Sherman-S 3600wh: 100V, 20", suspension, 97lb

[wstuart]

28 minutes ago, Clem604 said:

Yeah I've just bought the other ones (the same ones you currently have) yesterday but I would've considered these had I just waited another day

The other ones are great, it's just that I have size 14 shoes and I stick my toes out.  That's why I love the gotway CNC pedals!  I think these will be a big improvement

I'll be selling my other pedals for $150 when these arrive - probably in a couple weeks 

[techyiam]

There is a Sherman-S owner posted on Facebook reporting that he is experiencing bearings noise. Based on what he saw after removing the wheel, he hypothesized that the slot cut out at the outter diameter of the axle to run the motor wires out wasn't sealed properly. And thus water managed to run in the channel to the other side of the bearings and made ingress past the inboard dust seal. The outboard side of the bearings have an outer weather seal. On the inboard side, there isn't right?

For those Sherman-S owners who have removed their wheels and had a chance to look into this, what are your thoughts on this? Is this plausible? 

[MrMonoWheel]

11 minutes ago, techyiam said:

There is a Sherman-S owner posted on Facebook reporting that he is experiencing bearings noise. Based on what he saw after removing the wheel, he hypothesized that the slot cut out at the outter diameter of the axle to run the motor wires out wasn't sealed properly. And thus water managed to run in the channel to the other side of the bearings and made ingress past the inboard dust seal. The outboard side of the bearings have an outer weather seal. On the inboard side, there isn't right?

For those Sherman-S owners who have removed their wheels and had a chance to look into this, what are your thoughts on this? Is this plausible? 

I'd be extremely shocked if the bearings are only sealed on the outside. That's like ultimate cost cutting penny pinching stuff. On my teardown I noted how the slot cut in the shaft seems like it's going to be an issue, especially considering that the silicone grease they use dissolves the silicone sealant that they put on the motor wire.

When I replace my bearings this week I'll take photos and come up with a better way of doing things.

[Planemo]

It would be so much better if EUC's ran the motor wire up from the bottom of the axle rather than dropping it in from the top. All bicycle hub motors work with the wire running up from the bottom specifically for this reason. IE a simple drip loop to prevent water ingress.

[Paradox]

7 hours ago, Planemo said:

It would be so much better if EUC's ran the motor wire up from the bottom of the axle rather than dropping it in from the top. All bicycle hub motors work with the wire running up from the bottom specifically for this reason. IE a simple drip loop to prevent water ingress.

Those extra inches of wire cost $1.00 and on a $4100.00 wheel it is way to much extra.  IOW  forgetaboutit!

[Xeranos]

7 hours ago, techyiam said:

There is a Sherman-S owner posted on Facebook reporting that he is experiencing bearings noise. Based on what he saw after removing the wheel, he hypothesized that the slot cut out at the outter diameter of the axle to run the motor wires out wasn't sealed properly. And thus water managed to run in the channel to the other side of the bearings and made ingress past the inboard dust seal. The outboard side of the bearings have an outer weather seal. On the inboard side, there isn't right?

For those Sherman-S owners who have removed their wheels and had a chance to look into this, what are your thoughts on this? Is this plausible? 

As far as I know - Leaperkim is aware of this problem, as it was reported to them by influencers (such as Wrongway) It is supposed to be fixed from the second batch.

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Xeranos said:

As far as I know - Leaperkim is aware of this problem, as it was reported to them by influencers (such as Wrongway) It is supposed to be fixed from the second batch.

I was asking also for a selfish reason.

I have an Abrams that had the exact axle configuration where the motor wires come out from a slot cut into the axle at the outer diameter. 

I wanted to know about the possible ways the bearings can fail by.

[Tasku]

50 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I wanted to know about the possible ways the bearings can fail by.

In general water gets inside. That is why they protect it to avoid it. But also, if the bearing grease is the good stuff, lil water won't matter. But in general people want both, good grease in the bearing and good protection to avoid water getting in. Also, some grease do not work in negative degrees, something I would like to change, living up north. That most of the cases that we encounter bearing problems, if that helps.

Bearings simply make noise, they still work. None wanna listen that noice they start to make, so that is the general need to replace em.

