Incline obsession?!

[Chucka Wheelie]

I'm sorry but this is probably a rant post... The latest video from Electric Dreams has got me a little annoyed.  What is the obsession with climbing steep inclines repeated going to achieve?  Does anyone climb those kinds of angles on a daily basis on their rides?  Wrong Way does those steep inclines too but at least it's part of his review process.  

He's never really liked the Sherman from the get go so I just found this video pure click bait.  Pointless vid IMO.  The fact that he also burnt out his EX-N during this climb obsession vid really didn't achieve anything but to prove that you can give yourself a big repair bill on not one but two wheels if you set your mind to it. 

Is the Sherman perfect? Hell No! But is a Sherman assembled better than all the Gotway/Begode wheels from the factory?  Resounding YES.   I'd rather have a wheel that I don't have to open up and check if the numpties at the factory did their jobs right the moment I receive it.  The Sherman AND EX-N are high speed cruising wheels.  If you want torque to go up insane inclines, there are better wheels with high torque motors out there!  Maybe you can go burn them out too ED. *GIANT EYE ROLL*

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Kamikaze_K

[.....]

I don't like to torture my wheels, they cost me too much time and I worry too much about them working properly. I do like to climb small hills tho, but 20deg or until I hear groaning is max for me. Beeps arent reliable and shit can burn up on any of the wheels. I hear a beep and it means STOP doing that, not 'try again'.

Some people also tow large Rv's with small trucks and wonder why the tranny burns up. Humans just doing what they do.

Edited June 2, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Chucka Wheelie]

Just now, ShanesPlanet said:

Some people also tow large Rv's with small trucks and wonder why the tranny burns up. Humans just doing what they do.

You know what they say... STUPID is forever. 

[.....]

I don't find him all that odd or troubling tho. I mean hell, its good to know what your wheel can and can't do. What bothers me, Veteran nor Gotway fully tests to make it impossible for this to be happening. Maybe its harder to protect these motherboards when being tortured, than we suspect. Of course, you limit current and specs dont compete for advertising. People start moaning about too much headroom. You limit heat too heavily, and people start bitching that it stops and its not even 'too' hot. I put my Sherman into the wind as it was designed. Keep it moving, know how power and heat is related, and don't expect too much. I envy people with the resources to do this testing on their own dime.

Edited June 2, 2021 by ShanesPlanet
reworded for clarity

[Chucka Wheelie]

9 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I don't find him all that odd or troubling tho. I mean hell, its good to know what your wheel can and can't do. What bothers me, Veteran didnt fully test or make it possible to prevent this from happening. Maybe its harder to protect these motherboards when being tortured, than we suspect.

I don't mind his vids normally but this one just rubbed me the wrong way. (no pun intended)

Not properly testing their new products is sadly the MO of all EUC companies... The practise of getting YT content creators to beta test their new wheels is sadly the norm these days. 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Kamikaze_K

[supercurio]

I think it's a perfectly valid test from @Jack King Song

The most fun have on EUCs is definitely off-road, and hill climbing is one of my favourite part.
I come from and grew up in the Alps so it's pretty much in my genes.
My home village, called Gruffy is made of very steep street/roads, much longer than anything usually tested. Most fun activities, either on a vehicle or walking involves climbing, a lot of it.

One of the main hobby where I'm from is hiking, which essentially means climbing mountains.

Nowadays I live in a much flatter area in Stockholm but whenever I get the opportunity to go up, I do; It feels good!

Now, if I walk or cycle up, nothing is gonna blow up. If I climb with my 16X it's absolutely fine as well. 10 times in a row? No problem

 

I understand that people who grew up and lived all their life in flat areas might not get the point, but for others' it's a bit like a way of life.

So of course, for people like us we don't want to be more limited on a wheel, when we would be just fine with just our legs. Wheels are great because they give you more capabilities, not less. And the fact that they self-destroy due to inadequate sensor and programming is the icing on the cake.

 

I'm really appreciative for those who explore the limits, identify and show faws in order to make EUCs less like amateurishly put together death machines, and more like a reliable super-power and transport mechanism.

I'm not sure the Veteran Sherman would be able to go around my village without burning up actually, or even up the street right ahead of the house where I lived as a kid.

