Fighting back...

[Cerbera]

Just watched another video of our crazy friends from NY batting it round the city, displaying their wondrous skills and balls of steel whilst simultaneously providing all the evidence lawmakers and authorities need to ban us outright, and this gave me an idea - hardly an original one, but one nonetheless, and I couldn't immediately find any existing examples of the sort of thing I mean, so...

What we need is for the EUC community to produce a widely circulated and available video, specifically for councils and other authorities, that counters this sort of behaviour, makes a solid and reasonable case for our existence, and demonstrates (ideally via a series of short, succinct clips) our wheels doing the sort of things they need to be shown doing, explains why limiting us by motor power is bullshit and shows loads of practical examples of narrated riding that demo why it is sometimes safest for us to be on the road, sometimes on the pavement, other times on cycle paths etc, and in pedestrian-heavy urban areas, and most importantly, that these things can be ridden safely and considerately and therefore should be granted their own vehicle category within wider PEVs, and what sort of laws and regulations are sensible, and which ones are not.

I just think if we, as a community, had a single, unrefutable, solid-as-you-like, nicely produced 3 min little video that we could send to every authority considering their future PEV laws, we might be able to do something to 'get in the door' and provide our own video before they go find all the crazy riding ones !

I have lots of ideas for what should be in it, but no time to write them all down now, so just starting a thread to make sure a) I don't forget, and b) to see if anyone else thinks this is a decent idea (also feel free to say if you think it's a total waste of time, or if these things already exist), and to just give us a places to discuss it further if anyone thinks it is...

Anyway - I'll just park that there then... and now I'm off for a ride on my wheel !

[Paradox]

8 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

I just think if we, as a community, had a single, unrefutable, solid-as-you-like, nicely produced 3 min little video that we could send to every authority considering their future PEV laws, we might be able to do something to 'get in the door' and provide our own video before they go find all the crazy riding ones !

A little longer than 3 minutes though.

[novazeus]

this is what i'm working on at the govt level. i appreciate any input from the community. 

[varamontelo]

You have a project that is interesting internationally, but the new laws will be national. You want to bring together the ideas of an international community to influence a single continent. How could a country on the other side of the globe propose the same laws? It's impossible. Small countries with three wheelers will laugh. A desert country will never have laws because there is no EUC. The problem is non-existent at the north and south pole. You can suggest and broadcast a video adapted to your region. Or you suggest a video to each national wheeler groups who should submit a project for each nation. If I don't understand your project, I apologize.

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

The first thing our green government would see in the video is how we are destroying mother nature by going off the predetermined paths. 

[varamontelo]

I will not trade government comparisons on this website because it is not allowed on the forum according to the charter. But we can describe and illustrate the ways of practicing EUC in different countries and the consequences of local laws. A video document resulting from a consultation of an international community would cause embarrassment for an authority somewhere and also an additional opportunity for another. There will surely be advantages for some and disadvantages for others. My conclusion is a question: do we need to stir everyone up ?

[bpong]

here is a suggestion that can easily be applied.

make copies of the offending videos, and keep them on some safe storage device.  record the full names of the riders who least represent what is good and great about our fav hobby.  include their full name, address(es) and if possible, contact numbers.  record any other information that may be important for future use.  record any close family contacts and their contact information as well.  document their offensive riding sessions and also document any laws and bylaws clearly broken in their riding videos.  take all this information and pass it on to all police stations, precincts, municipal governments and representatives, and lastly, the insurance companies and government representatives of the insurance industry.  all this information will only serve to single out these individuals and hopefully,  diminish the tarnished image of the majority of euc riders who follow the local bylaws and respectful use of the bike lanes and city streets.

there is no need to carry on and write angry thoughts about riders who chose to be idiots on their eucs, and ignore the safety of others... there are other more efficient ways to ensure our euc riding community and in a wider view, the pev community, to ensure those who abuse the activity and endanger the public,  will be in the focus of the majority of the euc riders.  the information gathered about them will benefit the law enforcement agencies and hopefully help persuade the insurance industry to focus on those riders who have a less than acceptable attitude towards the public and the use of public streets and bike lanes.

