Indefinitely prevented from riding

[Roadpower]

Sorry I have been gone a few months, actions have taken place which have had a significant impact on the desire to post and ability to ride.

The issue in a nutshell is the e-bike fires in NYC which I believe are almost exclusively commercial delivery vehicles. These fires have resulted in death and destruction. Being that these are commercial use case however does not matter as residential buildings like mine have threatened to cancel the rental lease if they can make a determination that you have an electric vehicle in the apartment.

Since this warning went out they have significantly increased (and modernized) the surveillance camera count on their property. I can not and will not endanger my lease as it is long standing and gives me a significant economic advantage. In other words they have a strong incentive to find cause and with the surveillance system modernization I believe that is their intention.

When it becomes possible I will look into what the legal possibilities are. Politically speaking this is a bad fight to pick, people are rightfully fearful of fires as I myself have railed about in the past, warning that fires would ultimately hurt us. As you can see that was a easy and accurate prediction.

Maybe in time safe battery tech will be on the market but for me it is not likely to matter unless that time is in the near future and it changes minds and policies.

 

Best wishes all

[dredwheel]

you selling your wheels? 

[mhpr262]

That sucks. The worst thing is that their actions are not even unjustified... 

[chanman]

Maybe something like the LFP packs that Begode tried once with the RS resolute, which are much less fire prone, will give you something to stand on? That said I doubt it'll be easy to get people to make the distinction, and the LFP packs didn't catch on in EUC and the resolute doesn't seem to be available anymore.

Edited April 13, 2023 by chanman

[Circuitmage]

That's a bummer. Maybe providing data on the risk factor would help? 

I don't know the exact numbers, but aren't they somewhere around 1%?

 

[Cerbera]

31 minutes ago, Circuitmage said:

I don't know the exact numbers, but aren't they somewhere around 1%?

Christ, I hope not - 1% fire rate could only be considered a catastrophic failure ! Even 0.1% would be unacceptable risk. 0.01% is still too many !! I would hope the rate is lower than ALL those figures !! 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Cerbera

[techyiam]

4 hours ago, chanman said:

Maybe something like the LFP packs that Begode tried once with the RS resolute, which are much less fire prone,

If there isn't anything better than LFP, perhaps PEV manufacturers and distributors/dealers can get together to make an organized effort to produce and sell pev's based on these LFP cells. And at the same time educate the public about these safer alternatives. The ads need to be professional and convincing. People like the ones in NYC who won't be able to bring in their current pev's into ther homes or other buildings soon would be much more willing to make the compromise. You get less range but you would still be able to ride a pev and store it indoors.

Edited April 13, 2023 by techyiam

[jimjam.nyc]

My building here in NYC had sent out a memo about PEVs and Batteries due to all of the fires. It was more informational than confrontational, but i am def concerned they may try to all out ban all PEVs. 

I dont know why there have been so many fires lately, but part of me thinks many of these batteries have been abused by these bikes being used in all weather conditions, constant fast charging on cheap chargers and over charging leaving batteries plugged in and charging all the time with cheap ass chargers.

Hopefully they go on the side of getting info out on battery care rather than banning. I would even be ok if I had to sign something, or even if we needed to get our batteries inspected and show responsible ownership, etc

Thankfully i have not heard of too many fires from wheels, but it is definately a concern in NYC that some buildings will ban some or all PEVs.

 

[mrelwood]

 

53 minutes ago, techyiam said:

You get less range but you would still be able to ride a pev and store it indoors.

I’d imagine there to be very little incentive for the landlord to allow LFPs but not Li-ions, whether it would require a signed proof, battery investigation, or whatever. The message it will give to other habitants is that PEVs are ok after all.

I can’t think of a better solution than to first share information on the risks and prior battery care, then get manufacturers to switch to other battery tech, and only then to get the landlords to change their rules. Despite all that though, there would still be old e-bikes in circulation for many years.

