INMOTION V12

[Paul A]

@ien Paul g has the V12.

[ien]

1 minute ago, Paul A said:

@ien Paul g has the V12.

yeah, sorry

my fault 

[Paul A]

No worries ien.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Paul A
correction to spelling

[techyiam]

12 hours ago, Paul g said:

I went in the town center with my V12. I almost hit a lady on the crossing because I could not brake in time. I managed to jump off it and some how catch it. I don’t know how I did it but it was so close. Second, I had to stop on a red signal, again could not stop in time. I had to again jump off it. The slow brake is a real danger. Be careful. I won’t ride mine on roads again. I came home shaking. 

I have to concur with your assessment on the V12's poor braking performance, at least for most of the settings relating to sensitivity and split mode. I am using firmware 1.5.4. And I don't use power pads. My comparison is relative to the Begode T3, also without power pads.

Having said that though, for some reason, for some specific settings, the braking can improve dramatically, to a performance level not unlike the T3. However, I find that there is no reason or rhyme as to what those settings are. On the T3, one can choose one of soft, medium, or hard. Pretty easy to find out which mode I like best. But on the V12, it is pretty much a random search. My experience has been that unless I find the right setting, braking can be quite hairy. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by techyiam

[mrelwood]

 

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

On the T3, one can choose one of soft, medium, or hard. Pretty easy to find out which mode I like best. But on the V12, it is pretty much a random search. My experience has been that unless I find the right setting, braking can be quite hairy. 

Well, deciding on which T3 riding mode you like best would also be rather tricky if you chose the mode just randomly without knowing, or not understanding which one you’re riding. Time to take the random out!

Sensitivity 0-40 = Soft, 40-70 = Medium, 70-100 = Hard.

Switch off the split mode and compare 40 Sensitivity on both Off-road and Commuter to understand the difference between them.

 After that you have narrowed down the search to just one factor, the Split mode. I’m not sure if the V12 Split  functions exactly like the beta V11 Split, so I’m not sure I can offer you very detailed tips on that one. Other than to have the braking lower than acceleration for improved braking effortlessness.

[supercurio]

16 hours ago, Paul g said:

I went in the town center with my V12. I almost hit a lady on the crossing because I could not brake in time. I managed to jump off it and some how catch it. I don’t know how I did it but it was so close. Second, I had to stop on a red signal, again could not stop in time. I had to again jump off it. The slow brake is a real danger. Be careful. I won’t ride mine on roads again. I came home shaking. 

Until you get a lot more practice with the V12, especially getting a good understanding of which speed suits which environment deciding to not go on roads again is the right conclusion 👍

It is difficult to understand how you lost control due to excessive speed and almost hit someone not once, but twice in the same session.
Maybe something on self-control and emotional self regulation to work on.
Riding in a busy city can certainly get overwhelming.

Like @Rawnei mentioned, possibly your stance and center of gravity (foot position and pads if any) is too offset to the front and as a result, it's effortless to accelerate, hard to brake. Possibly how you got to speeds very easily, faster than you thought but had difficulty stopping later on.

That'll be true for every wheel.. and even more true for high speed wheels since the beep is so far away.

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

I have to concur with your assessment on the V12's poor braking performance, at least for most of the settings relating to sensitivity and split mode. I am using firmware 1.5.4. And I don't use power pads. My comparison is relative to the Begode T3, also without power pads.

Having said that though, for some reason, for some specific settings, the braking can improve dramatically, to a performance level not unlike the T3. However, I find that there is no reason or rhyme as to what those settings are. On the T3, one can choose one of soft, medium, or hard. Pretty easy to find out which mode I like best. But on the V12, it is pretty much a random search. My experience has been that unless I find the right setting, braking can be quite hairy. 

The controller and motor performance of wheels remain the same in all modes, so what changes between modes is how much input is required to get the output desired, and how much the pedals will tilt to help balance.

Begode T3 is a wheel which needs very little input vs output, to the extent it doesn't feel "smooth" to ride as it's so extremely responsive, almost jittery at low speed when not used to it. But its motor is not as powerful as the V12, and aside from the lowest speeds V12 will be able to brake harder than T3.