[varamontelo]

In some countries you cannot record without the consent of each person. The collection of information constitutes a set of files which is not authorized for an individual. We should gather without using a name, without a precise address, without identification. There is an image right which requires the signature of each individual if we are considering a video or photo file.

[Timwheel]

I am guilty myself of going a bit faster than allowed from time to time.

However, what I do is that I always make sure to let any pedestrian cross before me and to show them that I will stop and have control on that big thing under my feet. I go out of my way to show gestures of appreciation when someone lets me pass, I stop to help a cyclist putting his chain back on, I smile at kids crossing the road that look at me in awe, I chat at the redlight with cyclists, I show which direction I intend to go clearly, and I talk to as much people as I can about what I ride.

I think that we, individually, can make the biggest difference. Let's behave better than everyone else (also because it is really pleasant to be nice !) and show people that we are responsible, not a danger to them and that we take better care of them than some cyclists going 20 kph do.

[Dan Cobar]

10 hours ago, Timwheel said:

I am guilty myself of going a bit faster than allowed from time to time.

However, what I do is that I always make sure to let any pedestrian cross before me and to show them that I will stop and have control on that big thing under my feet. I go out of my way to show gestures of appreciation when someone lets me pass, I stop to help a cyclist putting his chain back on, I smile at kids crossing the road that look at me in awe, I chat at the redlight with cyclists, I show which direction I intend to go clearly, and I talk to as much people as I can about what I ride.

I think that we, individually, can make the biggest difference. Let's behave better than everyone else (also because it is really pleasant to be nice !) and show people that we are responsible, not a danger to them and that we take better care of them than some cyclists going 20 kph do.

I have to agree with everything you wrote.  It doesn't take much to leave a positive impression with those that we encounter as we ride.

[Funky]

10 hours ago, Timwheel said:

I am guilty myself of going a bit faster than allowed from time to time.

However, what I do is that I always make sure to let any pedestrian cross before me and to show them that I will stop and have control on that big thing under my feet. I go out of my way to show gestures of appreciation when someone lets me pass, I stop to help a cyclist putting his chain back on, I smile at kids crossing the road that look at me in awe, I chat at the redlight with cyclists, I show which direction I intend to go clearly, and I talk to as much people as I can about what I ride.

I think that we, individually, can make the biggest difference. Let's behave better than everyone else (also because it is really pleasant to be nice !) and show people that we are responsible, not a danger to them and that we take better care of them than some cyclists going 20 kph do.

I ride on sidewalks, time to time i go even 45km/h on straight empty paths. (We aren't allowed to ride on street with cars. And my town has no bike lanes. We share same paths pedestrians do and by law we are allowed to ride those paths going 25km/h.) But same time i slow down to walking speeds, when i pass some people from back, when they have not noticed me coming. Otherwise i'm going anywhere from 15-25km/h most times. I sometimes politely ask if i could pass them. They ofc move aside and let me pass. I always say thanks as i speed off.

Remove EUC from the picture, be cyclist, moped, car rider. You should act the same. It doesn't matter what you ride at all. Most people don't care what you are riding and so on. They mind their biasness and i mind my own biasness. Be responsible rider, slow down where it's needed, respect the pedestrians and everything will be fine.

I especially slow down around mothers with strollers. Or parents with smaller children or dogs at leash. But same time i go what ever speeds i want, if no-one is around and there is no blind areas, where someone can pop out any moment.

[Dan Cobar]

On 3/29/2024 at 2:16 PM, Funky said:

Remove EUC from the picture, be cyclist, moped, car rider. You should act the same. It doesn't matter what you ride at all.

^^^^  This exactly.  It's your behavior when riding, no matter what you are riding.

[Ronin Ryder]

in 2018, and already talking about bans:

Edited April 1 by Ronin Ryder

[litewave]

I think a better way to mitigate these videos from certain urban areas is to aggressively counter any proposals for regulation by isolating the problem to the culture in that area.

In other words, what happens in New York City, stays in New York City.

