Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[techyiam]

Talking about suspension maintenance...

Which front fork would allow dirt and other debris to collect so that the rail and slider can get jammed up, thus locking up the suspension? This is way pass worrying about stiction, abrasion and wear. To actually clear the jam properly would require nontrivial amount of work on the S20/22. 

On the V11, at least there is a partition separating the open sliders from the wheel.

Nope, not on the S20/22. Not only do the open channels of the suspension sliders face the wheel, there are no partitions separating the open sliders and the wheel. So dirt and debris that get kicked up by the tire can get onto the sliding surfaces of the bushings, and the sliders. But that is not all, yup, right from the factory they lube the sliders moving parts with grease. The stuff that attracts dust, dirt and other small particles.

Would the sealed sliders on the Master require less maintenance? Hmmmm, I wonder. I guess time will tell.

Edited April 27, 2022 by techyiam

[Curt8892]

Is it imperative that the batteries be unplugged from the motherboard before you unplug the motor. 
 

If it is the case you can unplug the motor without unplugging the batteries from the motherboard you would not need to open the motherboard box of the unit. You should be able to have a connector (waterproof) that can be disconnected from outside of the motherboard box. 
 

is this possible?

[chanman]

Some pedal dip when climbing can actually be beneficial in getting the leverage you want for comfort, (think soft mode). I'm not totally convinced that this is an overpower situation and not a firmware feature. I want to say that the V12 has a similar intentional feature (although i would like to avoid making comparisons to the V12 given the board issues it shipped with)

Maybe needs to be tuned to be more subtle if was in hard mode at the time in ginger's case.

 

I do recall seeing actual overpower pedal dip on old KS firmware on a 16x and it was more scary looking. I guess only way to be 100% sure is to power through hard and see if it dumps you, which from a stop probably won't be too bad haha. 

I think this was eventually fixed with firmware updates.

Edited April 26, 2022 by chanman

[Rollin-on-1]

2 hours ago, Tawpie said:

This is part of the reason I'm keeping my hard tail 16X (that is quite smooth on 2.09 FWIW!).

A bit off topic, but I think I am still on 2.03 on my 16x.  What benefits does 2.09 bring?  Curious if it is worth the update...

Feel free to message me directly so we don't totally hijack the thread.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Rollin-on-1

[Miko.cz]

5 hours ago, supercurio said:

Confusing no doubt.

My hearth is bleeding when I read/hear  "I have the last firmware statement" without specific ID
FW was actual for his update tool in exact moment. It could be recalled, quickly fixed and replaced, selective distributed, hardware revision related or even just not offered because of some administration mistake. Week later it could be hard to find what did he have. Another level is how precise manufacture is (builds vs release vs beta marking to avoid any mistakes)

Edited April 26, 2022 by Miko.cz

[Rawnei]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Would the sealed sliders on the Master require less maintenance? Hmmmm, I wonder. I guess time will tell.

They are not really sealed though, it's just a tube in a tube and chances are that dust and dirt will find itself in there as well, so the question is more how difficult it is to do maintenance and how often one has to do it.

[Robse]

1 hour ago, Rawnei said:

They are not really sealed though, it's just a tube in a tube and chances are that dust and dirt will find itself in there as well, so the question is more how difficult it is to do maintenance and how often one has to do it.

I see - next step is "fork dirt guard" ... same problems with oils seals on mc front fork dampers - if you dont keep them clean, the oil seals will develop small cracks and oil leaks ..   rock-shock socks ;-)    somehow i am very very satisfied with my also hard tail 16X

 

[Forwardnbak]

also not wanting to spend everyday cleaning the suspension tracks it does make me think how I kind of enjoy this kind of maintenance.

That Zen of motorbike chain clean and lube, checking over your forks etc.

simple ish jobs that make me feel good for looking after my little baby. Then knowing it all flows ok.  

[Blunzn]

4 hours ago, Curt8892 said:

If it is the case you can unplug the motor without unplugging the batteries from the motherboard you would not need to open the motherboard box of the unit. You should be able to have a connector (waterproof) that can be disconnected from outside of the motherboard box. 
 

is this possible?

yes, you can unplug the motor/hallsensor wires from the underside of the mainboardbox with just 4screws. no need to open/remove the top of the mainboard box/lipo compartments. 

 

 

 

then you would need to unscrew the 6 screws on the backside where you lower/raise the suspension.

 

with the old S20 batterylid you had to remove it too.

one of the changes for the S22 is a modified batterylid which can stay on while removing the tire.