As long as you're not over-powering the motor: aka the wheel is tipping backwards then you can brake harder and it's only a matter of technique.

@Paul g and @techyiam before considering reaching higher speeds around cars and pedestrians, I would highly recommend considering using power pads.
Frankly, unless you're super tuned and already one with the machine, which your messages highlight you both are not, it is not a good idea to reach higher speeds with your V12 without first:

• Installing and positioning power pads for a healthy acceleration / braking balance
• Adjusting the foot-lock so feet can't slide forward during hard braking, from the lever effect
• Practicing hard braking on various terrains: flat, bumpy, gravel, downhill

Aside from rare exceptions with grand master riders, like @houseofjob riding padless on his Sherman in NYC , higher speed riding without a proper pads setup for braking is near irresponsible IMO given the difference in stopping power, which will sometimes make the difference between hitting someone or not.

Edited February 15, 2022 by supercurio

[techyiam]

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 

Well, deciding on which T3 riding mode you like best would also be rather tricky if you chose the mode just randomly without knowing, or not understanding which one you’re riding. Time to take the random out!

Sensitivity 0-40 = Soft, 40-70 = Medium, 70-100 = Hard.

Switch off the split mode and compare 40 Sensitivity on both Off-road and Commuter to understand the difference between them.

 After that you have narrowed down the search to just one factor, the Split mode. I’m not sure if the V12 Split  functions exactly like the beta V11 Split, so I’m not sure I can offer you very detailed tips on that one. Other than to have the braking lower than acceleration for improved braking effortlessness.

I believe you have misunderstood what I wrote. I am afraid I was not successful in conveying what I want to say because you have made an unfortunate wrong negative assumption about me. There absolutely nothing difficult in understanding how these ride or pedal mode work. Perhaps one day after you have own a V12 with firmware 1.5.4, you will see the light.

From reading your posts, I can see that you often show good insights and are helpful to other forum members Perhaps this could be one of those rare moments where you have made an extrapolation without enough data or a sufficiently accurate data model.

Edited February 15, 2022 by techyiam

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

I believe you have misunderstood what I wrote.

Definitely possible. What drew me off the ball was that if you are familiar with what the settings do, why is searching for your preferred settings or good braking settings “random”? I find that especially tweaking for good braking settings is fairly straightforward.

[conecones]

9 hours ago, lirva said:

Try to set the braking a bit softer (commuter mode) and smaller percentage to braking, so that the wheel leans backwards a bit, at least for me it helps with braking. 

I think this actually isn't always the case. I've spent a lot of time trying various %'s since braking was my #1 concern even before owning one. From what I've experienced, the softer split or commuter mode shines with non-optimal pad setup (or pad-less) or a more relaxed ride (gently lean back to brake, not squatting hard), whereas the harder split mode/off road is more beneficial with optimized/tight fitting pads and more aggressive squatting to brake. 

Put in another way:
If riding more relaxed -> softer mode will allow faster braking.
If riding more aggressive -> harder mode will allow faster braking.

For absolute shortest braking distance, it has to be hard mode w/ good pads and proper technique. There is a much more immediate braking action on hard mode, whereas in the soft mode you will experience a delay. Even though the braking feel "ramps up" quickly in the soft mode, if you actually test overall braking distance (parking lot is great for this), the hard mode will beat it every time because of the faster response at the initial phase of braking. Also I get wobbles on soft mode and not on harder mode, but I'm not sure why - my guess is because hard mode is a more direct feeling, that the body can detect the small oscillations immediately and counteract it before it gets worse, while soft mode you're kind of at the mercy of the wheel due to delayed response. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by conecones

[Steve Evans]

19 hours ago, Paul g said:

I went in the town center with my V12. I almost hit a lady on the crossing because I could not brake in time. I managed to jump off it and some how catch it. I don’t know how I did it but it was so close. Second, I had to stop on a red signal, again could not stop in time. I had to again jump off it. The slow brake is a real danger. Be careful. I won’t ride mine on roads again. I came home shaking. 

power pads really help with braking and acceleration. i agree, the wheel seemed dangerous with regard to braking before i add powerpads

[techyiam]

5 hours ago, supercurio said:

Until you get a lot more practice with the V12, especially getting a good understanding of which speed suits which environment deciding to not go on roads again is the right conclusion 👍

It is difficult to understand how you lost control due to excessive speed and almost hit someone not once, but twice in the same session.
Maybe something on self-control and emotional self regulation to work on.
Riding in a busy city can certainly get overwhelming.

