Charging speed, any conclusions?

[null]

I'm not able to judge the quality or design of Veterans setup, but I'll trust them as long as there are no specific reasons not to.. The person arguing against 10A charging did so on basis that the thin cables where charging cables, which they aren't.

Also: I believe the confusion around 8A comes from the talk of 4 pin plugs, because AFAIK Veteran never mentioned that number officially.

The power dissipation is indeed quite different between 8A and 10A, I didn't know the formula, thank you. But I charge my 18XL at 9A (10A specs, 9A recommended by Seba who checked with thermal camera) while the Sherman doesn't get even get a little hot even after hours of 10A charge. I realise outer shell temp isn't the same as internal, but still, not even luke warm.

Anyhow, I normally charge at 5A, but as long as there is no hard evidence again max specs I'll do that when in a rush.

Edited November 19, 2020 by null

[Chriull]

8 hours ago, null said:

thin cables where accused of being a bottle neck

My answer 

8 hours ago, Chriull said:

charging and discharging uses the same wires.

is just half the truth

Remembered there were better hi res photos of the motherboard: (1)

 

Here one sees the 4 thick cables (2 red, 2 black on 2 XT60 connectors) going to the battery.

Below these are thinner cables leading to the GX connector

12 hours ago, null said:

- Anybody knows if they started using 4x pins on the GX charge plug like it was talked about?

which have to be connected on all 4 pins to stay (somewhat) within the specification.

So - the charging cables are still thinner as the battery cables. But hard to say if they are sufficient for 10A? At least there are 2 pairs in parallel - so could be enough, and since most presumably none of the 4 wires is leading to nowhere, this could be a strong sign that all 4 pins of the connector are used?!

BTW: beside this charging cables are two small connectors which, if i remember right are for the (really thin) communication wires with the two BMS.

 

Another nice detail to be seen is, that there is no (power) Mosfet on the BMS PCB; (2)

Which imho is really great!

Were should such a power transistor transfer his heat to within the plastic wrap... There should be no heating element together in a plastic pack with the Li Ion cells!

But there are 4 Mosfets between the charge and the battery wires on the motherboard - they all seem to be KIA3510A and presumably 2 in parallel per battery pack.

They are specified with 9mOhm on resistance - so 4.5mOhm for 2 in parallel makes

4.5mOhm * 8A/2 * 8A/2 ~ 0.07W

or 4.5mOhm * 10A/2 * 10A/2 ~0.11W

power to dissipate while charging. And this two times (once for each pack) - so 0.22W which should not really pose any problem?!

Although i have no idea were they are located - If there is any convection possible or the fans are active while charging and cooling these mosfets?

 

(1) from 

(2) from https://ecodrift.ru/2020/07/05/razbiraem-veteran-sherman-iz-pervoj-postavki-mnogo-udivitelnyh-otkrytij/

[null]

Thank you for this very nice overview!

Interesting about the charge mosfets. I believe the fans to be off when charging, but will check when I get the Sherman back together. They might be just slow, anyhow there is some airflow inside the housing. We might see some thermal imagery some day. As mentioned, it doesn't seem hot at all.

Regarding thin and thick cables, it was the signal cables down to the battery which where confounded with charge cables, and raised doubt about "fast" charging. The 2x2 wires from the charge ports could still be soldered to 2 pins each, but I don't know about that. Such parallel solutions are anyway a bit scary in the sense that is one fails, the remaining route gets all the load.

[JetSerge]

I did a test with the fast charger where the amps can be controlled. With 13 amps Sherman stops charging in about a minute and displays the “E CHAr” message. With 12.5A it charges without stopping. I know some people who can charge at 15A. So it may depend on the specific unit. Mine stops charging with the same error within several seconds if I set the charger to 15A.

[null]

Anybody know if the recent Sherman units have double pinned GX16 ?
The first ones (mine) didn't have, nor the ones a few months in.

Are there any sources for the double pinned connectors and wiring around? I'd rather trust a professional solder than mine.

@JetSerge Thanks for sharing, careful not to get stuck on "e char" though, mine did after charger died.. Any idea if the ones taking 15A where newer or older production?

