Kingsong King-F22 , the King of High Performance | 155.4V 20" 2738Wh 50S

[UniVehje]

2 hours ago, DavidB said:

I like how they one up each other. So this is 37S4P as opposed to Leaperkim 36S.

And that extra voltage is only useful for a couple of more km/h of free spin speed that nobody can utilize except on a highway. But marketing dictates that more is better.

[Julian-NZ]

5 hours ago, DavidB said:

I wish they would give the RBGs a miss.

I agree. I've never seen the point of flashy lights on a wheel that is going to live mostly off road on the tracks!
I definitely don't want a 'Disco Wheel' like the S19 

[BKW]

Personally, I like the idea that KS wants to create a more powerful and "serious-user" EUC. The last one they did like that was the S22? Lately, they've made their flashy, souped-up beach cruisers for tourists, but now it's time to make something for the more serious riders.... at least, that's what this wheel represents to me a bit, and I'm happy for it

Edit: actually, the motors on their recent EUCs are pretty beefy... just the outer designs are a bit meh on those

Edited April 21 by BKW

[Rawnei]

8 hours ago, Whalesmash said:

Ok, putting aside the fact that KS cannot make a high performance wheel, let along a wheel that can survive some decent jumps or drops (or even update firmware without bricking), are they really putting the shocks in the highest impact areas of an EUC? The top right and top left corners are almost always the hardest impact areas in a fall... 

Ok bro, S22 is the most jumped wheel there is, why do you think it broke for some people? Because they rode it harder than any other wheel.

Edited April 21 by Rawnei

[Rawnei]

5 hours ago, fbhb said:

This portion of a spec sheet was shared on the Telegram group yesterday in Chinese, I have translated the text to English below:

 

 

It doesn't make sense though none of those numbers are dividable by 4.2

[UniVehje]

18 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

It doesn't make sense though none of those numbers are dividable by 4.2

Most likely a typo. 37x4.2=155.4 and nominal 37x3.7=136.9

They probably print a few watts more for nominal wattage also. 

[meepmeepmayer]

Yep, 148 (4x37) cells, this is a 155.4V (typo in the spec sheet) wheel, this comes out exactly to 3.7V*5Ah*148 cells = 2738Wh. Weird, but why not. (Or rather: weird that they didn't go 168V right away!)

3 hours ago, Tawpie said:

Darn. Too heavy.

The 60kg refers to a possible rider, not the wheel weight. We don't know the weight of this wheel. Of course it won't be light.

(Please no unnecessary general weight discussion here, we all know the usual suspects' stances.)

[UniVehje]

Weight derailment split to another thread. Please stay on topic. This will become another megathread. Think before you leave unnecessary information to people searching relevant information on this upcoming wheel later. 

[Planet Iceland]

Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor

Veteran with the tanks and generals and now kingsong with military aircrafts

[meepmeepmayer]

I believe that's unintended - F for their new performance series, and 22 for the same tire size as the S22.

[YCC]

On 4/20/2024 at 8:03 PM, The Brahan Seer said:

The 4 stanchions on the corner could be a really good design of suspension if properly implemented. We do hear of folk finding the single stanchions on some wheels causing the alignment with the batteries to misalign when knocked. Will be very interesting to see what this turns out like. 

This is the first wheel with 2 by 2 oil spring suspension. I am very curious about how does it work?

 

[Voyager]

23 hours ago, UniVehje said:

Weight derailment split to another thread.

Please provide a link to that thread.

23 hours ago, UniVehje said:

Think before you leave unnecessary information

Condescending request, or disparaging statement?

[Funky]

41 minutes ago, Voyager said:

Please provide a link to that thread.

I deleted that tread.. <3

41 minutes ago, Voyager said:

Condescending request, or disparaging statement?

I don't really give a duck.. What or who says anything here.. (I'm just having fun.) Also not meant at you. @Voyager

[jimjam.nyc]

What a weird wheel. I don't know how I feel about it. Adding 2 more sets of moving, maintenance hungry parts to something with only 1 wheel and 1 rider seems counterproductive.

Are we really looking for a constant one up design to the last in every aspect? We already have it in Voltage (which makes some sense at least) but now we will see how many shock absorbers we can place on these things. 

I am the furthest thing from any sort of expert here, but considering the footprint of an EUC do we really need all 4 corners to have springs on them? It's a serious question, I am not trying to be snarky. I get that it will prevent bottoming out, etc. But will it be worth the extra weight, maintenance and parts?

 

 

 

[fbhb]

3 hours ago, jimjam.nyc said:

I am the furthest thing from any sort of expert here, but considering the footprint of an EUC do we really need all 4 corners to have springs on them?

That is the big question at the moment, and we are not 100% sure of exactly how King Song have implemented this set up.

