INMOTION V12

[Paul g]

22 hours ago, conecones said:

Try these settings:

Offroad
Split ride mode
80%-100% speeding
80-100% braking

Jump pads/lean pads with the brake section perpendicular to pedal (not leaning back).

Should be able to brake pretty fast. Does not have the initial bite of Gotway wheels, but has good bite near the end (likely due to wheel size vs 18" wheels). With Flexpads (Hulajmarket), I hit overload/please repair alarms on braking more regularly than I'd like riding in busy streets. These pads are mounted low and doesn't provide much leverage compared to say Clarkpads, so with the proper setup, it should be easy to brake to the point of overpowering. If you haven't hit the alarm, you need to adjust setup and/or technique.

I have the responsiveness set to 90%. Not max, because I want to avoid burning the MOSFETs, nor less, so I won’t lose control.

[supercurio]

1 minute ago, Paul g said:

I have the responsiveness set to 90%. Not max, because I want to avoid burning the MOSFETs, nor less, so I won’t lose control.

Inmotion determined that neither off-road mode vs commuter nor softness setting had an impact on cut-out and MOSFETs health.
They observed in their test the same failure rates and results

Source: heard from the mouth of the R&D director.

[Paul g]

12 hours ago, ien said:

  

Are you using any accessories with v12?

IMHO, if you want to have more control - you need to use pads. It's not new, the same 'issue' was with v11 (the wheel was viscous)

https://eucmarket.ru/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/photo_2021-05-29_17-45-11.jpg

 

Isn’t those the very soft, floppy ones? I think I’ve seen them in a video of isthereanyfood. The ClarkPads push me out of pedals. I don’t like them. I have to see what I can do to reduce the thickness. I’ve heard it might help, but I need to try out some ideas. 

[Paul g]

14 hours ago, Timwheel said:

It has very little to do with the wheel. I use my v12 all the time, cruising at 60 kph on the streets of my city, and I can stop as well as a hard braking car. I used to be on split mode, but now I prefer commuting 100% sensibility. You HAVE to get pads on the V12, or at least use settings that allow the wheel to tilt back when braking.

 

I rode padeless for 150-200 km with no issues but I had a huge buffer zone in front of me, knowing I could potentielly wobble initially (again, completely rider induced) and that I would need some space to get the wheel under control. I now use the Alexa Pads, this is not the same wheel. Acceleration is insane, braking is superb if you sit right. Also, you should ALWAYS get some training time in a calm street to learn emergency braking until it becomes second nature. Else, you will wobble or not brake hard enough. This is only up to you, if you don't overpower the wheel then it brakes well enough, you just need to find settings and pads that will allow you to control your wheel.

 

You owe it to yourself and to the pedestrians. Or, just slow down if you can't.

No man. I’m not a crazy guy who goes on the street to make bravery. I will definitely not go there anytime soon. I first went on the same route on a previous Sunday night and was very quiet. I was completely taken by surprise. Riding on a Monday is  completely different from riding on a Sunday. 
 

It is obvious now I must try some kind of pads, though I kind of hate them. And also practice some emergency braking with them on.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Paul g

[The Brahan Seer]

@Paul g For someone who has only been riding a week or so you are doing very well. Looking back at my previous diary and it was about a month in I started hitting the streets and  6 weeks into riding that I started to feel more comfortable in traffic (plus I was an experienced biker previously). Even then I remember being sketchy on inclines mounting etc etc. 3 months is probably the point I felt I had everything under control. So yes certainly take your time. No rush. Most importantly... enjoy! 

[Silver]

5 minutes ago, Paul g said:

It is obvious now I must try some kind of pads, though I kind of hate them. And also practice some emergency braking with them on.

Once you find some that work for you you won't hate them trust me.

[yoos]

1 minute ago, Paul g said:

Do you have a V12? What settings would you recommend for good braking?

Sorry, I don't. I have Kingsong 16S and 18L and have a bit of experience (just test-driving really) with V11 and Begode Nik+.

The V12 might indeed have some quirks compared to other wheels (as stated by @techyiam). Nevertheless all EUCs work roughly the same. I suspect that you really might just need a bit more experience with your wheel, if it is your first and you haven't yet ridden a lot. I suggest to practice somewhere where there are no people (parks, parking spots, backalleys playgrounds, basketball courts etc -- all those places have odd hours when they are deserted). Or go to the countryside if you can. When there are no other people and moving objects you will be much more relaxed and can focus on controlling the wheel and finding the most efficient way of braking. Braking is about applying as much torque as you can on the wheel (i.e. you as a rider have to try to tilt the EUC back to signal it that you require braking torque). The basic way is to lean back, but this is usually insufficient, i.e. your weight placed on your heels will not generate enough torque to encourage the EUC to brake as hard as it can. You can try to squeeze the EUC with your legs and then lean back so that your calfs will help with the tilting. However, it's difficult to grip it hard enough. That's why powerpads were invented, so you can use them as a comfortable lever to tilt the EUC really hard, invoking maximum braking (or acceleration). This has already been said above: modern powerful EUCs, such as your V12, have a lot of torque and power and it's almost impossible to harness all of it without powerpads. On the other hand, you don't even need to invoke full torque to brake efficiently enough for most situations.

