Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[spitfire1337]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

It might take some time, since for now it would requires to use a custom charger which can provide 126V (like the fast one I have with adjustable voltage) - or Kingsong to send a better charger.
Maybe when eWheels ships its very early batch to their customers, which I heard is planned in only a few weeks. These should get actual 126V chargers, right?

However is there a link between the unclear statements which were made regarding boards and 126V from the first 3 meters (makes no sense to me whatsoever) and the fact Kingsong shipped these prototypes with chargers not outputting 126V. Probably not, but hopefully that'll be clarified later.

According to eevees latest video, the ewheels batch is a special batch of the same wheels sent to all the distributors. So most likely will contain the same charger.

[Rolzi]

12 minutes ago, supercurio said:

3: by means of firmware upgrade later on in the high speed motor torque is not adjust output current optimization program, let customers upgrade firmware upgrade way behind 
 

My translation. With current firmware, torque has not been adjusted yet. It will be fixed for customers with firmware upgrade later.

 

[supercurio]

13 minutes ago, Rolzi said:

The thing is some really want to believe that 2220Wh with this particular wheel is no better than 1800wh or even 1500wh. If we get the tiltback reduced to 3.0v from 3.15 I don't think there is going to be anything mysterious if we have identical riding, weather, weight etc.

This is the confidence many are lacking.

You're probably right and I hope to be wrong indeed 😊

I don't even understand how that would make sense anyway, a fat knobby tire and somewhat less efficient high voltage MOSFETs should not introduce a 25-40% increase in Wh/km.

Like @Flying W: Looking forward to tests form a full charge whenever a 126V charger gets distributed, and maybe take a look at this Smart BMS balancing these cells around 4.2V!

[Paul A]

@RagingGrandpa

Active suspension.

Member Planemo posted this on the thread a few pages ago.

Could be used on an EUC?

https://www.ridefox.com/content.php?c=livevalve-bike

[Planemo]

37 minutes ago, Eucner said:

That's correct for drag force, for power it is 8x.

Damn I forgot that! Cheers, you're of course right, which goes to show how much people don't take power requirements at speed into account!

[Rolzi]

27 minutes ago, supercurio said:

I don't even understand how that would make sense anyway, a fat knobby tire and somewhat less efficient high voltage MOSFETs should not introduce a 25-40% increase in Wh/km.

Agreed.

I am currently riding icy conditions with 35 Wh/km at 10 mph on my MSP.

So 23 Wh/km at 15.6 mph sure does sound great to me.

But then again this is me:

MSP C38 has 23.9 Wh/km average, gasp. Manage your expectations y'all.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Rolzi

[EMA]

4 hours ago, Planemo said:

Coils will ALWAYS give a more compliant ride on all terrains, but the downside is they have to be specced to the riders weight to provide the correct sag. Other than that, coil will always be better, discounting that they are slightly heavier but even that has been minimised nowadays.

if this was true all MTB shocks should be Coils, quite the opposite in reality, they are used in DH for a reason...

i agree with you on some points, maybe it's still the best option for a wheel, time will tell

 

Edited February 23, 2022 by EMA

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, Rolzi said:

MSP C38 has 23.9 Wh/km average, gasp. Manage your expectations y'all.

I'd been thinking about what to expect, so I made a new topic to see if we could collect some real world info. I'm rather an anomaly, evidently I should be doing marketing sponsored range tests!!! (any manufacturers that would like to engage me are welcome to DM)

 

 

[Planemo]

1 minute ago, EMA said:

if this was true all MTB shocks should be Coils, quite the opposite in reality, they are used in DH for a reason...

maybe it's still the best option for a wheel, time will tell

????? 

Nearly all MTB shocks found on bikes are air because the manufacturers have to build bikes capable of dealing with buyers of vastly different weights.

They are primarily used in DH only because downhillers want the best suspension control they can get and dont give a stuff that they need to faff with a few springs to get the sag correct.

But plenty of enduro and sometimes even trail riders will swop out their air shocks for coil, just because they want max suppleness. I've even considered it myself and I wouldn't say I ride DH.

I'm not going to say whether most EUC riders will feel the benefit of a coil. But theres no getting away from the fact that coils simply work better in all circumstances due, as I said before, to zero stiction. I notice stiction even on my non DH bike, and it annoys me.

[RagingGrandpa]

3 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Retrofit car parts to an EUC? Nearly impossible...

Added to the design by the EUC company? It's possible... but bear in mind it would require a shock with electrically-actuated damping bypass valves, and also an additional accelerometer in the unsprung part of the suspension. Both add cost & complexity.

Since we don't have these adaptive damper parts available in other higher-volume small vehicles like MTB and eScooter, it would be almost unthinkable for an EUC company to create it from scratch and proliferate it in the market.

