Inmotion V13 Speculation

[SquallLHeart]

11 minutes ago, GHOSTTE said:

Dawn Champion claims the EBCP is faster

I recall her comment on ride performance and doesn't require as much effort to get it up to speed.. but must've missed the part where it sounds like you guys are implying a higher top speed.

[2disbetter]

4 minutes ago, Robse said:

EBCP ?

Extreme Bull (??) Commander Pro

Edited January 30, 2023 by 2disbetter
Corrected by SquallLHeart

[SquallLHeart]

Just now, 2disbetter said:

Epic Bull (??) Commander Pro

Extreme Bull

[Punxatawneyjoe]

why do i feel like "fancier mode" is on the horizon for the v13?

[superox]

48 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

So let me get this straight, he started will less battery power, stopped more times. The wheel was on for 1hr longer, he accelerated and braked much more according to the chart for the ride and only ran it to 7% and this is an accurate comparison against a wheel with a larger battery and less weight and 1/2 the watt motor? What was even the point of this ride? To dump on the v13 more?

Don't see how you can possibly make a more accurate comparison between two wheels than having the same guy, riding the same route, at as much the same speed as possible, but cope ... cope finds a way.

If anything the test was biased in favor of the V13, as the Sherman started at a lower battery %.

[Robse]

31 minutes ago, GHOSTTE said:

Dawn Champion claims the EBCP is faster

the Bull has a top speed of 50 mph, perhaps she's talking about acceleration? Anyway, unless you ride over the edge of the beebs, the v13 is faster.

[GHOSTTE]

5 minutes ago, Robse said:

the Bull has a top speed of 50 mph, perhaps she's talking about acceleration? Anyway, unless you ride over the edge of the beebs, the v13 is faster.

I think it was a combination of everything from what Dawn was saying. Looking at eWheels they're saying the EBCP top speed is 55mph and a Google search of the V13 says 56mph so top speed is negligible between the two; EBCP will be quicker at acceleration/deceleration due to lighter weight and a smaller wheel.

[chanman]

32 minutes ago, GHOSTTE said:

quicker at acceleration/deceleration due to lighter weight and a smaller wheel

The smaller wheel is a small difference in torque multiplier, but ultimately the maximum controller power is probably a bigger factor between a 20 and 22 inch wheel and a very capable rider.
Anyway the lower range makes sense to me, a controller design with 42 high voltage mosfets just isn't going to be as efficient, in addition to the extra weight of the whole thing.

Edited January 30, 2023 by chanman

[Punxatawneyjoe]

29 minutes ago, superox said:

If anything the test was biased in favor of the V13, as the Sherman started at a lower battery %.

I know it wasn't the most enthralling EUC video in the world and you probably skipped through it like i'm pretty sure everybody did unless they were using it as "white noise" to fall asleep but at 56:05 he states the og sherman was at 98% and at 55:06 he says the v13 was at "about" 95%. It's ok he also said in the beginning of the video @ 3:19 he says "this is not a range test" then says range test about 5 more times in the video and the video has "range test" in the title...

[GHOSTTE]

3 minutes ago, chanman said:

The smaller wheel is a small difference in torque multiplier, but ultimately the controller power is probably a bigger factor between a 20 and 22 inch wheel and a very capable rider.
Anyway the lower range makes sense to me, a controller design with 42 high voltage mosfets just isn't going to be as efficient, in addition to the extra weight of the whole thing.

The 42 MOSFETs in the V13 are run at a lower voltage than most other wheels. InMotion uses this as a "safety" selling point in their marketing. But I agree, it's not going to be efficient because IM is likely running them in parallel and there's the whole needing to optimize synchronously turning off and on the MOSFETs

[chanman]

5 minutes ago, GHOSTTE said:

The 42 MOSFETs in the V13 are run at a lower voltage than most other wheels

The efficiency part has to do with the Drain-Source on resistance, which is higher on smaller and higher voltage rated components. However putting such a large number in parallel effectively is reducing the losses, since less current is through each chip. I guess I'll need to wait for part numbers and do some math to be sure.

Edited January 30, 2023 by chanman

[Punxatawneyjoe]

16 minutes ago, chanman said:

I guess I'll need to wait for part numbers and do some math to be sure.

Ask and you shall receive..

Now i have no idea what im looking at but the numbers/letters i get are

C8098N20V

CVD7002

Hope this helps, i do like the current consumption discussion. It would be interesting for one of you electronics geniuses to figure this stuff out. It's way above my pay grade.