[Clem604]

2 hours ago, Xeranos said:

 It is supposed to be fixed from the second batch.

Good to know!

[techyiam]

11 minutes ago, Tasku said:

In general water gets inside. That is why they protect it to avoid it. But also, if the bearing grease is the good stuff, lil water won't matter. But in general people want both, good grease in the bearing and good protection to avoid water getting in. Also, some grease do not work in negative degrees, something I would like to change, living up north. That most of the cases that we encounter bearing problems, if that helps.

Bearings simply make noise, they still work. None wanna listen that noice they start to make, so that is the general need to replace em.

Thanks.

I have a lot experience with rusted cartridge bearings from the mtb world.

I also have experience with a T3. This is a Begode wheel with the 4" bearings. It was supposedly be prone to water ingress when ridden in rain.

Since I ride year round in the Pacific Northwest, I am riding in rain more often than not.

Yet, the T3 was fine. The bearings got rusted in short order after I start riding in snow on salted streets.

I managed to repair the original bearings. There is no play, no grinding noise, and rotates smoothly. Getting rid of the grinding noise took a very long time.

Once a bearings start to make grinding noise, one needs to stop riding and neutralize the rust immediately. If done in time, the bearings can still be used. Otherwise, the wear rate would be extremely high, and even if the rust could be neutralized then, the bearings would have become too worn. If the rust is left unattended, then the bearings will eventually seize.

I am looking for specific knowledge pertaining to the Veteran Abrams, Sherman Max, or Sherman S, regarding how the bearings can fail.

On the Sherman-S, there is an additional outboard weather seal bathe in silicone grease, and yet in @MrMonoWheel case, they still rusted.

[wstuart]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Thanks.

I have a lot experience with rusted cartridge bearings from the mtb world.

I also have experience with a T3. This is a Begode wheel with the 4" bearings. It was supposedly be prone to water ingress when ridden in rain.

Since I ride year round in the Pacific Northwest, I am riding in rain more often than not.

Yet, the T3 was fine. The bearings got rusted in short order after I start riding in snow on salted streets.

I managed to repair the original bearings. There is no play, no grinding noise, and rotates smoothly. Getting rid of the grinding noise took a very long time.

Once a bearings start to make grinding noise, one needs to stop riding and neutralize the rust immediately. If done in time, the bearings can still be used. Otherwise, the wear rate would be extremely high, and even if the rust could be neutralized then, the bearings would have become too worn. If the rust is left unattended, then the bearings will eventually seize.

I am looking for specific knowledge pertaining to the Veteran Abrams, Sherman Max, or Sherman S, regarding how the bearings can fail.

On the Sherman-S, there is an additional outboard weather seal bathe in silicone grease, and yet in @MrMonoWheel case, they still rusted.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Wrongway mentioned that his bearing issue developed after he rode on salted roads. Im assuming that the wrongway/eevees wheel had been ridden in rain prior to riding on salted roads and didn't have an issue.

Similarly @MrMonoWheel had ridden for a couple hundred miles, but then had a bearing issue after riding on salt water at the beach.  (I've heard this is super fun to do but I've never wanted to expose any of my wheels to salt water).

I wonder if it's the salt??

There's another guy I ride with here in San Diego who routinely rides his Sherman S and Sherman Max on the beach.   His Sherman Max never developed a bearing issue.  I wonder if his Sherman S has.  I'll ask him.

 

[Clem604]

11 minutes ago, wstuart said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Wrongway mentioned that his bearing issue developed after he rode on salted roads. Im assuming that the wrongway/eevees wheel had been ridden in rain prior to riding on salted roads and didn't have an issue.

The wheel Adam (Wrong Way) was using was from E-Wheels and he was riding around Vancouver when it was snowing and the roads were heavily salted. I'm not sure if the Eevees demo wheel was ridden in the rain or salt but it seemed to be fine the last time I rode it a month or so ago.

[techyiam]

39 minutes ago, wstuart said:

I wonder if it's the salt??

I suspect corrosion in the bearings will start even with a minute amount of salt water.

I think for a little water ingress, the stock bearings grease may be enough to provide protection against rusting. 

To guard against corrosion from salt water ingress would be much more difficult. . 