Being able to use standard MTB shocks is the cornerstone of today's KS and GW/BG suspension concepts. And thank goodness they do, since I don't trust either of them to create a custom damper with any level of reliability  

2 hours ago, Paul A said:

Could be used on an EUC?

https://www.ridefox.com/content.php?c=livevalve-bike

Right, it's exactly what I mean: dampers with electrically-adjustable valves, sensors at the wheels, and some additional control logic.

(Beware the marketing buzzwords... "adaptive" "active" "dynamic" etc are all words describing the same concept of electrically-variable damping.)

Fox Live Valve MTB products began in 2018- are they proliferating in the MTB community now?

[Rolzi]

 

[Tawpie]

TBH, I’m starting to get worried. Far too many effusive reviewers. KS absolutely must be hiding something awful if they so easily agree to new screws and front handles and over the air firmware fixes.

I mean, how realistic is it to expect a pre production demo shipment to shrug off pouring rain, mud, falling down concrete steps, overheat hill (not confirmed, maybe it burned to a crisp?), NYC style, London urban, and so on. Surely there’s another shoe to drop.

It’s getting increasingly troubling… what will it be?

Edited February 23, 2022 by Tawpie

[buffs]

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

TBH, I’m starting to get worried. Far too many effusive reviewers. KS absolutely must be hiding something awful if they so easily agree to new screws and front handles and over the air firmware fixes.

I mean, how realistic is it to expect a pre production demo shipment to shrug off pouring rain, mud, falling down concrete steps, overheat hill (not confirmed, maybe it burned to a crisp?), NYC style, London urban, and so on. Surely there’s another shoe to drop.

It’s getting increasingly troubling… what will it be?

KS must be hiding something?? seriously, or is this supposed to be a joke?

these are pre-production wheels that have been made available around the world for people to test. problems are found and reported. KS makes changes to address them. isn't this the desired and expected process? would you feel better if KS didn't agree to better screws or the improved front bumper? firmware changes/fixes are always in play for a new wheel.

unless you're trying to be funny and i'm not getting it, i have no idea where your "worry" and declaration that KS is "hiding something awful" comes from.

[Mango]

This wheel is at least 6-9 months away from being a great wheel, what with all the pre-production issues it’s having.

Likely Spring 2023 will be the version to buy, until then I’ll be holding off.

I feel the Begode Master, when enough social media influencers ride it, will be the suspension wheel of 2022.

[Tawpie]

48 minutes ago, buffs said:

KS must be hiding something?? seriously, or is this supposed to be a joke?

Sorry, it is sort of a joke but not entirely? I'm so used to new wheels look promising up to the point where common people actually rode them. V11's ride-in-the-rain issue, Sherman's too-small-motor-wire, MPro so disappointing that SpeedyFeet didn't carry it for a while, V12 gone radio silent, S18 suspension rebuilds, 16X water issues, Abrams totaled after a ¿cutout?, Begode shells, Sherman rims... I fully expected KS to have more than one big wart uncovered in this pre-production run but YT reviewers seem to be falling in love with this. And KS appears to be engaged and taking steps to deal with the issues that have been surfaced, which is totally welcomed, but still, it's unusual.

I am betting the value of my car that KS is showing the way here: do your engineering properly, make rapid adjustments when issues arise because there will be issues. I'm just not used to seeing it play out in real life in the EUC arena. I certainly don't want to have problems with my new toy, but it's a little disconcerting to hear so many people say it's "that good". I'm rarely lucky enough to have taken a flier on a first gen product that actually wows in IRL. 🤞

(wait a minute: you can't actually take it swimming... there is that)

Edited February 23, 2022 by Tawpie

[Rolzi]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

This wheel is at least 6-9 months away from being a great wheel, what with all the pre-production issues it’s having.

Likely Spring 2023 will be the version to buy, until then I’ll be holding off.

I feel the Begode Master, when enough social media influencers ride it, will be the suspension wheel of 2022.

I find this quite ironic.

You would say master will have the upper hand in 22. The wheel that is in no one's hands and we have absolutely no idea about as to its quality or problems it might have.

Instead of S20 which is already actively being tested and made better for the first batch.

It's been pretty lopsided on social media polls from what i have seen as to which wheel people are saying they are going to get.

With that said.

PLEASE don't buy a wheel that doesn't go as fast you need and try to ride it that fast anyway.

PLEASE get a Master or similar if you need 70+kmh/45+mph wheel.

 

PS. I am quite interested in how fast Ian can empty the battery on the Master. Under 25 miles?