[chanman]

27 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

Ask and you shall receive

Awesome, unfortunately I get absolutely nothing when I search those or a few close strings, so maybe something obscure or too Chinese to show up on my electronics sites or google.

[techyiam]

According to Dawn in her live chat, Bob, the CEO of Inmotion contacted Dawn and spoke to her for about an hour and a half. Among the things they talk about was the idea that Inmotion would back away from quality and follow Begode's footsteps.

The V13 could very well be the last best quality wheel for a while, should Bob decides to change course.

It only make sense considering how well the S22, the Master, and othe Begode wheels have sold.

There appear to be enough buyers who are OK with wheels that have issues.

It really look like people love to have safety and quality, as long as it come for free, or at a low price. Meanwhile, they have no problem paying for performance and battery capacity. 

We reap what we sow.

Edited January 31, 2023 by techyiam

[GHOSTTE]

What's more fun? The crazy ex that's super promiscuous, risky, and toxic or the stable partner that's a bit boring because they're safe?

That's Begode versus InMotion

[Punxatawneyjoe]

12 minutes ago, GHOSTTE said:

That's Begode versus InMotion

Except Begode may leave you with something permanent.

[Uras]

2 hours ago, superox said:

If anything the test was biased in favor of the V13, as the Sherman started at a lower battery %.

yes, it seems that many folk just want to see certain results of the wheel they are interested in. I don't get it. I'd rather know the truth - what's likely to be repeatable. I bought my wheel from an awesome mob - e riderz. A dude there did a range test on the 16x and got 73kmh - it was realistic. He's heavier than me, and rode it faster but it was generally a flat ride whereas I live in a hilly area. I'm happy with that. No one wheel is going to be great at everything - I think many here just expect the impossible; if it isn't possible they don't mind trying to skew the results to make it seem as though it's possible.

[techyiam]

6 minutes ago, GHOSTTE said:

What's more fun? The crazy ex that's super promiscuous, risky, and toxic or the stable partner that's a bit boring because they're safe?

That's Begode versus InMotion

This is true until the time when the wheel does a high speed cutout, faceplants the rider, and the rider incurs a big medical bill, that is if the rider does not die first.

90 km/h top speed is in the big league now, where they play for keeps.

Poor head and tail lights is one thing, but poorly soldered battery cables is a whole different matter. 

[GHOSTTE]

Just now, techyiam said:

This is true until the time when the wheel does a high speed cutout, faceplants the rider, and the rider incurs a big medical bill, that is if the rider does not die first.

90 km/h top speed is in the big league now, where they play for keeps.

Poor head and tail lights is one thing, but poorly soldered battery cables is a whole different matter. 

Yup, crazy ex's will chop off your willy. My point still stands

[UPONIT]

3 hours ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

What was even the point of this ride? To dump on the v13 more?

Pretty much. Marty had a bad V11 day a while back, and has suffered from InMPTSD ever since.

3 hours ago, 2disbetter said:

I don't think he was doing it to be malicious or anything but I agree, I don't really see the point. The V13 is up front about what it is, and for what it is, Inmotion knocked it out of the park. It is heavy, doesn't have the best suspension, and the battery life is not the greatest, but it is still the fastest wheel on the market right now, and built to a standard none of the other wheels can match. 

Is it for everyone? Of course not. I love the options in the EUC world. Options are good. Competition is good. 

I'd love to hear more of what you think about the suspension. The reactions to it are all over the place. You actually own the wheel.

FWIW, I ride my V12ht way more than I ride my V11. I do see the usefulness of suspensions, even though I doubt I'll ever be a jumper.

Still, one of the things that caught my attention about the V13 is that the suspension is so easily removable. That's a very nice touch. Making it easy to adapt to different situations.

3 hours ago, GHOSTTE said:

Dawn Champion claims the EBCP is faster

I think their consensus was that it accelerates faster.

2 hours ago, chanman said:

a controller design with 42 high voltage mosfets just isn't going to be as efficient, in addition to the extra weight of the whole thing.

Higher voltage = more efficient. Higher V = smaller conductors for a given current. HV = smaller motor for same power delivery. Less heat. Faster charging, etc.

1 hour ago, chanman said:

The efficiency part has to do with the Drain-Source on resistance, which is higher on smaller and higher voltage rated components. However putting such a large number in parallel effectively is reducing the losses, since less current is through each chip. I guess I'll need to wait for part numbers and do some math to be sure.