One thing is for sure though (and this is being completely missed by many), they are NOT using 4x Fastace shocks on each corner, ONLY 2x diagonally opposed struts are actually Fastace shock absorbers with the other 2x diagonally opposed being what looks to be a slider tube of some sort (we are yet to see how exactly those 2x components work/how they are constructed/what is inside them).

It is an interesting approach and let's not forget, their first suspension wheel the S18 had 4x (cast iron) slider tubes for rigidity, so I sort of understand the thinking here!

Edited April 22 by fbhb

[jimjam.nyc]

3 hours ago, fbhb said:

That is the big question at the moment, and we are not 100% sure of exactly how King Song have implemented this set up.

One thing is for sure though (and this is being completely missed by many), they are NOT using 4x Fastace shocks on each corner, ONLY 2x diagonally opposed struts are actually Fastace shock absorbers with the other 2x diagonally opposed being what looks to be a slider tube of some sort (we are yet to see how exactly those 2x components work/how they are constructed/what is inside them).

It is an interesting approach and let's not forget, their first suspension wheel the S18 had 4x (cast iron) slider tubes for rigidity, so I sort of understand the thinking here!

Thanks for pointing this out. I really had no idea this was the design. It kind of makes a bit more sense to me now. Well at the very least it is always exciting to see a new wheel with a different approach hit the market. 

Should be a fun thread to keep an eye on! 

[Bustapalapno]

It is very exciting that 3/4 of the major manufacturers have competitors in the 20" performance segment! I'm excited to see what KingSong is bringing to the table. But even more-so than usual I would not recommend anyone preorder this wheel. 

• KingSong's Batch 1 issues are as bad, if not worse than anyone else's
• This suspension design is extremely suspect. No other vehicle I know of has more than 2 suspension elements per wheel, and this really just feels like extra complexity and opportunities for failure.
• I continue to be unimpressed by KingSong's wheel interface and app interfaces
• I am not optimistic about KingSong's performance tuning given their past efforts with the S22
• It's somehow out-uglied a LeaperKim wheel, and I say that as a Sherman-S rider. 

Maybe the ride feel will be fantastic and it will be a revelatory experience like the Commander Mini or Lynx have been for me. Maybe by some miracle it will get UL2859 certification which will make it VERY compelling. But we can't know these things until release. 

Hoping to see Inmotion's entrant into this race soon. 

[DavidB]

On 4/23/2024 at 3:43 AM, fbhb said:

It is an interesting approach and let's not forget, their first suspension wheel the S18 had 4x (cast iron) slider tubes for rigidity, so I sort of understand the thinking here!

I was thinking about this last night. On the S18 they could replace the 4 cast iron sliders plus shock and linkage with 4 forks ( or 2 forks+ 2 sliders) in the same location and that would give space for extra rear battery cells in the rear packs or reduced weight. Longitudinal ridgidity without the large motor attachment bracket and exposed suspension of the F-22

[Asphalt]

Props to Kingsong for pushing EUC innovation. I'm looking forward to seeing how this 4-suspension arm setup will work.

I suspect they're exploring this idea to expand upon the success for the S22 as a jumping wheel.

Four suspension arms should theoretically allow for a few improvements:

• Greater force capacity before bottoming out
• More fine-tuned suspension response
• Battery mass is not split and is closer to the centre-of-gravity, which should allow for more nimble control, particularly if you're trying to control the wheel while in the air
• Reduced twisting around the forks.
• Forks can be placed in a wider position to accommodate wider tires, without interfering with legs or forcing a super-wide stance.

Possible problems

• Higher susceptibility to locking up if a suspension arm is out of alignment
• Increased maintenance time and cost
• Increased weight
• Forks more susceptible to impact damage

It's been noted that the suspension arms are different, with matching pairs on the diagonals. I suspect that one pair is an air spring and the other pair are for compression and rebound damping, similar to downhill mountain bike suspension forks.

Time will tell if the F22 will be a commercial success, but I'm glad that EUC manufacturers are innovating in areas that aren't just speed and range.

[Stickysock]

I might have missed it, but has no one considered the static friction of 4 stanchions? 

Not to mention if the legs are ever off by even a small amount(oil, damper wear, air pressure), your ride feel will suffer greatly as it binds up through out the travel.

This already invalidates this wheel as being as comfy as leaperkim wheels. The small bump sensitivity of 4 stanchions will never compare to ANY 2 stanchion leaperkim wheel.

 

In terms of big jumps, a well designed coil+ linkage  would make more sense. 

Interested to see where it goes, but I am already skeptical, based on my MTB/Dirt Bike experience.

As an engineer, more moving parts in harsh enviroments, rarely makes for a good end user experience.

[The Brahan Seer]

1 hour ago, Stickysock said:

I might have missed it, but has no one considered the static friction of 4 stanchions? 

they use 4 in some motorcycles and all cars, it will obviously depend on how they implement everything.