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by supercurio

[meepmeepmayer]

It's not about climbing steep hills. It's a torture test for the electronics. You see if and how they survive. Nothing puts more stress on the electronics than very quickly inducing some prolonged extreme stress (less time for heat to dissipate).

If the wheel survives, it's certainly good for everyday life. If it fails, that just shows the electronics (cables, mosfets, etc.) were simply too small as they should not have gotten that hot in the first place (you could always design for the battery's theoretical max amperage). Or at least it shows the temperature alarm isn't good enough (sensor not actually on the mosfets) to warn you in time if everything happens too fast.

I applaud Begode and Veteran for not having simple firmware limits to current (or whatever), like presumably IM and KS have, or at least having higher limits. Allowing the full power of the hardware to be used, hopefully making the case for bigger components.

[Rehab1]

I found his video to be educational. It doesn’t appear that he exceeded the 30% grade limit for the Sherman.

I use to test all of my wheels at an auto proving grounds on both 20% and 30 % grades. It was a fun way to spend the day and share important data with other riders. 

 

[supercurio]

Good point @Rehab1

Leaperkim pats themselves on the back after @Marty Backe completed (with a pause) his overheat hill here:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=161294705605058&id=104807201253809&__tn__=-R

Spec is indeed 30° grade, listed by eWheel as well.

As torture test or for EUC sport, it fails to match the advertised spec.

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by supercurio

[enaon]

40 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

I found his video to be educational. It doesn’t appear that he exceeded the 30% grade limit for the Sherman.

the sherman is giving grade of incline in degrees, that is about 60 in percentage. 

[Rehab1]

1 hour ago, enaon said:

the sherman is giving grade of incline in degrees, that is about 60 in percentage. 

You’re exactly right. Grades are confusing. He still stayed within the parameters but the tire slippage going up the steep hill may have contributed to the end result. 

He definitely fried the board. I’m pretty sure corporate will supply him with a new one free of charge. 

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Rehab1

[enaon]

1 hour ago, Rehab1 said:

Grades are confusing.

I think the easiest way is to remember that 100% grade means that:

tan(gradeInDegrees)=1

so 100% is 45°.

[.....]

3 hours ago, enaon said:

the sherman is giving grade of incline in degrees, that is about 60 in percentage. 

Wait, whats this? So the hill I climb for fun and claim is 13% grade is actually more? I measured it with a phone app and angle was 13%. Im always happy to learn new things. Funny, years of driver training, noone mentioned that grade and angle% werent the same. So ALL of my wheels climb me up a 26% grade (or so) regularly.

TO be fair, his test was on grass. I don't see anywhere that Veteran mentioned that climb angle AND in grass.

@supercurio odd that MY SHerman has bluetooth as eucw connects to it all the time. Isnt it funny how such simple information can be somewhat askew in these spec sheets? Or at the least, presented in a manner that is obscure.

Edited June 2, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[enaon]

30 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Wait, whats this? So the hill I climb for fun and claim is 13% grade is actually more? I measured it with a phone app and angle was 13%.

the phone is reporting degrees of gradient, the percentage is associated but not the same. The best way is maybe to picture the triangle. 

[.....]

Ah, so a grade is both elevation and distance... durr. Thanks, makes perfect sense.

[Eucner]

No, grade-% is a different way to tell the angle. Just to confuse people.

[That Guy]

I live in a very hilly place, which has a lot of really steep streets and roads (both short and long) and also several footpaths 50-60% gradient that I use on daily. Before I chose my wheel (and being on a heavier side) I watched and read everything I could find on hill climbing capability. And I am very thankful for every resource. So, I guess, it's good that different extreme tests and reviews exist, the more reviews are out there the better for different people and circumstances...

Edited June 2, 2021 by That Guy

[.....]

10 hours ago, supercurio said:

Good point @Rehab1

Leaperkim pats themselves on the back after @Marty Backe completed (with a pause) his overheat hill here:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=161294705605058&id=104807201253809&__tn__=-R

Spec is indeed 30° grade, listed by eWheel as well.
 

So a 30 DEGREE grade isnt the same as 30% grade? Im guessing degrees is simply angle. Where % is angle/distance calculation? The spec indicates that the sherman could handle 30degrees or 50ish%? Of course it doesnt clarify weight of rider, wind, road surface or ambient temperature. I bet it WOULD have made it in freezing cold with full battery, a 60lb chinese guy on solid concrete at max air pressure with a running start for the length they indicated (which is none).