Edited February 23, 2022 by Rolzi

[Freeforester]

Looked on in a positive light (never thought I’d suggest this,lol!) if, as Afeez suggests, they are looking for constructive criticism and or suggestions, then a ‘to-do list’ drawn up in order to improve the final product, by real life riders in the potential customer base and community can only help both now and down the road. One example I’ve been pondering is whether there might be a way to both protect the very vulnerable looking damper reservoir and also offer an extended area for the seat in order for anyone taller than 5’7” to stand a chance of being able to apply the brakes effectively whilst seated -this might mean a bit more of an inverted triangle  or frame on either side of the non moving part of the rear chassis to help support some sort of extension to the rear part of the seat area as well as offering protection to the aforementioned reservoir in the event of a real life tumble at more than 3mph. Only an idea, but you get the idea, if we speak up now, and KS are sincere, we might just get the wheel we all wish for. Many of my own suggestions (eg screw caps for the charge ports) don’t add significantly to the overall cost, but added all together help make a great product that bit better than the next one which will be snapping at its heels. ‘Upside down’ charge ports are likely to drop push fit covers at the next bump in the road, screw cap ones not so much; they’re made in their thousands over there, why not enhance and protect one of the wheel’s vulnerable underbelly parts while we are at it? It takes but one tumble and splash in the off-road scenario and the motherboard could be fried, not necessarily in a convenient location - if it is a serious off road wheel, why not protect its vulnerabilities all round? We all potentially benefit from such small changes for the better.     You get the idea, I’m sure, let’s help KS to get it too as long as they’re in the listening mood -positive rant over!

[Forwardnbak]

I’m still happy my deposit is down (nearly all paid now) 

I haven’t been at this long so you all know more than me.

I’m pretty happy with everything Kingsong have done here. They have been open and offering real world tests for others to point out flaws to the wider public , nearly all things they have offered to correct on production. I feel this kind of openness begs of confidence, maybe they will deliver?

range looks a little worrying.

 

I’ve seen heaps of wheels released in the year I’ve been doing this. I quick image, hype, things go quiet, then a big release, cut outs. 
V12-Abrams

FIRES

I still see teething problems with sherman rims, v11 bearings and boards and these have had the time to iron the kinks.

 

id rather see kinks now, than wait to be surprised. To me I feel other wheels have known issues and just released rather secretive without the open display of the wheel first. issues like cut out and rims to me seem bigger than some of the KS problems talked about. 
 

I felt it and it really seems to be a great wheel. I am sure there are still kinks. 

[Paul A]

 

[supercurio]

Mike Leahy fell with the S20 in a fountain yesterday: https://www.instagram.com/reel/CaSjLClp7fD/

 

 

Here's the description:

I rode this sketchy fountain line just fine in the other direction. Went back for another shot and got my foot snagged by the bush. Both myself and the s20 were then fully submerged in over a foot of water.
I tried to turn the wheel off after pulling it out of the fountain, but was not able to. I brought the wheel to @nate.pust and @dougs_eucventure who quickly pulled out the controller and batteries. The demo packs that were not sealed were both damaged by water but did not catch fire. RevRides will know more about the specifics. As I am not a technical expert.

 

I imagined that the transparent plastic boxes of the packs would be sealed and waterproof, given humidity or water can get in the mainboard section via the motor wires then go down with the battery wires.
Although it's not the first time that water can get in and destroy battery packs, and wheels unfortunately rarely survive being immersed in any capacity, I was hoping for something a little better here.
I read somewhere that the next iterations were supposed to be shrink-wrapped as well but can't find the source anymore.

What do you guys think?

Edited February 24, 2022 by supercurio

[5Cauac]

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

(wait a minute: you can't actually take it swimming... there is that)

@supercurio I was looking for that vid to respond to @Tawpie's comment and couldn't find it.  Thanks! 

[supercurio]

8 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Okay so they did a re-edit to correct the mistaken description of "30 mph average", while the data shows 15.4 mph average riding, 12.8 mph average for the ride.
Yay, right?

Now the commentary says at 2:59 instead "The riders attempted to maintain a speed of 25 mph"

[Paul A]

18xl has 1540Wh

S20 has 2200Wh

Lots of variables in every ride, range test.

Temperature, terrain, speed, wind, etc.

Greater battery ratio capacity of 1.42 is most relevant.

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

What do you guys think?

I would hope for something better as well, but am expecting to see blue shrink-wrap in my wheel. Batch n, maybe the battery case is more moisture/humidity resistant, but my wheel will probably spend its life relatively sheltered from the elements and it'll probably be inspected during its monthly 'grease the slides' maintenance cycle.

I should probably throw some of those "Do Not Eat" packets in so I have something rattling around inside there. (kidding, just kidding. I'd tape them in)

[Paul A]