Like @Rawnei mentioned, possibly your stance and center of gravity (foot position and pads if any) is too offset to the front and as a result, it's effortless to accelerate, hard to brake. Possibly how you got to speeds very easily, faster than you thought but had difficulty stopping later on.

That'll be true for every wheel.. and even more true for high speed wheels since the beep is so far away.

The controller and motor performance of wheels remain the same in all modes, so what changes between modes is how much input is required to get the output desired, and how much the pedals will tilt to help balance.

Begode T3 is a wheel which needs very little input vs output, to the extent it doesn't feel "smooth" to ride as it's so extremely responsive, almost jittery at low speed when not used to it. But its motor is not as powerful as the V12, and aside from the lowest speeds V12 will be able to brake harder than T3.

As long as you're not over-powering the motor: aka the wheel is tipping backwards then you can brake harder and it's only a matter of technique.

@Paul g and @techyiam before considering reaching higher speeds around cars and pedestrians, I would highly recommend considering using power pads.
Frankly, unless you're super tuned and already one with the machine, which your messages highlight you both are not, it is not a good idea to reach higher speeds with your V12 without first:

• Installing and positioning power pads for a healthy acceleration / braking balance
• Adjusting the foot-lock so feet can't slide forward during hard braking, from the lever effect
• Practicing hard braking on various terrains: flat, bumpy, gravel, downhill

Aside from rare exceptions with grand master riders, like @houseofjob riding padless on his Sherman in NYC , higher speed riding without a proper pads setup for braking is near irresponsible IMO given the difference in stopping power, which will sometimes make the difference between hitting someone or not.

 

On 2/11/2022 at 4:19 AM, supercurio said:

Two new significant cutout to report:

Sinesterw, Spanish rider 
https://www.instagram.com/p/CZz3etXInkR/

Wheel repaired, 4x MOSFET replaced after a first failure using the "tested" MOSFET Inmotion sent to distributors (mine received 20 of them)
Now, 30 km/h crash and injury as shown.

Brendan "Golden Rule"
https://www.facebook.com/groups/inmotionv12/permalink/518482279584031/

V12 ridden 1000km, "done the test 30 times"
wheel died when "hit the curb under my deck"

Your daily reminder that:

• no V12 is safe to ride
• Inmotion's confidence after (any amount of) stress test is misplaced
• Inmotion sending "tested/checked" replacement MOSFETs to distributors for warranty repairs is not helping

I've been keeping in touch with Inmotion after the initial call, with unsatisfactory actual result so far. A new call should happen next week.
What I'm suggesting now is more like a softer replacement program instead of a full blown recall which appear to have very little chance to happen.
Think of it like everybody gets warned of the risks, and all those who feel like they want a board replacement for peace of mind can get one free of charge - no need for a failure first.
But Inmotion would not cover 100% of the costs (shipping wheels back and forth, cost of repair) for these unlike they do for the dead boards, however they might compensate partially by sending accessories like honeycomb pedals.
This should be discussed internally at the moment.

It looks like this middle-ground approach has better chance to succeed, however given these two new failures I am not convinced that anything less than an actual recall would be satisfactory to keep riders safe.

Examples such as tradeoffs between acceleration and braking relating to pedal positioning, or the use of power pads, etc. applies to all euc's. In other words, you are merely regurgitating commonly know practices that apply to all euc's. According to you, in your other post, no one should be riding a V12 right now. After all, no technique nor power pad is going to save you or the toddler right in front of you right after a cutoff. It appears that you have forgotten all about the Inmotion's mosfet quaimire while you were drafting your post. Shouldn't your response be "Are you sure you should still be riding the V12 right now?"

Moreover, you neither currently own or ride a T3 nor V12, nor do you know anything relevant about me or my use case. But you have a lot to say without knowing whether any of it applies to me.