43 minutes ago, wstuart said:

There's another guy I ride with here in San Diego who routinely rides his Sherman S and Sherman Max on the beach.   His Sherman Max never developed a bearing issue.  I wonder if his Sherman S has.  I'll ask him.

This will be interesting to hear.

I wonder if your friend regreased his  bearings with marine grease.

I think the safe bet would be to relube bearings with marine grease.

[wstuart]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

I suspect corrosion in the bearings will start even with a minute amount of salt water.

I think for a little water ingress, the stock bearings grease may be enough to provide protection against rusting. 

To guard against corrosion from salt water ingress would be much more difficult. . 

This will be interesting to hear.

I wonder if your friend regreased his  bearings with marine grease.

I think the safe bet would be to relube bearings with marine grease.

So I messaged him.  He has 1100 miles on his Batch 1 Sherman S.  He said his bearings started going at 1000 miles.  He said there was no salt water, but he showed me a picture of his wheel covered in mud.  He thinks the mud did it.  

He plans to install SKF bearings with a Shinko 244 tire

[Tasku]

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

I wonder if your friend regreased his  bearings with marine grease.

I think the safe bet would be to relube bearings with marine grease.

While marine grease might help against rusting it might destroy the bearings too.
Generally they apply marine grease outside to prevent water going in.

So bearing needs to have "good grease" (but to the specs, not all grease work same application), and if the grease is wrong kind, it will fail. Selecting grease you need to know operating temperature, how warm will bearings get in use, rotational speed involved in bearing. After this they select greese to the bearing. But it seems that often they have selected the cheaper one, and not all the parameters work out. 

So it would be helpful to get to know what type of grease was used and look for replacing grease based to that (viscosity). I would ask your seller, who then asks the manufactor, and maybe we will know. It is possible they had wrong viscosity to begin with. Based on that would be easier to recommend what grease you should use in euc bearing.

(edit. Other wheels in their first patch have got it wrong too. Usually the store you buy it from, gets it fixed. I understand if some purchased from far away, this is a trouble for you.)

Edited February 3, 2023 by Tasku

[techyiam]

56 minutes ago, Tasku said:

While marine grease might help against rusting it might destroy the bearings too.
Generally they apply marine grease outside to prevent water going in.

What is your source? Can you provide a link?

 

Links below show and tell how people grease their boat trailer wheel bearings. This application is telling since boat trailers' wheel bearings are often submerged in salt water, and salt water can get in. Grease wise, select a grease that is designed for boat trailer applications. 

These Folks Sell and Service Boat Trailers

 

I use a taper roller bearings applicator in addition to a grease gun to grease taper roller wheel bearings. The folks in this video did it without using special tools.

Time-stamped. 

 

[Tasku]

16 minutes ago, techyiam said:

What is your source? Can you provide a link?

You want a link to point out what could happen if you use wrong grease? Try internet searching, there are variety of effects, none good to risk upon. But maybe read my message again? That is not the point I was trying to make.

I do not know what marine grease you would buy, so it could be wrong viscosity do you understand? Just saying "marine grease" is so vague, i bet there are multiple brands "marine grease". The grease could for one heat up during use. Based on a guess, that same exact grease used (in that trailer was it?) could work for you, but why not check it up?

Just ask the seller, where you got your wheel, to recommend you right viscosity grease. Better yet as what they use in the new bearings? Maybe even get a brand of grease, a name you could check specs. If they are not in same country, then try to find out what they used. After that you could go to store that has experience, and replacing the same specs with another grease available in your country.

Just randomly selecting grease that is used in some trailer, well could work.. Just lil random.

[KiwiMark]

Well, so far my SS is going great, but only 120km done. There is better weather over the next week, so I should be able to get some good riding in. I still haven't adjusted the suspension or even any software settings (except to get rid of speed warnings). The only thing that I have adjusted is the air pressure in the tyre - it was 18 PSI when I checked it and that seemed to be rather low (everything I've read here suggests that 25 - 40 PSI is the normal range of what people recommend, exactly what pressure is sometimes hotly debated - but no one recommends 18), so I added a few PSI to make it a bit more reasonable.

I have the next 2 days off work and the weather is currently OK, so I'm off for a ride now.

