Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Lex Smith]

I wish manufacturers would adopt the attitude of "what is the largest screw/bolt we could use" in each usage scenario rather than the smallest they can get away with.  Would cure a lot of problems I believe and I would gladly pay the extra $10 it would cost.

I think one of the main take aways from the video is that an impact driver or rattle gun as we call them is an essential tool kit item for EUC maintenance.   Oh and invest in a decent Japanese,American or German set of hex driver bits.  Your typical Aliexpress offering is only going to lead to frustration. 

[EDCampstore]

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

However, it is always prudent to get the servicing instructions from the manufacturer, if available. 

Although this is not the “American way” of approaching this problem 😂, it is certainly a prudent approach. In the motorcycling world, we call them “Factory Service Manuals”. 

[Tawpie]

Absolutely you have to have good fitting tools. i'm not a fan of powered drivers for my wheels, they can get away from me too easily and cause fastener damage or wheel damage before I can let go of the trigger. The really funny thing is because the fasteners are generally not the best that money can buy, the tool that fits best might be a cheap driver and not the precision Wiha... because the fastener isn't made to spec!

I'll make sure the fastener is loose, then finish removal with a power driver... but I never try to break a screw free with a power tool. Same on insertion: power driver to get it 80% installed, then finish by hand.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Tawpie

[techyiam]

5 hours ago, supercurio said:

What surprised me is that it was still necessary to heat these screws.

 

Aside from the screw concerns, the S20 doesn't look too bad if you compare to the V12!
 

I am not surprised since I believe Kingsong is serious about making a durable off-road euc.

Ironically, I prefer to work on the V12 than the T3. The V12 is not more complex but has more of a western company quality to it. I would also add that the 18XL can be considered to have a better build quality than the T3, but it is still below the V12, IMHO.

If the driver board crisis is fully resolved, and the fixed firmware released, I think the V12 is going to be quite stellar overall (at least for those who like 16" wheels).  I am hoping that the S20 will be even better than the V12. I am quite anxious to buy a new wheel. The addiction is real.

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, EDCampstore said:

Although this is not the “American way” of approaching this problem 😂, it is certainly a prudent approach. In the motorcycling world, we call them “Factory Service Manuals”. 

I believe we are a very long ways off from that. Just image the dealers were not only not able to get a shock pressure-rider weight chart for the Hero, they can't even get a starting point for any weight rider except for one rider weight, Begode's test rider.

Edited February 21, 2022 by techyiam

[Paul A]

 

[Paul A]

 

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

the dealers were not only not able to get a shock pressure-rider weight chart for the Hero, they can't even get a starting point for any weight rider except for one rider weight, Begode's test rider.

I think this is because shock setup is 100% tailored to each individual rider, so I'm going to follow the advice given by the mtb crews for setting up coil-over shocks namely:

• set tire pressure to allow turning the way I like it (get the desired tire profile, protect the rim etc.)
• compression to as low as it goes (most squishy)
• rebound damping to as fast as it goes (max pogo stick)
• set spring preload so that when I stand carefully on the wheel the shock goes to 20-30% of its max travel
• do some drops that I plan to do, I'll ride off curbs... increase rebound damping until the pogo stick effect is reduced to the level I like
• adjust compression "to taste", depending on riding conditions. It'll be 'hard' for crazy accelerations, softer for generally ok roads, softer still for gnarly drops

It would be really cool if the compression was auto-adjusted when you accelerate hard but that's something for 2024. Some mtb shocks do have 'lever activated' models that give you a control on the bar to set the compression without fiddling with the shock itself.

[Paul A]

Active suspension.

Could it just be easily transplanted from cars to EUCs?

 

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

...

set tire pressure to allow turning the way I like it (get the desired tire profile, protect the rim etc.)