A good question Inmotion should be asking themselves is, should Inmotion take you seriously?

BTW, I bought a V12 because of the extra headroom that it can provide when a properly designed driver board is installed (but I didn't know about the latter going in). 

After everything that is said and done, I was merely, sharing a single data point on the V12 with firmware 1.5.4.

Edited February 15, 2022 by techyiam

[Tawpie]

Everyone is different, but my warm up routine before every ride includes a few hard accelerations and emergency braking from speed. Just to remind the wetware. I'm going to start making a few passes where the braking is coupled with turning+shoulder checks to cover instances where I'm thinking about turning or avoiding an obstacle but need to abort. Emergency braking while turning is quite a different action for me and it needs practice.

oops. My point is: regular practice and you'll get to know your wheel better and better. When you change settings, practice and get used to the new settings.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Tawpie
I forgot to make a point...

[supercurio]

34 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Examples such as tradeoffs between acceleration and braking relating to pedal positioning, or the use of power pads, etc. applies to all euc's. In other words, you are merely regurgitating commonly know practices that apply to all euc's.

Yes, applies to all EUCs.

Same physics for all of them: rider moves center of gravity from front to back, applying leverage on the wheel so it accelerates / decelerate to compensate for the shift of center of gravity. And beyond this, all wheels fundamentally brake "the same" up to the point the system is over-powered.
It's from my own observations and experience tho not "regurgitating", and applicable here.

34 minutes ago, techyiam said:

According to you, in your other post, no one should be riding a V12 right now. After all, no technique nor power pad is going to save you or the toddler right in front of you right after a cutoff. It appears that you have forgotten all about the Inmotion's mosfet quaimire while you were drafting your post. Shouldn't your response be "Are you sure you should still be riding the V12 right now?"

I don't have control over what other people do, I have authority only over my own choices and action.
So if someones wants to ride his/her V12 I wish it to be as safe for everyone involved as possible, hence my suggestions.

I'm not sure I understand you point here, but it's probably not your prerogative to determine what my responses should or should not be in this forum. Circling back to "no control over what other people do"

34 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Moreover, you neither currently own or ride a T3 nor V12, nor do you know anything relevant about me or my use case. But you have a lot to say without knowing whether any of it applies to me.

A good question Inmotion should be asking themselves is, should Inmotion take you seriously?

Not sure what it is about, but let's say I'd like to de-escalate that. Please?

34 minutes ago, techyiam said:

BTW, I bought a V12 because of the extra headroom that it can provide when a properly designed driver board is installed (but I didn't know about the latter going in). 

After everything that is said and done, I was merely, sharing a single data point on the V12 with firmware 1.5.4.

Yeah same, ordered a V12 for extra headroom (powerful HS motor) and safety. Not happy with the current situation either.

Edited February 15, 2022 by supercurio

[Paul g]

21 hours ago, Waulnut said:

The v12 doesn't brake like my previous RS-S for sure. But like @AtlasP said, it's on the rider's end with experience on the wheel.

I'm glad no harm was done to both individuals. I suggest taking the v12 out and do some emergency braking to see what you're comfortable with. Hope it restores some confidence back afterwards. 

Thanks! I am a little bit scared now to brake too hard. What if it cuts off? I also could not ride with the ClarkPads, they’re so thick they push my legs out of the pads. I mean, I think I had leaned as hard as I could, but really it would not stop. I remember I was literally sitting with my body behind the wheel completely, and the wheel was still rolling like nothing happened. 

[Tawpie]

24 minutes ago, Paul g said:

What if it cuts off?

You fall on your butt! Don't try to catch yourself with your hands/arms/elbows etc., that's what the gear is for. (Azzpads, padded shorts, pillows, HELMET)

24 minutes ago, Paul g said:

I remember I was literally sitting with my body behind the wheel completely, and the wheel was still rolling like nothing happened. 

I'd try without the pads (I encourage getting familiar with a wheel without pads, then add pads later). Pads are another variable.

