The EUC forum dreams up their own manufacturer

[Patton250]

(Split off from Marty's Sherman topic)

On 7/17/2020 at 3:17 PM, Patton250 said:

I’m thinking why don’t you guys get together and purchase one of these companies? I’m getting the feeling that you could make these wheels infinitely better than Inmotion, Gotway and King Song. 

I gather by your lack of response you feel as if either I was either joking or that you guys couldn’t pull that off. However I’m dead serious. There’s a handful to 10 people I always see on this forum that continuously site engineering and scientific numbers showing how utterly stupid these companies are and how much better their products could be. Why not form a  group and make some superior wheels? At the very least a handful of you guys could design one on paper and sell the rights to one of the companies. Right? However I’m still thinking why couldn’t one of these things be made in Europe? That seems to be the area where most of the criticism comes from. 

Edited July 18, 2020 by meepmeepmayer

[shellac]

1 hour ago, Patton250 said:

I gather by your lack of response you feel as if either I was either joking or that you guys couldn’t pull that off. However I’m dead serious. There’s a handful to 10 people I always see on this forum that continuously site engineering and scientific numbers showing how utterly stupid these companies are and how much better their products could be. Why not form a  group and make some superior wheels? At the very least a handful of you guys could design one on paper and sell the rights to one of the companies. Right? However I’m still thinking why couldn’t one of these things be made in Europe? That seems to be the area where most of the criticism comes from. 

Isn’t there still a patent issue in the US where these wheels are still under patent by Inventist and you have to pay them hefty license fees? The patent system is utterly broken. 

[Mr A.A]

2 hours ago, Patton250 said:

I gather by your lack of response you feel as if either I was either joking or that you guys couldn’t pull that off. However I’m dead serious. There’s a handful to 10 people I always see on this forum that continuously site engineering and scientific numbers showing how utterly stupid these companies are and how much better their products could be. Why not form a  group and make some superior wheels? At the very least a handful of you guys could design one on paper and sell the rights to one of the companies. Right? However I’m still thinking why couldn’t one of these things be made in Europe? That seems to be the area where most of the criticism comes from. 

As far as I know, the main hurdle is the motherboard, everything else is available in the market or can be easily procured, like Hub motor, batteries, BMS. 

There was some interest in making an open source motherboard on this forum, but it went cold. I really wish to see some innovations in this regard,

A modifiable motherboard will open the floodgates to custom built EUC's.

https://www.kellycontrollers.eu/villany-motorok/agymotor-hub-motor

https://www.kellycontrollers.eu/motor-vezerlok/kefe-nelkuli-bldc-brushless-vezerlo

https://toshiba.semicon-storage.com/ap-en/semiconductor/product/motor-driver-ics/brushless-dc-motor-driver-ics.html

https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/applications/solutions/motor-control-and-drives/brushless-dc-motor/

http://www.spdcmotor.com/product-category/dc-hub-motor/brushless-hub-motor/

These things are incomprehensible to me, but for someone interested here are some links, there are many based on Arduino too

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/329935151_Self-Balancing_Autonomous_Unicycle_using_Raspberry_Pi

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/this-raspberry-pi-balance-bot-wont-fall-down

https://raspibotics.wixsite.com/pibotics-blog/post/01-build-a-self-balancing-robot-with-legs-boston-dynamics-handle-inspired

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/261126156_Design_and_control_of_a_two-wheel_self-balancing_robot_using_the_arduino_microcontroller_board 

 

Edited July 18, 2020 by Mr A.A
added url

[Mark Wilson]

34 minutes ago, Mr A.A said:

As far as I know, the main hurdle is the motherboard

What about using a VESC controller?

[Mr A.A]

2 minutes ago, Mark Wilson said:

What about using a VESC controller?

I have no idea what that is, but willing to learn new things,

This has gone off topic from the main discussion and we are hijacking Marty's thread.

hope some moderator can merge relevant posts into a new discussion or into the old one

 

[Mark Wilson]

Sorry for going off topic, last non-Sherman post from me. 

This guy modded a monster with a VESC (a VESC in an open source controller often used in custom electric skateboards). I think he wrote the self balancing code too. He has other videos on how to setup the VESC for an EUC on his channel.

 

[Marty Backe]

2 minutes ago, Mark Wilson said:

Sorry for going off topic, last non-Sherman post from me. 

This guy modded a monster with a VESC (a VESC in an open source controller often used in custom electric skateboards). I think he wrote the self balancing code too. He has other videos on how to setup the VESC for an EUC on his channel.

 

I know Mitch and he's doing great things. Clearly the knowledge to build EUCs is not restricted to the Chinese. But their low costs are. If EUCs ever turn a bit more mainstream the market might support a Western company.

People are cheap (including me). Since EUCs are mostly safe and reliable (I've never had a cutout from just riding like a normal person) I'd be hard pressed to spend $5k on a Western built EUC vs $2k for a Chinese brand. I pulled those numbers out of the air but I'd have to believe a Western designed and built EUC would be much more expensive.

[Mark Wilson]

2 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I know Mitch and he's doing great things. Clearly the knowledge to build EUCs is not restricted to the Chinese. But their low costs are. If EUCs ever turn a bit more mainstream the market might support a Western company.

People are cheap (including me). Since EUCs are mostly safe and reliable (I've never had a cutout from just riding like a normal person) I'd be hard pressed to spend $5k on a Western built EUC vs $2k for a Chinese brand. I pulled those numbers out of the air but I'd have to believe a Western designed and built EUC would be much more expensive.