• compression to as low as it goes (most squishy)
• rebound damping to as fast as it goes (max pogo stick)
• set spring preload so that when I stand carefully on the wheel the shock goes to 20-30% of its max travel
• do some drops that I plan to do, I'll ride off curbs... increase rebound damping until the pogo stick effect is reduced to the level I like
• adjust compression "to taste", depending on riding conditions. It'll be 'hard' for crazy accelerations, softer for generally ok roads, softer still for gnarly drops.

I do ride dual suspension mountain bikes and motorcycles, but no experience on suspension  euc's. This is a good sensible, systematic series of steps to arrive at a good starting point for mtb. So without knowing any better, I too would probably start out with settings derive from my experiences on mtb's.

Edited February 21, 2022 by techyiam

[Curt8892]

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

I think this is because shock setup is 100% tailored to each individual rider, so I'm going to follow the advice given by the mtb crews for setting up coil-over shocks namely:

• set tire pressure to allow turning the way I like it (get the desired tire profile, protect the rim etc.)
• compression to as low as it goes (most squishy)
• rebound damping to as fast as it goes (max pogo stick)
• set spring preload so that when I stand carefully on the wheel the shock goes to 20-30% of its max travel
• do some drops that I plan to do, I'll ride off curbs... increase rebound damping until the pogo stick effect is reduced to the level I like
• adjust compression "to taste", depending on riding conditions. It'll be 'hard' for crazy accelerations, softer for generally ok roads, softer still for gnarly drops

It would be really cool if the compression was auto-adjusted when you accelerate hard but that's something for 2024. Some mtb shocks do have 'lever activated' models that give you a control on the bar to set the compression without fiddling with the shock itself.

Great advice. I did the curb test with my S18 and the difference on the trails was like night and day.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Curt8892

[fbhb]

18 hours ago, Rolzi said:

I am going to repeat a bit that i wrote earlier.

With this new video from euc upgrades i see no reason why this would not work:

 

Remove three screws each side that connect the suspension to the motor frame. Motor would already come out from bottom if it wasn´t for motor wire.

Take out the screws needed to detach the whole upper unit with electronics.

Disconnect the wires.

Remove the whole motor frame from the bottom. Let the upper unit go through rest of the wheel with the motor wire. Alternatively you can disconnect the motor wires if you want.

Remove the plastic motor wire guides and remove the fender.

You now have access to the rim and tire. No need to remove the frames from the motor.

I am in total agreement with @Rolzi regarding what he wrote above and posted my similar thoughts here previously. I too made the same observation in thinking the S20 motor would be much easier to remove from the bottom!

The included photo helps to show how the whole motor/slider assembly would be extracted with very minimal work involved, especially compared to Kevin's unnecessary Full strip down!

Surely King Song did Not intend for a major strip down for tire changes/puncture repairs??!!

The countersunk socket cap screws he claimed to be the wrong type of bolt, would have been purposely chosen due to minimal clearance for the sliding assembly to clear the inside face of the battery compartment.

The Full sized deep socket head cap screws that he states should have been used would require a huge redesign, to allow adequate clearance. Maybe even needing the S20 to be made even wider than it is already and absolutely No one would want that!

My thoughts are that the currently specced countersunk cap screws, correctly torqued will prove to be sufficient, given that their taper offers a greater clamping surface area than the much narrower shoulder of a regular socket head screw.

As long as high quality fasteners are used in Final production, it should be All Good IMO.

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by fbhb

[Brendan "nog3" Halliday]

13 hours ago, Rolzi said:

I am going to repeat a bit that i wrote earlier.

With this new video from euc upgrades i see no reason why this would not work:

 

Remove three screws each side that connect the suspension to the motor frame. Motor would already come out from bottom if it wasn´t for motor wire.

Take out the screws needed to detach the whole upper unit with electronics.

Disconnect the wires.

Remove the whole motor frame from the bottom. Let the upper unit go through rest of the wheel with the motor wire. Alternatively you can disconnect the motor wires if you want.

Remove the plastic motor wire guides and remove the fender.