 

Edited April 1 by litewave

[winterwheel]

On 3/28/2024 at 8:37 PM, bpong said:

here is a suggestion that can easily be applied.

make copies of the offending videos, and keep them on some safe storage device.  record the full names of the riders who least represent what is good and great about our fav hobby.  include their full name, address(es) and if possible, contact numbers.  record any other information that may be important for future use.  record any close family contacts and their contact information as well.  document their offensive riding sessions and also document any laws and bylaws clearly broken in their riding videos.  take all this information and pass it on to all police stations, precincts, municipal governments and representatives, and lastly, the insurance companies and government representatives of the insurance industry.  all this information will only serve to single out these individuals and hopefully,  diminish the tarnished image of the majority of euc riders who follow the local bylaws and respectful use of the bike lanes and city streets.

there is no need to carry on and write angry thoughts about riders who chose to be idiots on their eucs, and ignore the safety of others... there are other more efficient ways to ensure our euc riding community and in a wider view, the pev community, to ensure those who abuse the activity and endanger the public,  will be in the focus of the majority of the euc riders.  the information gathered about them will benefit the law enforcement agencies and hopefully help persuade the insurance industry to focus on those riders who have a less than acceptable attitude towards the public and the use of public streets and bike lanes.

worst idea ever; really awful 

[rcgldr]

New York - as far as car drivers and most of the police are concerned, every rider on an EUC means one less car in traffic. As for the appearance of running red lights, much of downtown New York has Leading Pedestrian Interval (LPI) signals, where pedestrian signals allow pedestrians to cross before the car signals turn from red to green. This was expanded to include e-bikes, and the EUC riders chose to use the LPI signals also.

Edited April 8 by rcgldr

[bpong]

14 hours ago, winterwheel said:

worst idea ever; really awful 

remember that after we start paying for plates, registration, insurancen and perhaps an annual tax for having the 'privilege' of using the downtown city streets and bike lanes...

[bpong]

22 hours ago, litewave said:

I think a better way to mitigate these videos from certain urban areas is to aggressively counter any proposals for regulation by isolating the problem to the culture in that area.

In other words, what happens in New York City, stays in New York City.

 

if what the idiots in 'new york city' enable the rest of the lawmakers in other smaller cities and communities,  then its not just 'what happens in whatever...'  it does affect everyone else...

[CrabChampion]

On 3/28/2024 at 10:37 PM, bpong said:

take all this information and pass it on to all police stations, precincts, municipal governments and representatives, and lastly, the insurance companies and government representatives of the insurance industry.  all this information will only serve to single out these individuals and hopefully

This will do nothing but shoot ourselves in the foot by self snitching. You could be the most responsible rider in the world, but if you inform the authorities about bad EUC riding behaviour and they see you innocently riding your EUC 20kmh on the sidewalk guess what? You are on their shit list. Politicians love to blanket ban everything that is remotely problematic. They wont single out the problem riders, they'll just ban them outright. This is a terrible idea

[litewave]

1 hour ago, bpong said:

if what the idiots in 'new york city' enable the rest of the lawmakers in other smaller cities and communities,  then its not just 'what happens in whatever...'  it does affect everyone else...

Yeah, don't blame NYC for the idiot reactionary lawmakers in other cities/communities; those smaller places could otherwise care less about the place and its people. They are just looking for an easy target to build their credibility with their paranoid, outraged supporters.

We need to push back, not ride in fear. 

[Cerbera]

1 hour ago, CrabChampion said:

This will do nothing but shoot ourselves in the foot by self snitching. You could be the most responsible rider in the world, but if you inform the authorities about bad EUC riding behaviour and they see you innocently riding your EUC 20kmh on the sidewalk guess what? You are on their shit list. Politicians love to blanket ban everything that is remotely problematic. They wont single out the problem riders, they'll just ban them outright. This is a terrible idea

Yep, what he said; sorry @bpong   All I was proposing was a general video that represented us as a group, and showed what a competent rider is capable of on a typical wheel. It would show things like riding at pedestrian speed, demonstrate how quickly we can turn and stop, and ideally show lots of examples of it being ridden unproblematically in proximity to people and traffic. It should also show it being ridden fast and responsibly (in the right locations obviously) so that is shown to be (relatively) safe doing that too. It should explain why bigger motor power = bigger safety margin, and why we should not have laws based on power levels.