[techyiam]

49 minutes ago, Tasku said:

I do not know what marine grease you would buy, so it could be wrong viscosity do you understand?

I don't know what they sell in Finland, but if one was to buy a quality marine grease that is designed for boat trailer wheel bearings (like Lucas), in Canada or the US, one would find the commonly available NLGI Grade 2.

I can provide one data point.

I am currently using a non-name-brand marine grease in my T3 for about a year now, been through the four seasons. The label on the packaging states it can be used in boat trailer wheel bearings, and is NLGI 2 rated. The range of ambient temperatures I rode in spanned from about freezing to 30+ Celsius. If did not perceived any abnormalities while riding around the freezing mark.

[mrelwood]

I only checked up greases sold in Finland, and found out that there is a large amount of variety in bearing grease viscosity: 100 to 800 mm2/s.

 Earlier on I flushed the old grease out and packed my long noisy original V11 bearings with Mos2 bearing grease, but it was stiff enough to decrease the riding range quite a bit. Viscosity value unknown.

I believe the main reason the Liqui-Moly Marine grease works so well in EUC bearings, is it’s low viscosity value of 100 mm2/s. It is probably the most used additional or reinstalled bearing grease in EUCs. And so far no-one has reported any noticeable reactions from mixing up with the original grease. That doesn’t mean much though, since our wheels may switch to a bearing grease any day that doesn’t mix well with Liqui-Moly Marine grease.

 

Salt actually increases the surface tension of water, so I don’t know how salted roads would make water get into bearings any easier than pure rain water. Both would bring in contaminants that results in noisy bearings.

Edited February 4, 2023 by mrelwood

[Mango]

Use mineral spirits to completely rinse the bearings of the old grease, and pack in grease used for bicycles, like Wood waterproof grease, or any low viscosity marine grease. Reseal and press on the seal to remove any excess grease.

I've been riding my eucs in very wet conditions for months, no bearing issues.

[Tasku]

43 minutes ago, techyiam said:

one would find the commonly available NLGI Grade 2.

Seems you picked roughly right one. Still scary you just selected one based that someone used it on trailer.

45 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I am currently using a non-name-brand marine grease in my T3 for about a year now, been through the four seasons. The label on the packaging states it can be used in boat trailer wheel bearings, and is NLGI 2 rated. The range of ambient temperatures I rode in spanned from about freezing to 30+ Celsius. If did not perceived any abnormalities while riding around the freezing mark.

Sounds pretty good based on that. Here be something to look out for

The warning signs would be:

Decreased range: Possible reasons could be you overfilled capacity of the bearing. Or wrong type of grease. This is something to look out for, easy to see if you device performs less afterwards.

Any kind of bad smell: Wrong viscosity. Also could be wrong type of grease. The bearing might heat up too much in use.

Mixed grease: So this could cause some problems later on. It is important to clean the old grease away. Mixing grease is bad!

Deforming and wear: Look out for it on maintenance.

11 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I believe the main reason the Liqui-Moly Marine grease works so well in EUC bearings, is it’s low viscosity value of 100 mm2/s.

I am fairly sure some of the euc sellers could provide some good brands and viscosity recommends, if asked. Again that is what I would assume. 

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Salt actually increases the surface tension of water, so I don’t know how salted roads would make water get into bearings any easier than pure rain water. Both would bring in contaminants that results in noisy bearings.

Do you ride in heavily salted roads, through snow, slush, or mixture on your electric wheels? 

[techyiam]

@Tasku

What experiences have you had with wheel bearings?

Are are you able to provide a data point?

[KiwiMark]

OK, I'm back from my ride!

When you get to more distance than you have ever ridden on an EUC:

But you still have 54% battery, so instead of turning towards home . . . off in another direction for more riding!

Well, damn. 90km and still 41% left. Surely it isn't even legal to go home now without getting it up to 100km?

That looks OK . . . for today.

Hmmm, 100km with 36% left, despite riding at a pretty decent speed. I guess this wheel is capable of going 130km at a decent speed - that makes me happy! Obviously I knew I would get much better range out of a 3,600Wh battery than my 1,800Wh or 1,750Wh batteries could hope to manage.