1 hour ago, Stickysock said:

Not to mention if the legs are ever off by even a small amount(oil, damper wear, air pressure), your ride feel will suffer greatly as it binds up through out the travel.

you could argue this with any suspension choice. they are already saying that it might only use 2 as suspension/stanchions and 2 as stanchions. The S18 has 4 stanchions and a linkage and despite what you might hear they are fine, don't bind and has the added advantage of being more rigid. 5 point of contact verses your 2 on the Patton.

I have always had misgivings of the current wheel designs with 2 stanchions because being less rigid and more prone to twist which people have already complained about needed to re adjust the geometry. 

But with wheel manufactures being like they are, it would be a miracle if they could design a wheel that is both rigid with 4 stanchions and without binding issues.

I appreciate it might be harder to achieve, more prone to issues, but one thing engineers are good at is taking all these into consideration and adapting the design so they are not an issue. 

1 hour ago, Stickysock said:

As an engineer, more moving parts in harsh enviroments, rarely makes for a good end user experience.

Yet I bet modern mountain bikes have more or better implemented moving parts than old ones and result in a far superior ride. 

[Planemo]

11 hours ago, The Brahan Seer said:

Yet I bet modern mountain bikes have more or better implemented moving parts than old ones and result in a far superior ride. 

Tbf front ends haven't really changed much except for going up in stanchion size (standard is 38mm now) and more rigidity for the sliders/crown area. Of course the fight is keeping the weight down whilst increasing strength. But in terms of tech, a Fox 34 from 2016 and a Fox 38 in 2024 are pretty similar really. One things for sure, it proves the viability of the telescopic front fork for bicycle use.

Rear ends haven't changed much either tbh, with most of the effort being thrown at linkage ratio designs but an industry favourite such as the Specialized Levo is a pretty basic overall design. The best gains were from introducing a 4 bar system compared to 2 (which allows the wheel to largely travel in an upward direction instead of a curve) but all that involved was adding two ballraces into the system which isn't a huge technological feat/step.

The rear end of my bike isn't really complicated as you can see, and the same basic 4 bar design was being used some 20 years ago in the Giant Trance models. Not surprising really, it works amazingly well.

[The Brahan Seer]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

it proves the viability of the telescopic front fork for bicycle use.

I really hope that a four system set up using these will be the optimum for EUC's and then all manufactures can progress and make better wheels like MTB's can.

I am not a suspension engineer so its great to see innovation and manufactures trying different things, so we can find out.

If it is, then a Leaperkim made like this would be amazing!

 

[Stickysock]

22 hours ago, The Brahan Seer said:

they use 4 in some motorcycles and all cars, it will obviously depend on how they implement everything.

you could argue this with any suspension choice. they are already saying that it might only use 2 as suspension/stanchions and 2 as stanchions. The S18 has 4 stanchions and a linkage and despite what you might hear they are fine, don't bind and has the added advantage of being more rigid. 5 point of contact verses your 2 on the Patton.

I have always had misgivings of the current wheel designs with 2 stanchions because being less rigid and more prone to twist which people have already complained about needed to re adjust the geometry. 

But with wheel manufactures being like they are, it would be a miracle if they could design a wheel that is both rigid with 4 stanchions and without binding issues.

I appreciate it might be harder to achieve, more prone to issues, but one thing engineers are good at is taking all these into consideration and adapting the design so they are not an issue. 

Yet I bet modern mountain bikes have more or better implemented moving parts than old ones and result in a far superior ride. 

The applications in where 4 stanchions are used on a much heavier vehicle are not apples to apples, in addition motorcyles have much more travel to compensate for spring rate and compression.

This wheel does not. It will either ride very stiff, or bottom out easily. The small bump sensitivity will suffer on both sides. Hence not going to be a comfy ride.

Dirt bikes, Freestyle, and mountain bikes minus the cannondale lefty all use two stanchions for a reason. It works. If you need more rigidity, increase the diameter.

The s18 had its stanchions concurrent and adjacent(functioning as one leg), which leaves little to no room for bounding.

These suspension legs are on 4 corners of a rectangle. 

If there is any flex in the frame of the EUC from any impact, the corresponding corner will bind, reducing response, and increasing harshness.

 

***Just because we can do it, does not mean we should***

 

P.S I have hucked my Patton in skateparks, around bowls, berms and off camber dirt jump landings. The frame does not twist, it is solid as a rock. 

Motorcycle Forks DO twist, this is due to the leverage present on the fork legs vs the top crown. The longer the legs, the easier they twist.

Even then it takes a pretty solid crash to untrue modern suspension forks.

That will NOT be a problem with such short travel and a properly designed mounting setup on modern EUC. 

[Kingsong second hand eucs]

What color of F22 can be liked by most people? How about all black? I think this is more appropriate.