None of that involves naming or shaming any individual rider - it is simply something to point officials and any interested people we meet during our rides to, which shows us, as a group, in an initially good light, and makes the case for us having the same permissions and protections in law that cyclists and other PEV types 'enjoy', and to which we obviously should be entitled...

 

Edited April 2 by Cerbera

[CrabChampion]

5 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

It should explain why bigger motor power = bigger safety margin, and why we should not have laws based on power levels

Agreed. We should aim to educate our local politicians on the positive aspects of how these devices are useful and changed our lives. Show them the benefits instead of singling out the problematic riders. Showing problematic riders will make us look bad no matter what. 
 

As someone else mentioned on here, it shouldnt matter what you're riding. We have to be responsible and promote that image

[Cyberwolf]

46 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

All I was proposing was a general video that represented us as a group, and showed what a competent rider is capable of on a typical wheel. It would show things like riding at pedestrian speed, demonstrate how quickly we can turn and stop, and ideally show lots of examples of it being ridden unproblematically in proximity to people and traffic. It should also show it being ridden fast and responsibly (in the right locations obviously) so that is shown to be (relatively) safe doing that too. It should explain why bigger motor power = bigger safety margin, and why we should not have laws based on power levels.

I think the challenge with this approach is that in video form, it's possible for every viewer to come away with a slightly (at least) differing understaning and perspective of what was presented. 

This is unavoidable due to perception bias in verbal communications, differing attention-spans, etc.   Even the viewer's speaker/screen quality can have a 'blurring' effect, given how much of conveyed meaning through an audio/visual format exists beyond simple vocabulary.

I've been letting this simmer below the surface for a bit (most of our cognative processing power exists below the conscious threshold), and thinking that a fact-based framework/template can likely be prepared which is sufficiently succinct, viably specific, and legal-framework agnostic enough to be foundational for legislation in a variety of regions/govts.

 

ln other words - if you let the base language/stage be set by parties hostile or indifferent to your interests, then you have to play their game.  The key is to get in front of it and have a seat at the 'design/decision' (adult) table, or you're stuck sitting at the 'deal with it' (kids) table, and any pleading you might come up with is irrelevant and ineffectual.

Edited April 2 by Cyberwolf

[Funky]

2 hours ago, CrabChampion said:

This will do nothing but shoot ourselves in the foot by self snitching. You could be the most responsible rider in the world, but if you inform the authorities about bad EUC riding behaviour and they see you innocently riding your EUC 20kmh on the sidewalk guess what? You are on their shit list. Politicians love to blanket ban everything that is remotely problematic. They wont single out the problem riders, they'll just ban them outright. This is a terrible idea

What's wrong with riding 20kmh on sidewalks? In my country we are allowed to ride 25kmh with e-scooters.  (Even drunks/kids/junkies can rent and go 25kmh non-stop. People who never have ridden before.) We can't ride on street with cars..

I also won't lie, i have went 45kmh on said sidewalks.. But only on straight empty pathways, when no-one is around, without blind areas. Around people i slow down to walking speed, if there is need. I'm especially careful around people who have not noticed me coming from behind! Or around children. Otherwise i'm going 15-30kmh normally. I live in very non busy city.

Also ban won't stop people from using their already bought 1500-4000$ wheels. Don't make me laugh. Helps if you never see/encounter police. I personally don't see what's the big deal. I bought it and i will use it. No-one is gonna stop me. I will go what ever speeds i want and same time i'm mindful and slow down around people. (As mentioned before.)

 

Oh and i'm one of those who don't use gear on his daily 5km commute. So by nature i'm very careful rider.. Watching out for all the dangers, etc..

Edited April 2 by Funky

[CrabChampion]

10 hours ago, Funky said:

What's wrong with riding 20kmh on sidewalks? In my country we are allowed to ride 25kmh with e-scooters

Nothing is wrong with riding 20kmh on sidewalks. Im saying if you show your nearest police office people blasting 90kmh on roads, runnning reds, carving through cars and pedestrains, then everyone is painted bad. Including the innocent riders going respectfully on the sidewalk at low speed. Its not a good look overall and we shouldnt be putting focus on problem riders