Edited January 25, 2021 by null

[JetSerge]

I didn't open my Sherman yet to verify how the connectors are wired. I've made the adapter with 2 pairs of wires for each connector, but not sure if only 1 pair is actually used.

As for the charging speed, there is a theory that Sherman limits the watts, so the max amps that can be used would depend on the state of charge (voltage).

Quote

it looks like it limits the watts, so at zero battery it can charge at 15A x 75V = 1125W. But at half the battery and higher it will stop and you will need to lower the amps. 95V x 12A = 1140W. My unit seems to stop at 1250-1300W.

My Sherman is from the one of the most recent batches (the one from the eWheels container that was on fire during transit because of the faulty Begode RS battery, still has the nasty smell).

Edited January 25, 2021 by JetSerge

[null]

16 minutes ago, JetSerge said:

I didn't open my Sherman yet to verify how the connectors are wired. I've made the adapter with 2 pairs of wires for each connector, but not sure if only 1 pair is actually used.

I guess it could be checked by looking for continuity between pin 1-2 and between 4-5 (Not saying you should do it, just mentioning) 

 

16 minutes ago, JetSerge said:

As for the charging speed, there is a theory that Sherman limits the watts, so the max amps that can be used would depend on the state of charge (voltage).

Indeed, that could be an explanation.
I'll probably get a 15A smart charger some time when the new board is in place, and do some tip-toed testing.
Thanks again for sharing.

Edited January 25, 2021 by null

[JetSerge]

4 minutes ago, null said:

I guess it could be checked easily by looking for continuity between pin 1-2 and 4-5 (Not saying you should do it, just mentioning it) 

Oh, indeed. Just tested, there is continuity between 1-2 and 4-5 pins on both connectors. So it looks like 4 pins are wired on each connector.

[null]

5 hours ago, JetSerge said:

there is continuity between 1-2 and 4-5 pins on both connectors.

Nice, whatever the cable is behind, at least they use two pins. Always welcome.

[Boogieman]

On 11/18/2020 at 9:06 PM, null said:

To unearth the thread LeaperKim now states 10A max charge since a while.

- Anybody knows if they started using 4x pins on the GX charge plug like it was talked about?
- Do the batteries charge and discharge by the same thick wires, the thin ones being signal wires? Or are the thin ones the charge cables?

Thanks for any info!

Doesn't look like it back then

[null]

2 hours ago, Boogieman said:

Doesn't look like it back then

No indeed, none back then. Luckily it seems the newer ones (a few months?) use double pinned. Someone also mentioned LK har updated their official rating to 11A but I havent seen it in person as their website only works half the time.

[ScottVal]

Sorry, I'm a little late to this conversation. I just want to know what charger, or chargers, I need to charge at max capacity and a link to get it, or them.

Thanks

ScottyDiver

[RagingGrandpa]

On 6/6/2021 at 8:50 PM, ScottVal said:

I just want to know what charger, or chargers, I need to charge at max capacity and a link to get it

ONLY if your Sherman's ports are double-pinned:

https://www.pmbatterychargers.com/900w-1008v-2a-6a-8a-current-adjustable-digital-display-partial-charge-lithium-li-ion-battery-charger-for-100v-gotway-free-shipping-p2874084.html

(Use two)

Be sure to select "GX-16 5pin 1+ 2+ and 4- 5-" to get the double-pinned cord.

[null]

Or any 100.8V 5A x2, or 10A if you are getting or making a splitter to spread it over the ports. Or you can put all the 10A over one (double pinned) port, though some people mean it gets a bit hot.

Edited June 12, 2021 by null

[Rawnei]

Regarding fans operating while charging the answer is yes, the other day was particularly hot here (28c outside) and when I got home to charge the wheel I could hear the fans quite loudly for the first time ever.

[MrRobot]

On the latest batch/recent batches what is the maximum amperage you can charge at? I've heard conflicting info from 12amp-14amp. I've heard some say newer ones like even less than 12 and I've heard some say that any Sherman's since the container fire are fine with up to 13.

Would I be safe with a stock charger and an ewheels fast charger (5+8) for a total of 13amps?

Does per port Vs split in two ports matter? I've heard of one guy charging 14 amps on one port. 

This question is mainly just for group rides. Don't plan on charging this fast regularly. Just want to know the limits. 