You now have access to the rim and tire. No need to remove the frames from the motor.

I don't want to shit on a fellow repair guy in the trenches, but this is the approach I would have taken to getting the motor out as well.

I've tested the outer bolts he was having trouble with and had no issues with cracking them loose by hand with a t-handled allen wrench, I suspect he might have gotten a little too enthusiastic with the drill driver and chewed them out. I've done the same in the past unintentionally but the process should always be to try and jolt the bolts (with a hammer or hand impact driver) to release any seized ones before applying a drill.

This all being said, it's a good example of the average wear and issues the average user will come across when attempting to service their wheels. A better head or alloy would definitely be an improvement here.

[Freeforester]

On 1/26/2022 at 1:59 AM, eucVibes said:

Remix 

 

At 1:22 or so the wet sticky stuff seems to shine over the whole length of one the screws shown being inserted that later defeated Kevin’s attempt to unscrew.      It must be remembered that whilst most home mechanics will be much more likely to be concerned with tyre changing, which has been outlined as a separate and different  procedure, his brief was to open up the motor to investigate the knocking/clicking sound, something instructed by Kingsong themselves in their earlier discussion with Afeez (Kingsong Diaries episode no. 2) AND that Kevin’s video serves as ‘fair warning’ to the community of what they might well have encountered should the motor issue not be investigated and resolved in the meantime. In highlighting the disassembly difficulties, I feel he has done us all a massive favour, and it was  ‘fortunate’ too for us that this issue came up on Afeez’s test wheel, but Afeez does indeed mention in ep. 2 that the knocking issue has been reported back to KS by other testers, so it is not an isolated issue, and again good - essential - to investigate and resolve prior to the first full production run, surely.                   Oh, maybe we could hear any views about the apparent burrs round the hexagonal hole on the nearmost rear suspension fixing, as shown at 00:57 - 1:00 - just a trick of camera/lighting, poor alloy, or other?

Edited February 22, 2022 by Freeforester

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, fbhb said:

I am in total agreement with @Rolzi regarding what he wrote above and posted my similar thoughts here previously. I too made the same observation in thinking the S20 motor would be much easier to remove from the 

Me three, after you two have pointed that out again, and me having watched Kevin's video again. 

Good detective work.

Having said that, Kingsong could have informed Kevin about the S20's unprecedented, simpler tire change procedure. Not only will this save Kevin time, but also save him from grief since he would not have to deal with fasteners coated with permanent thread locking compound if the conventional disassembly procedure is used. With a stronger locking compound, Kingsong can provide a more durable product without affecting service since those fasteners don't need to be removed for regular maintenance and repairs. 

From what I can gather from watching his video, he has been wrenching euc's for a while. He has seen many a time how tire changes are done. He has build up a level of expectation. Out of the blue, wiithout warning, comes S20 with no instructions. I can now see why he reacted the way he did in the video.

[Freeforester]

This would make wheel removal a simpler procedure, that is not in dispute, however, it was, again, the motor which was to be investigated, not the tyre.  But let’s agree we go with the modular breakdown, and we’ve now got the wheel assembly with the sub chassis attached free, and the rest of the unit (battery casing etc) intact: we’re still going to have to remove these central four screws on the wire-in-out side of the wheel. Does this in any way lessen the hold of these four bearing screws?

[techyiam]

Opening up a motor should not be considered regular maintenance nor normal repair. Kevin was asked to investigate a motor defect.

For the average owner, once he has the wheel assembly out, would he not just send it to where it bought it from?

Edited February 22, 2022 by techyiam

[Rawnei]

Riders changing rims or bearings themselves is not unheard of and needs to be possible.

[techyiam]

There are motorcycle and car owners who rebuild their engines. But these owners aren't unskilled in this type of work, nor poorly equipped tool wise. One can wing it I suppose. I guess there are always YouTube videos if they exist.