 

Wow, looks like LeaperKim took to using Marty as a poster child. I wonder how well it went over, when he began promoting the Gotway after? Good stuff! Seriously @Marty Backe you should get some compensation for how much they are using your footage for adverts!

Edited June 2, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[That Guy]

4 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

So a 30 DEGREE grade isnt the same as 30% grade?

That's correct. 30 degrees is 57.7% gradient. 100% gradient is 45 degrees - it is because the horizontal profile of the incline is equal to vertical.

[enaon]

39 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

So a 30 DEGREE grade isnt the same as 30% grade?

no it is not. 

Look at the triangle, grade of incline in degrees is the angle, grade of incline in percentage is (rise/run)X100 (or tan(angle)X100 )

Edited June 2, 2021 by enaon

[Resko727]

The one thing I found interesting about Marty’s test. is in one of the videos he rides with another guy on a ex from euco and Marty is on something I can’t remember v11 or whatever. They run overheat hill no problems they switch and do whole course again and Marty over heats the ex. There conclusion was that Marty is a slower rider so he puts more heat in the wheel. So after that I pretty much concluded that if you want to do steep terrain  with powerful wheels better pick up the speed. 

[Roadpower]

42 minutes ago, Resko727 said:

The one thing I found interesting about Marty’s test. is in one of the videos he rides with another guy on a ex from euco and Marty is on something I can’t remember v11 or whatever. They run overheat hill no problems they switch and do whole course again and Marty over heats the ex. There conclusion was that Marty is a slower rider so he puts more heat in the wheel. So after that I pretty much concluded that if you want to do steep terrain  with powerful wheels better pick up the speed. 

Hmm, interesting. Electro-mechanically I believe that this is true from my own experiences and thoughts on such things but it would be nice if folks with an engineering background could add their voice here.

EDIT: It may be akin to putting a heavy load on a petrol engine when the engine is well below it's peak torque or power zone. For example, most class eight truck engines are designed to hit their peak power around 1300-1500 RPM. Running them well below that is referred to as "lugging".

Edited June 3, 2021 by Roadpower

[Chriull]

35 minutes ago, Resko727 said:

So after that I pretty much concluded that if you want to do steep terrain  with powerful wheels better pick up the speed. 

A bit of speed is helpfull indeed! Motor current is more or less the same "independend" of speed, but with higher speeds it burdens the whole system for less time!

And especially in rough uphill terrain too low speeds can easily cause additional too serious burden peeks.

Generally speaking - i did not watch this video.

[Resko727]

1 hour ago, Roadpower said:

Hmm, interesting. Electro-mechanically I believe that this is true from my own experiences and thoughts on such things but it would be nice if folks with an engineering background could add their voice here.

EDIT: It may be akin to putting a heavy load on a petrol engine when the engine is well below it's peak torque or power zone. For example, most class eight truck engines are designed to hit their peak power around 1300-1500 RPM. Running them well below that is referred to as "lugging".

I think this is the correct idea a high speed wheel with no load speed of 60mph I assume has peak power at 30mph. A msp ht with 50mph no load  would be 25mph. Basically a lower gear ratio so to speak.

1 hour ago, Chriull said:

A bit of speed is helpfull indeed! Motor current is more or less the same "independend" of speed, but with higher speeds it burdens the whole system for less time!

And especially in rough uphill terrain too low speeds can easily cause additional too serious burden peeks.

Generally speaking - i did not watch this video.

 

Yes I would guess increase speed helps with more wind also here the video for reference. 

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Resko727

[Roadpower]

21 minutes ago, Resko727 said:

I think this is the correct idea a high speed wheel with no load speed of 60mph I assume has max torque at 30mph. A msp ht with 50mph no load  would be 25mph. Basically a lower gear ratio so to speak.

Okay so I did a tiny bit looking around on this. I may very well be wrong in my earlier conjecture and contrast. I am reading claims that with electric motors that actual peak torque is at zero RPM. BUT, peak torque on an electric motor is also peak current. This makes sense to me for numerous reasons including plain old observation. Both cut outs and failures almost always show under heavy demands.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Roadpower