 

maybe its easier to first unscrew the suspension and sliding the tire out a bit. then there should be more space to unscrew/remove the motor wires.

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by Blunzn

[Curt8892]

42 minutes ago, Blunzn said:

yes, you can unplug the motor/hallsensor wires from the underside of the mainboardbox with just 4screws. no need to open/remove the top of the mainboard box/lipo compartments. 

 

 

 

then you would need to unscrew the 6 screws on the backside where you lower/raise the suspension.

 

with the old S20 batterylid you had to remove it too.

one of the changes for the S22 is a modified batterylid which can stay on while removing the tire.

 

maybe its easier to first unscrew the suspension and sliding the tire out a bit. then there should be more space to unscrew/remove the motor wires.

 

Thank you. I have been saying this for some time and everyone has been saying you have to remove the battery connections and take the suspension system apart. 
 

I was thinking it would be good to have a sealed connected coming from the motherboard box  the wire would be waterproofed so and it would have a female connector to the motor wire that would have the male connector.  

 

[techyiam]

Here is the Hero's sliders in action. The Master's should be similar.

The 2nd video shows the S20/22's sliders in action.

6 hours ago, techyiam said:

Would the sealed sliders on the Master require less maintenance? Hmmmm, I wonder. I guess time will tell.

Both videos are Time-stamped. 

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2022 by techyiam

[jrhz06]

8 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Here is the Hero's sliders in action. The Master's should be similar.

The 2nd video shows the S20/22's sliders in action.

Both videos are Time-stamped. 

 

 

 

And one is brand new and the other is well used and abused. Not really a valid comparison.

[techyiam]

35 minutes ago, jrhz06 said:

And one is brand new and the other is well used and abused. Not really a valid comparison.

Time-stamped. 

 

 

[Curt8892]

34 minutes ago, jrhz06 said:

And one is brand new and the other is well used and abused. Not really a valid comparison.

Also you notice how thin the pistons are on the Hero. Prone to bending, Master’s piston is a lot bigger

Very interesting video. Looks like King Song put the work into their wheel and Begode took an easier path with better fire safety but an old tech that isn’t used in high performance wheels anymore. 

[techyiam]

5 minutes ago, Curt8892 said:

Also you notice how thin the pistons are on the Hero. Prone to bending, Master’s piston is a lot bigger

The crazy thing is the Master's MSRP is lower than the Hero's. Yet, Begode improved the slider design on the Master. Those stanchions on the Hero are made of steel, I believe, since they can rust. It appears the Master's stanchions are not magnetic, so they could be made from aluminium alloy, but in a larger diameter, since steel is a stronger structural material. It is generally much cheaper to make parts from steel than from aluminium alloy. In addition, the Master's stanchions have a chrome finish. That must have cost a pretty penny. Since the stanchions are sprung weight, having lighter stanchions is definitely a plus.

[chanman]

Personally I don't see the fire safety argument to having the 33V packs in the master. A single 4.2V cell can make a pretty spectacular burnout if you short it. I guess you can't shock yourself as bad working on it.

[Esash]

34 minutes ago, techyiam said:

The crazy thing is the Master's MSRP is lower than the Hero's. Yet, Begode improved the slider design on the Master. Those stanchions on the Hero are made of steel, I believe, since they can rust. It appears the Master's stanchions are not magnetic, so they could be made from aluminium alloy, but in a larger diameter, since steel is a stronger structural material. It is generally much cheaper to make parts from steel than from aluminium alloy. In addition, the Master's stanchions have a chrome finish. That must have cost a pretty penny. Since the stanchions are sprung weight, having lighter stanchions is definitely a plus.

As a Hero owner with a bit of emotional investment, all I can come up with is that the Hero has CNC pedals stock, and the Master has die-cast pedals. I don't even know the difference but I think I might have heard CNC is better.

Other difference I see is better back splash/rain protection on the Hero.

Maybe the Master has less water resistance or body armor/crash resistance, and I'll check if the Master has USB outlet and speakers, but so far I can't see a ton that goes in favor of the Hero.

Other than narrower width and lower pedal stance.

Edit: no bluetooth speakers or usb outlet on the Master, but present on the Hero. This chart is incorrect about the Hero's USB outlet, and the weight is off by 10 lbs, so maybe some of the Master info is erroneous as well:

Edited April 27, 2022 by Esash

[Elliott Reitz]

On 4/25/2022 at 6:20 PM, Tawpie said:

KRAP! I've got master on the brain... 134.

Never mind! 

Yea metoo ... at least for a road wheel.  I do like the S20 off-road. 