For me I discovered that when I was braking hard, I was also more 'on my toes' than I thought. This caused me wobbles which isn't what you're experiencing but I mention it because it is possible to lean backwards and still be pressing the pedals forward of the pivot point. I'd suggest you think about really jamming your heels into the pedals. Start at lower speeds, the sensation is different... I'm just wondering if you might be leaning back but are actually on the balls of your feet more than you want to be.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Tawpie

[Paul g]

21 hours ago, conecones said:

Try these settings:

Offroad
Split ride mode
80%-100% speeding
80-100% braking

Jump pads/lean pads with the brake section perpendicular to pedal (not leaning back).

Should be able to brake pretty fast. Does not have the initial bite of Gotway wheels, but has good bite near the end (likely due to wheel size vs 18" wheels). With Flexpads (Hulajmarket), I hit overload/please repair alarms on braking more regularly than I'd like riding in busy streets. These pads are mounted low and doesn't provide much leverage compared to say Clarkpads, so with the proper setup, it should be easy to brake to the point of overpowering. If you haven't hit the alarm, you need to adjust setup and/or technique.

Can you brake safely on your V12 when you go on busy roads? I went with it very late on one Sunday night and it was a pleasure to ride through the city, because it was not busy and I could ride in my own ride. Made the mistake to go on the same route but on a Monday night. It was busy as hell, bikes everywhere, and I was riding on bikes lane, so I had to keep up with them at higher speeds. Cars and people everywhere. Was very different. Won’t do that mistake again. Now, I definitely don’t have much experience- this was my 7 day of riding, if I’m not wrong, but I remember when I was braking I was leaning so hard, I was completely in the back of the wheel with my body and the wheel was still rolling like hell. Fuck that! I shit my pants. I tried the ClarkPads but they push my legs out of the pedals so I took them off. I could not find much use in them. 

[supercurio]

32 minutes ago, Paul g said:

Thanks! I am a little bit scared now to brake too hard. What if it cuts off? I also could not ride with the ClarkPads, they’re so thick they push my legs out of the pads. I mean, I think I had leaned as hard as I could, but really it would not stop. I remember I was literally sitting with my body behind the wheel completely, and the wheel was still rolling like nothing happened. 

Split pads like Grizzla Pads are a solution to avoid increasing the wheel width, which can quickly become an ergonomic issue for everyone blessed with big calves by nature  
I designed my own for that reason on Sherman.

The amount of lean back we can transfer into leverage onto the wheel without losing balance is massive with pads compared to without. Without, we can only push onto the pedals with our heel and try to squeeze the top of the wheel for some more grab. It will never feel super secure when hard braking, and will be pretty poor for emergency braking - when you don't have the time to drop your center of gravity down and back that much.

It should not be too hard to over-power the V12 when braking at the very end (for an experienced rider), just before being fully stopped (pedal dipping back) but at that point you won't fall if you prepared for it.

Cutting off is a problem regarding the MOSFET issue, but not related to braking.

Edited February 15, 2022 by supercurio

[Paul A]

Maybe try squeezing calves together to grip the wheel, then lean back....

Don't need pads...

[Paul g]

20 hours ago, The Brahan Seer said:

Don't lose heart, its all a learning curve and you have gained valuable experience already. So you understand the limitations of the wheel currently, so when you next go out observe where you are and everything around you and take preventative action. The great thing about EUC riding is braking or simply slowing down is as much fun as speeding up. I don't know your experience on the road generally but if it is limited check out DanDanthefireman's youtube channel; try his earlier videos to learn some road craft from a bikers perspective.

I’m ready to learn, but I’m not the guy to take foolish risks. That ride was the most dangerous thing I did in the last years.

I think with the V12 I’ve seen enough. I like to have total control when I ride a bicycle, bike, or whatever it is I use. I know pretty clear I want more braking power and acceleration as well. I like torque and control. If speed comes without these, it is not for me. I need a safe unicycle that has plenty of torque. The V12 is a beginner’s mistake for me. I’ll get rid of it as soon as possible and I know I’ll probably lose a lot of money because of that, but it is what it is. Oh, and I might give the impression I was speeding up. I had the limit set at 25kmph and first beep at 20kmph. I was slower than many bicycles, many were leaving the bicycles path and went on the street, and I was most probably the culprit. I wasn’t speeding. I would have rode even slower, but it was the bicycles that were pushing me faster. London gets very busy during the working days, so I had no choice but flow with the traffic. Thanks for encouragement. I won’t lose heart, but I need a brake for a while. 