Again, higher voltage allows for smaller wiring, less copper, etc. without increasing resistance (thus creating more heat) as compared to a lower voltage system with the same power output. If you then do what InM has done, and increase # MOSFETS and use larger wire, higher-rated connectors, etc., than necessary, you get a bigger safety margin and less heat. "Better" and safer, but copper ain't cheap. Neither are quality materials, superb modular design, careful engineering, higher-skilled assembly, or good QC. So the wheel costs $4k for a discernible reason.

Or. There are the other wheels which cost $4K because... their firmware allows you to go 60 mph instead of 55mph, and their batteries allow for 70 miles instead of 60 miles of range. Or because they like the suspension better but don't worry about build quality, safety, and clever design.

We are fortunate to have choices.

[Eyss]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

It really look like people love to have safety and quality, as long as it come for free, or at a low price. Meanwhile, they have no problem paying for performance and battery capacity. 

I think the issue is inmotion made some bad decisions with the v13.  Like do we really need potted batteries? 

I really would have no problem with begode if they just used stronger materials, better QC and smart BMS. 

We're also starting to see euc value drop compare to other rideables. There's a electric moped coming out with more battery, faster top speed, manufacturer warranty and fully road registerable that seems to be the same price as a v13.

[UPONIT]

42 minutes ago, techyiam said:

According to Dawn in her live chat, Bob, the CEO of Inmotion contacted Dawn and spoke to her for about an hour and a half. Among the things they talk about was the idea that Inmotion would back away from quality and follow Begode's footsteps.

The V13 could very well be the last best quality wheel for a while, should Bob decides to change course.

It only make sense considering how well the S22, the Master, and othe Begode wheels have sold.

There appear to be enough buyers who are OK with wheels that have issues.

It really look like people love to have safety and quality, as long as it come for free, or at a low price. Meanwhile, they have no problem paying for performance and battery capacity. 

We reap what we sow.

Damn. I hope that's not true. That would really suck if InMotion gets beaten into submission. That is EXACTLY how all of our manufacturing went in search of cheap labor and our product quality tanked.

"WE WANT CHEAP! WE WANT CHEAP! GIVE US CHEAP!"

"Wow, why are my tools so junky now? Well, at least they're cheap, so I can afford to buy them on credit on a lower salary than I had 20 years ago."

Who will save us from ourselves?

(Climbs off soapbox.)
(Wanders away to watch Dawn's video.)

[UPONIT]

19 minutes ago, Eyss said:

I think the issue is inmotion made some bad decisions with the v13.  Like do we really need potted batteries? 

I really would have no problem with begode if they just used stronger materials, better QC and smart BMS. 

We're also starting to see euc value drop compare to other rideables. There's a electric moped coming out with more battery, faster top speed, manufacturer warranty and fully road registerable that seems to be the same price as a v13.

If Begode did that, they wouldn't be Begode. They'd be InMotion. In which case people would ask, "Do we really need that?" This is the kind of infinite logic loop that killed off several evil Star Trek computers.

The E-bike market is a quintillion times larger than the EUC market. Economy of scale. Apples/Oranges.  Oranges/Tangerines.

Potted batteries? Yes. Water is a thing.

Edited January 31, 2023 by UPONIT

[LeGiroquoi]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

According to Dawn in her live chat, Bob, the CEO of Inmotion contacted Dawn and spoke to her for about an hour and a half. Among the things they talk about was the idea that Inmotion would back away from quality and follow Begode's footsteps.

The V13 could very well be the last best quality wheel for a while, should Bob decides to change course.

It only make sense considering how well the S22, the Master, and othe Begode wheels have sold.

There appear to be enough buyers who are OK with wheels that have issues.

 

I hope they won't go that way.. I really hope.. 

I personally REALLY don't care about speed. I have kids and teenagers who ride, and the 50kmh limit of the 84v are way sufficient for my taste.. 

I find stupid the race to ever greater speed, but I understand it also. There's a market for it. But now, come on.. 100kmh is enough.. I don't see what the hobby and growth of the community could gain for more competition over speed.

I think the market could benefit from a company that would make quality.

I want another iteration of the 18xl !! With a screen, maybe suspension, and some esthetic kibbles 

Less crappy designs and more bells and whistles 

[techyiam]

I believe one error Inmotion made with the V13 is not giving it 3600Wh battery capacity. 

The Sherman Max was the best selling big wheel, and it had 3600 Wh battery. There were also the Monster Pro, S20S, and Commander with 3600 Wh battery. In group rides, there will be too many 3600Wh wheels to contend with.

If Inmotion made a wheel with the same performance and handling characteristics as the Commander Pro, but without the flaws, and instead give it decent build quality and QC, not overboard though. I wonder if that would become a best seller.