I heard DeWalt is switching to Blade batteries, which are apparently a new generation LFP. It sounded attractive. I plan to read more on it, and if viable, write a suggestion to Inmotion.

Edited April 13, 2023 by mrelwood

[techyiam]

13 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I’d imagine there to be very little incentive for the landlord to allow LFPs but not Li-ions, whether it would require a signed proof, battery investigation, or whatever. The message it will give to other habitants is that PEVs are ok after all.

At the current rate at which actions are being taken against pev's as a fire threat, it may not take that much longer before drastic actions will be taken against pev's with a broad stroke. There is already a precedent, the hoverboard, and the ban went nationwide. And those batteries were smaller. A few more big headlines in NYC, and that's it. People are not going to put up with losing their lives or getting their homes burn down.

If the industry itself does not taken action soon, the authorities can either banned them or regulate them. But who knows which way they are going to go with.

Edited April 14, 2023 by techyiam

[mhpr262]

6 hours ago, jimjam.nyc said:

constant fast charging on cheap chargers and over charging leaving batteries plugged in and charging all the time with cheap ass chargers.

Doubtful, li-ioncells may be finicky themselves but chargers can be cheap because the cells are dead easy to charge, nothing is needed but a constant voltage source with a current limiter at the beginning. You cant damage or overcharge li-ion batteries by leaving them plugged in either.

Edited April 14, 2023 by mhpr262

[Chriull]

2 hours ago, mhpr262 said:

You cant damage or overcharge li-ion batteries by leaving them plugged in either.

"Li-ion cannot absorb overcharge. When fully charged, the charge current must be cut off. A continuous trickle charge would cause plating of metallic lithium and compromise safety. To minimize stress, keep the lithium-ion battery at the peak cut-off as short as possible." from https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-409-charging-lithium-ion.

Imho beside not reporting single cell voltages not automatically shutting off charging as specified by the manufacturer (~50-60mA per paralleled cell) but just changing the led to green at _some_ current threshold is the second big shortcoming.

[UniVehje]

I think PEVs should be first devices to adapt new battery technologies. EVs could go longer with Li-ion batteries as they are doing fine already and are not stored inside. However, I fear that the market will dictate that cars will get them first and prices will stay high for a long time. 

If places start to ban PEVs because of the battery fires, it'll take a decade for the rules to change even with safer batteries. It will not help to say you have a safe battery. How will you prove it? People already love to hate rental e-scooters. They will happily accept new bans if it makes them feel safer. 

What are the potential alternative battery technologies for us? LFP seems safe but takes more space and weight to reach same range. Toyota is close to market with solid state batteries but it might take years for them to reach EUC manufacturers at decent prices. 

[jimjam.nyc]

The problem with Banning PEVs (atleast in places like NYC) is that too many people rely on them for a living. I honestly don't know if they will get banned because people will be unable to make a living or commute to work, etc. 

They already drafted (not sure if passed, but the mayor said he will sign) a law here that you cant sell e-bikes/Pevs without UL listed batteries in NYC. They are also offering help to shops and a program to trade in old or modded batteries for proper ones. So i do have some faith atleast in NYC.

This will take a long time to propagate out to everyone and all PEVs, but i do think it is a decent start. 

With the push for electric cars and things in the US i just dont know if Banning anything now makes sense. 

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, UniVehje said:

If places start to ban PEVs because of the battery fires, it'll take a decade for the rules to change even with safer batteries. It will not help to say you have a safe battery. How will you prove it? People already love to hate rental e-scooters. They will happily accept new bans if it makes them feel safer. 

If hoverboards are any indication, hoverboards seem to be unable to make a come back. It looks like the ban killed the initial interest that went viral. 

The pandemic seemed to have helped kick start the recent rapid growth of pev's. A ban can kill the momentum, and it may not be able to recover afterwards.