All in all I would just ride more and practice in a controlled environment, learning to brake harder by trying out various body movements. Here's an example of how hard braking looks. If your braking is still insufficient after say 500-1000 miles go for power pads (or find someone with a V12 with powerpads willing to let you try it out).

 

[Paul g]

9 hours ago, supercurio said:

Riding in a busy city can certainly get overwhelming

A 120cm strip, full with cyclists that wanna get home faster and to overtake you, is quite challenging in it self. Was much worse that I was prepared for. 

[Planemo]

13 minutes ago, Paul g said:

It is obvious now I must try some kind of pads, though I kind of hate them. And also practice some emergency braking with them on.

I didn't use pads on any of my wheels until one random day I hit an incline on my Sherman where they would have been handy, so I reluctantly fitted some very small ones in case the same situation arose again. Other than that, I haven't felt the need for them on any wheel and in general I don't like them unless the rider is doing serious off roading.

I ride accordingly, and haven't hit anything or crashed yet, in 3 years and however many 1000's of miles in all conditions - road/street/parks/trails etc.

I have always advocated that people should learn to be able to throw their wheel around at will inc emergency stops without using pads. Only once proficient should they be considered to further enhance the riders abilities. But no one is remotely interested in my advice re pads and I see newbies fitting them all the time. So make of that what you will.

Your V12 should stop just fine without power pads. If not, its either rider inexperience or you are simply going too fast for the conditions. No if's or but's. Theres plenty of riders out there who can ride wheels like lunatics without even a sniff of a pad on their wheel.

[Paul g]

23 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said:

@Paul g For someone who has only been riding a week or so you are doing very well. Looking back at my previous diary and it was about a month in I started hitting the streets and  6 weeks into riding that I started to feel more comfortable in traffic (plus I was an experienced biker previously). Even then I remember being sketchy on inclines mounting etc etc. 3 months is probably the point I felt I had everything under control. So yes certainly take your time. No rush. Most importantly... enjoy! 

I think it doesn’t have to do much with experience on other vehicles. It might help a little, but I don’t think it prepares you for the specific reaction of the wheel you ride. I rode bicycles for almost my entire life, and I rode fast when I was younger and had less wisdom . The speed I’m riding now the unicycle is laughable compared to my speed on bicycle. I definitely need more practice with the braking. I will ride on quiet roads from now on. Much more fun, less stress 😰 

[Paul A]

Pads can prevent a person to run off a wheel quickly.....causing an unnecessary face plant.

 

 

[Paul g]

33 minutes ago, yoos said:

Sorry, I don't. I have Kingsong 16S and 18L and have a bit of experience (just test-driving really) with V11 and Begode Nik+.

The V12 might indeed have some quirks compared to other wheels (as stated by @techyiam). Nevertheless all EUCs work roughly the same. I suspect that you really might just need a bit more experience with your wheel, if it is your first and you haven't yet ridden a lot. I suggest to practice somewhere where there are no people (parks, parking spots, backalleys playgrounds, basketball courts etc -- all those places have odd hours when they are deserted). Or go to the countryside if you can. When there are no other people and moving objects you will be much more relaxed and can focus on controlling the wheel and finding the most efficient way of braking. Braking is about applying as much torque as you can on the wheel (i.e. you as a rider have to try to tilt the EUC back to signal it that you require braking torque). The basic way is to lean back, but this is usually insufficient, i.e. your weight placed on your heels will not generate enough torque to encourage the EUC to brake as hard as it can. You can try to squeeze the EUC with your legs and then lean back so that your calfs will help with the tilting. However, it's difficult to grip it hard enough. That's why powerpads were invented, so you can use them as a comfortable lever to tilt the EUC really hard, invoking maximum braking (or acceleration). This has already been said above: modern powerful EUCs, such as your V12, have a lot of torque and power and it's almost impossible to harness all of it without powerpads. On the other hand, you don't even need to invoke full torque to brake efficiently enough for most situations.