Edited August 23, 2021 by MrRobot

[Rawnei]

The manual says max 10A, although some people reporting it works fine up to 13A, I wouldn't go above 10A on one port.

[MrRobot]

What happens if I try charging with a stock charger one port (5amps) and an ewheels quick charger on the other (8 amps) for a total of 13 amps? 

 

Can it immediately fry the board or is it OK to just try it, keep an eye on it and then lower it if get the message? 

 

It will be a Sherman from the newest batch still waiting for it

[RagingGrandpa]

On 9/4/2021 at 1:15 PM, MrRobot said:

stock charger one port (5amps) and an ewheels quick charger on the other (8 amps) for a total of 13 amps

is it OK to just try it?

As long as your ports are double-pinned (I think all new Shermans are now), yes, safe to try.
The EUC will disable the charging session if it detects too much current, after which you can just unplug and try again.

[supercurio]

Thanks for all the discussions on this thread 

After a first long ride (152km) last week I experienced how dependent of the charging speed is how far you can go in a given amount of time.
When charging at 8A (5A stock + 3A Gotway) it looked like past the initial battery capacity, the time spent was 50% riding, 50% charging: https://euc.world/tour/601716328586291

So I'm looking into the type of charger Shane Hilde uses, which can deliver up to 25A at 100V (and can be adjusted up to 140V making them future proof - or at least S20 proof).
I'll report findings with the Sherman, hoping in best case for something close to 15A at lower voltages and 12A near max voltage, from what  @JetSergetheoreticized.

In any way it should be significantly faster than the current 8A, and lighter than a 9A charger + 3A or 5A charger.

[DjPanJan]

Nothing scientific last longer we charge Sherman and MSP around 55Km from home in public car AC Menekess charger.

Sherman on 5A stock charger and MSP with 4A(smart)+3A gotway original =7A this mean around 1300W say charger on wall.

In one hour we consume 1,5Kw together and both EUC was charged almost all +- 50Km ride back Sherman to 92% and MSP to 96%.

This is ok for me known i charge around 1km in one minute for real world planing.

 

  Charging cost me totaly with all fee(charger can be activated via phone only and this cost some mobile operator fee) but totaly is =  0,43/eur/dolar 1,5Kw

[MrRobot]

On 9/7/2021 at 11:48 AM, supercurio said:

Thanks for all the discussions on this thread 

After a first long ride (152km) last week I experienced how dependent of the charging speed is how far you can go in a given amount of time.
When charging at 8A (5A stock + 3A Gotway) it looked like past the initial battery capacity, the time spent was 50% riding, 50% charging: https://euc.world/tour/601716328586291

So I'm looking into the type of charger Shane Hilde uses, which can deliver up to 25A at 100V (and can be adjusted up to 140V making them future proof - or at least S20 proof).
I'll report findings with the Sherman, hoping in best case for something close to 15A at lower voltages and 12A near max voltage, from what  @JetSergetheoreticized.

In any way it should be significantly faster than the current 8A, and lighter than a 9A charger + 3A or 5A charger.

Wait what?? What kind of charger is this... Should I cancel my ewheels quick charger order?? 

[RagingGrandpa]

4 minutes ago, MrRobot said:

Wait what?? What kind of charger is this

https://www.eucaddict.com/blog/2020/10/looking-for-great-charger-for-yourhtml

5 minutes ago, MrRobot said:

Should I cancel my ewheels quick charger order??

Probably not... the ewheels / jia rui 900w charger is cheaper, lighter, and easier to use.

[div]

3 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

https://www.eucaddict.com/blog/2020/10/looking-for-great-charger-for-yourhtml

Probably not... the ewheels / jia rui 900w charger is cheaper, lighter, and easier to use.

Yes, on top of that @EUC Addict claimed the Chargery didn’t allow the Sherman to do cell balancing. We never got to know what it was the issue was though.

[MrRobot]

3 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

https://www.eucaddict.com/blog/2020/10/looking-for-great-charger-for-yourhtml

Probably not... the ewheels / jia rui 900w charger is cheaper, lighter, and easier to use.

I'm still not sure how the ewheels / Jia Rui charger does cell balancing if it cuts off all the electricity at the end of the charge?