Edited April 14, 2023 by techyiam

[Cerbera]

Just now, techyiam said:

If hoverboards are any indication, hoverboards seem to be unable to make a come back. It looks like the ban kill the initial interest that went viral. 

Funnily enough I saw a kid out on one of those the other day, which as you say, is something of a rarity these days. But I suspect their failure to catch on isn't limited to the fires, though of course that, and the subsequent bans won't have helped. They are also very low power and range, very limited in what surfaces they can traverse, are easily damaged and awkward to have to carry, tend to break quite easily and look like toys, all of which I think contributed to their lack of uptake !

[The Brahan Seer]

This certainly is a big issue. These are the stats and headlines we are currently seeing in London..

https://www.london-fire.gov.uk/safety/the-home/e-scooters-and-e-bikes/

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/london-fire-brigade-escooter-lithium-ion-150-fires-b1068948.html

Over 150 fires in a year.

We do need the new battery tech quickly for our industry.

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Cerbera said:

They are also very low power and range, very limited in what surfaces they can traverse, are easily damaged and awkward to have to carry, tend to break quite easily and look like toys, all of which I think contributed to their lack of uptake !

That's the thing. It was all that but still sold crazy well before the ban.

Edited April 14, 2023 by techyiam

[The Brahan Seer]

11 hours ago, techyiam said:

If the industry itself does taken action soon

I think if we could get batteries that are easily removed that would help a lot as we could store them relatively easily in a fireproof or certainly waterproof area outside. Until the new battery tech arrives.

[alcatraz]

If you can't move, or monitor your packs to a degree that gives you peace of mind, then get Lifepo chemistry packs. They will never burn down your home.

You're going to see neighbors violate the rules and it's going to piss you off if you stop riding.

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, The Brahan Seer said:

I think if we could get batteries that are easily removed that would help a lot as we could store them relatively easily in a fireproof or certainly waterproof area outside.

 

41 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

If you can't move, or monitor your packs to a degree that gives you peace of mind, then get Lifepo chemistry packs. They will never burn down your home.

I think removable battery pack can help those are more attune to technology, and want to be active on taking steps to prevent battery fires. But I think most will still keep the battery packs inside their homes.

My vote would go to start using LFP ASAP for the interim.

[The Brahan Seer]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

My vote would go to start using LFP ASAP for the interim.

I agree. Its just unfortunate the expectations on range are so high now. Folk won't buy it unless we are banned from using anything else thats more risky. Since we can't even get our devices legal in many parts of the world I can see us getting banned and thats it; as mentioned already. 

So we really need to impress on the manufacturer's this needs to happen. Unfortunately Begode did try and everyone thought they had gone crazy.

Perhaps now that we know what is really at stake (losing our PEV/PLEV's this can be remedied.

The first strike was banning use on some public transport..

The second strike is banning storage or use around some homes..

We can't have a third- this is very serious folks!

[Darrell Wesh]

Just buy a big ass duffle bag and put the wheel in there when you leave and come. Chain it up outside, no one’s going to attempt to steal an empty dusty duffel. 

[Cerbera]

1 hour ago, The Brahan Seer said:

Unfortunately Begode did try and everyone thought they had gone crazy.

They thought it was a crazy video as I recall, but the idea itself is actually pretty laudable, and that video did at least show that wheels can roll when powered by those packs - I do hope the response Begode got didn't discourage them from keeping on trying !

Edited April 14, 2023 by Cerbera

[chanman]

From what I saw the resolute launch had some issues that soured it, but even if those were worked out I think people weren't accepting of the performance hit of the LFP packs and so they weren't going to sell. They want the same range and power output from the same size pack, which wasn't going to happen, and putting it on the RS, a model typically used for high performance activities, was doomed to failure to meet expectations.  

A somewhat widespread policy of "only LFP packs on PEVs in this building", as unenforceable as it may seem now, might actually be what is needed to shift the market in order to get people to accept the worse performance, especially for commuter wheels.

Edited April 14, 2023 by chanman