All in all I would just ride more and practice in a controlled environment, learning to brake harder by trying out various body movements. Here's an example of how hard braking looks. If your braking is still insufficient after say 500-1000 miles go for power pads (or find someone with a V12 with powerpads willing to let you try it out).

 

I usually ride on quiet roads. It was not my intention to try shitting pants sensations. I ride in the places you mentioned.

[supercurio]

@Paul g since you mentioned London, maybe you can meet up a few other riders?

It can be a way to dramatically boost your learning curve, and I feel like you'll likely enjoy the discussion as well; like you've only experienced online so far but now in real life.
There's always a lot to learn from other riders, on what to do, as well as what not to sometimes 

[Paul g]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

@Paul g since you mentioned London, maybe you can meet up a few other riders?

It can be a way to dramatically boost your learning curve, and I feel like you'll likely enjoy the discussion as well; like you've only experienced online so far but now in real life.
There's always a lot to learn from other riders, on what to do, as well as what not to sometimes 

Oh, LOL. I don’t think experienced riders have time for a fresh salad like myself.  I usually ride very slow and I wouldn’t keep up with them. 

[Tawpie]

1 minute ago, Paul g said:

I don’t think experienced riders have time for a fresh salad like myself.  I usually ride very slow and I wouldn’t keep up with them. 

Still, ask around. There might be something. Locally, another newbie and I were unable to find a beginner/intermediate group (the non-FB group was a 20+ mph group), so the other rider started one. Some of the veterans joined the chat and added a lot of wisdom both to the chat and to the slow group rides. Most of us have graduated now, but we still keep the chat open and have family rides with kids and actively try to get new faces going with the local riding groups.

[supercurio]

31 minutes ago, Paul g said:

Oh, LOL. I don’t think experienced riders have time for a fresh salad like myself.  I usually ride very slow and I wouldn’t keep up with them. 

You know, everybody was a new rider at some point, and for most it was not long ago.
I can't vouch for London but in Stockholm we always welcome new riders. Several of them even were random people simply curious about wheels and taught on the spot, who became part of the crew soon after.

[UniVehje]

9 hours ago, Planemo said:

I didn't use pads on any of my wheels until one random day I hit an incline on my Sherman where they would have been handy, so I reluctantly fitted some very small ones in case the same situation arose again. Other than that, I haven't felt the need for them on any wheel and in general I don't like them unless the rider is doing serious off roading.

I ride accordingly, and haven't hit anything or crashed yet, in 3 years and however many 1000's of miles in all conditions - road/street/parks/trails etc.

I have always advocated that people should learn to be able to throw their wheel around at will inc emergency stops without using pads. Only once proficient should they be considered to further enhance the riders abilities. But no one is remotely interested in my advice re pads and I see newbies fitting them all the time. So make of that what you will.

Your V12 should stop just fine without power pads. If not, its either rider inexperience or you are simply going too fast for the conditions. No if's or but's. Theres plenty of riders out there who can ride wheels like lunatics without even a sniff of a pad on their wheel.

I’m in the same boat. Never installed pads in 4 years and 30k kilometres. On a 16x3” wheels they are not needed unless doing some intense riding. On my bigger wheels I’ve been fine without but thought about installing them on some steeper hills and when having had to emergency brake. I will probably install them on my next bigger wheel. But only small ones to help on tight spots. I would first learn without them, especially with a 16x3” wheel. 
In the end it’s a matter of taste and style. 

[techyiam]

15 hours ago, mrelwood said:

... What drew me off the ball was that if you are familiar with what the settings do, why is searching for your preferred settings or good braking settings “random”? I find that especially tweaking for good braking settings is fairly straightforward.

Ahhh, fair question and assumption. With the T3, or I suspect any other euc, you would have been correct. Unfortunately, this is not the case for with my V12 updated with firmware 1.5.4. It is possible that it wasn't like that when I first bought it with firmware 1.5.0. Unfortunately, I updated early, and as a result, was not able to spend much time with 1.5.0.

The main issue that I am experiencing is that once an effective setting is found through try and error, the braking performance can deteriorate over time. And when the next setting is found, it could be a value that is not a logical progression from the last. Let say a good setting was found by chosing a softer setting in the commuting mode. There is no guarantee that the next effective setting will continue to be in commuting mode, harder or softer. Sometimes the off road mode can give better result. Moreover, in split mode, there is no guarantee that a softer or higher value for "braking" will consistently give better braking performanc. Having said that, there have been times when split mode did worked logically. Currently, not so much.

When the wheel is not stopping well, it behaves analogously to stopping a motorcycle with air in the hydraulic lines of a hydraulic system. Braking power is not linearly proportional to torque applied. You can applied a lot more torque, but end up with diminishing braking power.