[Paul A]

Suspension in cars don't get cleaned.  Different design?

[irmatt]

2 hours ago, Paul A said:

Suspension in cars don't get cleaned.  Different design?

Suspension in cars and trucks usually just bend (leaf springs or bushings) and the parts that move like the suspension dampers (I guess ball joints as well) have lots of rubber seals or shielding to properly keep out the dirt. 

The s22 has sliders that are very low profile so there is a lack of protection. (Weight and space restrictions)  So perhaps the dirt can act as sandpaper after while. 

I am curious to see the amount of maintenance we will be required to do to keep the suspension in acceptable condition.  Or maybe somebody will make a third party product that will be a nice upgrade. (If what KS provides is inadequate)

[mrelwood]

11 hours ago, Curt8892 said:

Is it imperative that the batteries be unplugged from the motherboard before you unplug the motor.

No, a quick connector is even much safer to use since users of various electronics skill levels don’t have to operate in the mainboard. I know of several V11 units that were bricked due to wrong or careless installment of the motor (and other) wires.

KS 16S had quick connectors for the motor, outside of the mainboard compartment.

 

11 hours ago, chanman said:

Some pedal dip when climbing can actually be beneficial in getting the leverage you want for comfort, (think soft mode). I'm not totally convinced that this is an overpower situation and not a firmware feature.

The pedal dip that happens on the S22 is clearly an uncontrolled one, as it will try to recover from the dip as fast as possible. Just like with the 16X ankle flick. No planned firmware feature would do that.

 

3 hours ago, chanman said:

Personally I don't see the fire safety argument to having the 33V packs in the master. A single 4.2V cell can make a pretty spectacular burnout if you short it.

Me neither. Overall there were quite a few other “almosts” in the video. But I find the fundamental root content to be an important one.

[techyiam]

8 hours ago, Esash said:

As a Hero owner with a bit of emotional investment, all I can come up with is that the Hero has CNC pedals stock, and the Master has die-cast pedals. I don't even know the difference but I think I might have heard CNC is better.

At the outset, I don't own either of the them. So I don't have any real experience with them. However, I have hopped on a Hero, and it was a pleasant experience. I noticed the refined, premium feel right away. It felt more refined and premium than the V12. I found it intuitive to adapt, unlike the V11 or V12. I like the balance of the wheel, and the pedal height didn't bother me.

As far as CNC goes, generally, a CNC part would be considered a more premium part than a die-cast counter part, and would cost more too.  Usually, CNC parts are parts that are machined out of billets. The problem with CNC parts is that the quality of the part is only as good as the quality of the billet.

Edited April 27, 2022 by techyiam

[Esash]

8 hours ago, techyiam said:

At the outset, I don't own either of the them. So I don't have any real experience with them. However, I have hopped on a Hero, and it was a pleasant experience. I noticed the refined, premium feel right away. It felt more refined and premium than the V12. I found it intuitive to adapt, unlike the V11 or V12. I like the balance of the wheel, and the pedal height didn't bother me.

As far as CNC goes, generally, a CNC part would be considered a more premium part than a die-cast counter part, and would cost more too.  Usually, CNC parts are parts that are machined out of billets. The problem with CNC parts is that the quality of the part is only as good as the quality of the billet.

Thanks for the kind words about the Hero. Yeah it feels like a luxury product for sure. And I think the beautiful Hero/Master design/form factor is going to be here for a while.

[Esash]

15 hours ago, techyiam said:

The crazy thing is the Master's MSRP is lower than the Hero's. Yet, Begode improved the slider design on the Master. Those stanchions on the Hero are made of steel, I believe, since they can rust. It appears the Master's stanchions are not magnetic, so they could be made from aluminium alloy, but in a larger diameter, since steel is a stronger structural material. It is generally much cheaper to make parts from steel than from aluminium alloy. In addition, the Master's stanchions have a chrome finish. That must have cost a pretty penny. Since the stanchions are sprung weight, having lighter stanchions is definitely a plus.

Not to sidetrack this S20 thread, but at this time stamp EUC Upgrades points out the superior handle quality of the Hero compared to his already broken plastic Master handle. The S20 seems pretty break-y too:

 

[jrhz06]

8 minutes ago, Esash said:

Not to sidetrack this S20 thread, but at this time stamp EUC Upgrades points out the superior handle quality of the Hero compared to his already broken plastic Master handle. The S20 seems pretty break-y too:

 

So help me understand how a comparison of two Begode handles let’s you come to the conclusion that the S20 handle is “breaky “?