[Paul g]

13 hours ago, Rawnei said:

It's not the wheel, pure speculation but could be you were going too fast, could be you weren't leaning back enough, could be your foot/pad positioning need to stand a little bit further back to help you lean back and brake.

I was leaning hard. The traffic lights change fast and you need to react faster. And you don’t have extra time to rethink or reevaluate. On the streets of central London is not like in Denver or some suburbs in California, or other places I’ve seen some YouTubers ride. It is hell compared to that. And you can easily end up under the wheels of a car.

[Paul g]

13 hours ago, lirva said:

Try to set the braking a bit softer (commuter mode) and smaller percentage to braking, so that the wheel leans backwards a bit, at least for me it helps with braking. 

I don’t know, commuter mode should make it react with a small delay, so I’m not sure is a good idea. 

[supercurio]

@Paul g don't worry, it's just something very new.
I didn't realize you were only riding for 7 days, you were wise to set a speed limit.

Many riders will take longer time to expose themselves to the full blown city, it can be a very scary experience. For a the first few months I think pedestrians are the most terrifying thing since you absolutely don't want to hit them, yet any unexpected movement or change of direction from them can lead to your fall.

A bell you put on your finger is a good tool to make sure they know something like a bike is there in case they don't see you.
7 days is only the very beginning. It should take at least months before being comfortable riding in the city. If not, then there's probably some over-confidence at play.

On paper (without the MOSFET issue) the V12 is a fine wheel even for a beginner, since Inmotion programs wheels to make them easier to ride than most.

Off-road and skate parks are excellent to gain control and balance on your EUC. It's okay to get out of your comfort zone a little, but not too much.
The lack of control you experience now is 100% linked to how new it is. In a few months, you won't believe what you wrote that day and how difficult things seemed.

 

11 minutes ago, Paul g said:

I don’t know, commuter mode should make it react with a small delay, so I’m not sure is a good idea. 

If you don't use pads (at 20-25km/h it's totally okay) commuter mode should make braking easier and more natural by leaning into the braking with you, supporting your feet better by angling the pedals. It is pretty hard to brake without pads with pedals remaining 100% flat.

Edited February 15, 2022 by supercurio

[Paul g]

12 hours ago, Paul A said:

A traffic light usually changes to amber to give drivers/riders plenty of time to slow and stop.

How is it possible to not stop in time?

How is it possible to nearly hit a pedestrian at a crossing?

 I rode bicycles. When the amber light is on, you must brake on the spot, you don’t have time to fuck about, or pray your unicycle will stop. I might be a beginner, but only on unicycle.

[Tawpie]

Echoing @supercurio, don't lose heart. The V12 was not a bad choice (well, it won't be after IM fixes it)... it's probably not just the wheel. Remember your ride when there wasn't traffic? Try to do that for a month, no traffic for 30 rides. First, it's a lot more fun without traffic and the stress of having to get to work. Second, it'll get you acquainted with your wheel and give you a chance to really enjoy the experience.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Tawpie

[Paul g]

12 hours ago, yoos said:

Quite easy when driving an unfamiliar vehicle and using reflexes/muscle memory accustomed to another vehicle. The first time I tried the V11, I fell backwards when braking because I was used to the KS16 and my input was insufficient for the V11 to slow down as quickly. Another example: I took a carsharing car on January 1st and immediately had to stop to let a lady cross the street. I was going slow (40kph) and had plenty distance (50m) but there was suddenly little to no traction (obvious from the ABS system happily engaging with cozy cracking sounds). I stopped right in front of the lady. Turns out the car somehow had worn out summer tires [which should be impossible mid-Winter with the amount of maintenance carsharing vehicles get].

As others point out, you have to familiarize yourself with the new vehicle first. Most importantly, test and train braking. The V12 has enough power, it's indeed about settings and technique.

Do you have a V12? What settings would you recommend for good braking?