Although, I can't be absolutely sure, I believe the onset of this quirky behavior started with the use of vehicle calibration. I calibrate the wheel on a level floor with the kick stand deployed. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by techyiam

[Flying W]

I never liked the way pads take away much of the forward and back space to move. Had wheels stayed sub 30mph devices I doubt I would use them. 

I ended up settling on the Mike leahy version of the clark pads because they are really wide, and are ready to be split if you want them wider. You don't feel stuck front to back.

I also ride with my feel wider on the pedals due to having larger calves. The Mike leahy pads have larger tow cups so my feet stay on the pedals. 

I like to ride off road, two biggest reasons for using these is keeping my feet on the pedals and breaking on steep single track trails where I would not be able to hold my speed without the extra leverage.

The way I ended up using these was not what I expected. I ended up liking the front to be far away where I don't touch with my shins unless I try too. Under normal riding (not steep trails) I wouldn't know I had pads on. Breaking on the other hand is set up to touch my legs almost right away if stand up straight. This gives me a lot of leverage without being too far behind the wheel. On the RS torque you can break hard enough to skid and land on your ass on pavement. 

It took a little while but I found my Goldilocks setup. Feeling no pads on accel and ultimate leverage on breaking, all without my feet coming off bonking tree roots or using the edges of driveways as small ramps. 

@Paul g your picking this up faster than most. Just be careful, it's a very addictive hobby with no cure. 

[UniVehje]

25 minutes ago, techyiam said:

the braking performance can deteriorate over time

Sorry, but I have a problem with this idea. Can you elaborate a bit further how this is possible? I cannot imagine any mechanism how acceleration behaviour on EUC can deteriorate or change over time. 

[techyiam]

5 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Sorry, but I have a problem with this idea. Can you elaborate a bit further how this is possible? I cannot imagine any mechanism how acceleration behaviour on EUC can deteriorate or change over time. 

I don't understand it myself either. It is just my observation over time.

With the Begode T3, once it has been set, it has not changed for over a few thousand kilometers. With the Begode T3, performance and pedal behavior have not change over time so far. Just rock solid, as it would be logically to expect.

[ien]

11 hours ago, Paul g said:

Isn’t those the very soft, floppy ones? I think I’ve seen them in a video of isthereanyfood. The ClarkPads push me out of pedals. I don’t like them. I have to see what I can do to reduce the thickness. I’ve heard it might help, but I need to try out some ideas. 

Yep, they are soft and are used instead of the original pads. Thus, they are not as thick, and just allow you to have more control.

I don't have experience with them but it will come with my HT wheel.

 

I also bought a Cobra but I'm not sure if I'll use them till I've done over 1000km.

8 hours ago, Paul g said:

Oh, LOL. I don’t think experienced riders have time for a fresh salad like myself.  I usually ride very slow and I wouldn’t keep up with them. 

We are a community. Don't be so pessimistic 

[yoos]

21 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

I cannot imagine any mechanism how acceleration behaviour on EUC can deteriorate or change over time. 

I have a wild guess: the algorithm adapts itself with time [remember some marketing talk about adaptive response/AI in inmotions wheels or whatnot? Or do I imagine that now?]. Unfortunately this adaptation (if it indeed exists) can be detrimental in certain circumstances/for certain riders. So would not be the electronics/mechanical parts, [which should be robust over very long times] but perhaps something fishy with the algorithm.

[UniVehje]

5 minutes ago, yoos said:

I have a wild guess: the algorithm adapts itself with time [remember some marketing talk about adaptive response/AI in inmotions wheels or whatnot? Or do I imagine that now?]. Unfortunately this adaptation (if it indeed exists) can be detrimental in certain circumstances/for certain riders. So would not be the electronics/mechanical parts, [which should be robust over very long times] but perhaps something fishy with the algorithm.

I have not heard of any wheel implementing anything like that. Unless firmware is updated or settings are changed there should not be any change in behaviour. The rider can learn to adapt to it, though. 

[UniVehje]

21 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I don't understand it myself either. It is just my observation over time.

With the Begode T3, once it has been set, it has not changed for over a few thousand kilometers. With the Begode T3, performance and pedal behavior have not change over time so far. Just rock solid, as it would be logically to expect.

That's how it would work in any other wheel as well. No changes over time. 

I do remember when I got my first 18" wheel (18XL) I felt like I couldn't go up steep hills anymore, having used smaller wheels previously. I just could't do it. Six months later I had no problems anymore. Nothing changed with the wheel but I learned to use and trust the wheel better.