The Kingsong production assembly video showed how one axle screw was screwed in. What do you see here that makes it impossible to remove. 

Owners who are successful changing  bearings are not going to be stumped by these four axle bolts. I doubt they need you to worry for them either.

Edited February 22, 2022 by techyiam

[supercurio]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

Opening up a motor should not be considered regular maintenance nor normal repair. Kevin was asked to investigate a motor defect.

For the average owner, once he has the wheel assembly out, would he just send it to where it bought it from?

I remember knocking noise being a thing with the S18 as discussed in this thread:

Kevin will be the person the wheel is sent to for repairs, so if he can't get into the motor that'll be a problem that'll increase downtime or cost significantly.

And just like @Rawnei said, swapping a rim because it's cracked or too bent as well replacing bearings (S20 design is not yet proven on that) are both common operations.

I swapped bearings on my 16X myself for instance.

So if any issue with the motor (suspicious sound), the rim or bearings requires a new motor + left and right frames 😬 it's gonna get expensive!

Edited February 22, 2022 by supercurio

[Rolzi]

2 hours ago, Freeforester said:

This would make wheel removal a simpler procedure, that is not in dispute, however, it was, again, the motor which was to be investigated, not the tyre.  But let’s agree we go with the modular breakdown, and we’ve now got the wheel assembly with the sub chassis attached free, and the rest of the unit (battery casing etc) intact: we’re still going to have to remove these central four screws on the wire-in-out side of the wheel. Does this in any way lessen the hold of these four bearing screws?

"The production wheels will not have this problem"

If the do, we can call Kevin a liar and be sad/angry.

[mrelwood]

The V11 originally had a similar issue, where the axle bolts were essentially glued in place with permanent threadlocker. As the bearing issue came up, motor replacement became a job that several customers had to do themselves. The original threadlocker was impossible to get loosened up, as no amount of heat seemed to reach the threadlocker inside a large aluminum block of a hollow bore axle. Therefore the replacement motor came with the sliding assembly readily attached.

Inmotion soon changed into a less permanent threadlocker, which it has been using successfully to this day. Loose motor bolts seemed only to be an issue on units made during the transformation period, where some units had little to no threadlocker in place. The rest have seemed to hold up just fine.

I can’t see a reason for KS not to switch to regular threadlocker. Or even locking washers, if the room permits.

[techyiam]

4 hours ago, supercurio said:

I remember knocking noise being a thing with the S18 as discussed in this thread.

But did you read the last post in the S18 knocking noise thread that you referred to? It was resolved by sending the wheel back to eWheels for repair. And it was successfully repaired by eWheels. eWheels did not sent out a new motor nor the owner opened up the motor himself.

You are making up numerous negative outcomes after assuming that the S20 motor cannot be opened up for repairs. Has Kingsong officially verified this to be the case. No chance right? They themselves have asked Afeez's tech to open one up. 

You may have changed wheel bearings successfully, but you have not failed to open up a S20 motor either. I fail to see your point.

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by techyiam

[techyiam]

The novel slider used in the S20 facilitates quick tire removal. There is no need to worry about oil leaks. It uses grease. Additionally, it uses four sliding friction elements made from polymers per side. Since it of an open design, unlike front forks, or links and pin joints, its sliding surfaces are exposed to the environment. This suspension design should be cost effective. There will be some stiction. But the question that needs to be answered is how durable is it, and how much maintenance is required.?

Edited February 23, 2022 by techyiam

[Rawnei]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

For the average owner, once he has the wheel assembly out, would he not just send it to where it bought it from?

 

7 minutes ago, techyiam said:

But did you read the last post in the S18 knocking noise thread that you referred to? It was resolved by sending the wheel back to eWheels for repair. And it was successfully repaired by eWheels. eWheels did not sent out a new motor nor the owner open up the motor himself.

Not everyone has a service center near them or the possibility to "just send it back" for easy and cost-effective service, a lot of people have no choice but to service their wheels themselves.