Best of luck!

 

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  • 1 year later...
On 11/12/2017 at 10:30 AM, freetheoranges said:

Bump.

I'm in the same boat

Yes, but if you are in EXACTLY  the same boat we do not have anything further to add than has already been written above.

your Instagram video show the wheel lying on its side and beeping like mad when turned on. This would be the correct behaviour if nothing was wrong with it as no wheel is happy being layed on its side so tells us precisely nothing.

We would need more information to advise further.

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I can possibly add something.  On the KingSong and I assume Gotway motors, there is a 2.2mm lip on the inside of each motor cover.  This lip fits EXACTLY inside the wheel rim with no slop.  When these two motor covers are correctly seated in their respective recesses, the motor is automatically centered within the magnets.

I'm sure its an industry standard.  I can't see them laboriously shimming each motor as it comes down the line. Those magnets are freaking powerful.

 

Edited by Smoother
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On 12/11/2017 at 4:30 AM, freetheoranges said:

Bump.

I'm in the same boat. 

I'm going to give it a go in the morning. Probably a broken wire. 

It face planted me so hard. Like, ow. 

There is a sale on ninebots on amazon, the s1 for $299,  have you seen that they are practically giving ninebots away?

 

 

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That's okay, get the Ninebot One E+ with the 16" wheel instead for a little more.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Ninebot-Segway-One-E-E-Plus-Electric-Unicycle-One-Wheel-Perfect-Xmas-Gift/142528436426

Edit: Back up to $599 so $369 deal expired.

Edited by Hunka Hunka Burning Love
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