I am in the same boat when it comes to buying a final product. I want whatever is the cheapest. But if DIYing your own wheel becomes more popular and their are tutorials and people on the forums that would help (similar to https://electric-skateboard.builders/) I might be interested in building my own. That way you could make exactly the wheel you want (at a similar or even cheaper price than Chinese wheels).

[meepmeepmayer]

3 hours ago, Patton250 said:

At the very least a handful of you guys could design one on paper and sell the rights to one of the companies.

I don't think you can sell the rights to "Use thicker cables you dumbasses" or "Put the battery packs and board in separate nice waterproof boxes" or "Just choose the component from the list that has a higher continuous spec than your peak continuous power" or "Look up ergonomics in a dictionary" or "Some people weigh more than 50kg, stop designing for that!" or stuff like that

Anyways, progress is happening, and hopefully the Sherman frying means a move to "bigger" components in the future.

[Patton250]

35 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I don't think you can sell the rights to "Use thicker cables you dumbasses" or "Put the battery packs and board in separate nice waterproof boxes" or "Just choose the component from the list that has a higher continuous spec than your peak continuous power" or "Look up ergonomics in a dictionary" or "Some people weigh more than 50kg, stop designing for that!" or stuff like that

Anyways, progress is happening, and hopefully the Sherman frying means a move to "bigger" components in the future.

No I’m sorry that’s not what I meant at all. It seems we have a handful of experts on this forum that at least seem to me in their comments no one hell of a lot more about these machines then the handful of companies in China making them. Every new wheel that comes out these guys site engineering statistics explaining why these Chinese companies are morons. All I’m saying is if you really know that much more than the people making them then make a better one. I’d be for it. 

[meepmeepmayer]

38 minutes ago, Patton250 said:

It seems we have a handful of experts on this forum that at least seem to me in their comments no one hell of a lot more about these machines then the handful of companies in China making them.

I don't believe people here know more than the people making EUCs for 5+ years. People here can simply point out basic electronic design flaws like wiring getting hot (which it never should in the first place).

I think it's just an attitude difference - design from scratch for the demands you know are there (plus some headroom) vs. upgrading the basic Solowheel clone hardware as minimal as possible for each step, and saying everything is ok as long as the wheel works (with no knowledge of guarantees) in their unsystematic testing (includes the first batch customers), and just slightly upgrading only the failed component otherwise or just doing some kind of lame workaround.

Don't get me wrong, give me enough money/investors and I'll build my own EUCs with blackjack and hookers and whatever else the current manufacturers won't do. But it's not like they couldn't easily do it themselves.

-

Maybe it would be fruitful to simply list the "obvious" (to us here) things that we would like the manufacturers do to. Like

• Minimum of 1.5cm clearance between the tire and the shell at the narrowest point, as well as a minimum of 1cm clearance to the sides of the tire.

Stuff like that. Just a list of minimum standards?

[.....]

40 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I don't believe people here know more than the people making EUCs for 5+ years. People here can simply point out basic electronic design flaws like wiring getting hot (which it never should in the first place).

I think it's just an attitude difference - design from scratch for the demands you know are there (plus some headroom) vs. upgrading the basic Solowheel clone hardware as minimal as possible for each step, and saying everything is ok as long as the wheel works (with no knowledge of guarantees) in their unsystematic testing (includes the first batch customers), and just slightly upgrading only the failed component otherwise or just doing some kind of lame workaround.

Don't get me wrong, give me enough money/investors and I'll build my own EUCs with blackjack and hookers and whatever else the current manufacturers won't do. But it's not like they couldn't easily do it themselves.

-

Maybe it would be fruitful to simply list the "obvious" (to us here) things that we would like the manufacturers do to. Like

• Minimum of 1.5cm clearance between the tire and the shell at the narrowest point, as well as a minimum of 1cm clearance to the sides of the tire.

Stuff like that. Just a list of minimum standards?

I agree with you for the most part, but lets not make the mistake of assuming that someone knows wtf they are doing; JUST because they've been doing it for a 10yrs or less. Surely you've seen many an older person that quit learning about the age of 15? I have worked along side many technicians that have decades of hours on the job, yet still don't know how to PROPERLY do things. Hell, I've worked alongside people that were in the in the industry for many years and still don't understand the thoery behind torque specs and bolt stretch. Hell, I've been speaking English for nearly 42 years and still don't get it right. We shouldnt have to point out the obvious, especially if it aint their first revision or rodeo.

[Jon Stern]

We shouldn't be focusing of what's wrong with the current EUC manufacturer designs! We should be focused on what's wrong with the process that creates EUCs with these defects.

What's missing from the current manufacturers isn't knowledge or intelligence (these are smart people), what's missing is rigorous, controlled failure testing (HALT testing, testing to failure), and manufacturing process and quality control.

To put it simply, they release products that have not been adequately tested, and refined in response to those tests results. They rush their products to market, and make reckless changes during the development process that can lead to unknown outcomes.

There's also a lack of design and component reuse (and attention to  past lessons learned), so they'll re-design too many components based on the whims of the assigned engineer, with unknown reliability and user experience impact. This is what you get by default with engineers. It's down to the management team to put in place processes and teach design and validation methodologies that curtail this natural behavior.

[.....]

1 minute ago, Jon Stern said:

We shouldn't be focusing of what's wrong with the current EUC manufacturer designs! We should be focused on what's wrong with the process that creates EUCs with these defects.

What's missing from the current manufacturers isn't knowledge or intelligence (these are smart people), what's missing is rigorous, controlled failure testing (HALT testing, testing to failure), and manufacturing process and quality control.

To put it simply, they release products that have not been adequately tested, and refined in response to those tests results. They rush their products to market, and make reckless changes during the development process that can lead to unknown outcomes.

There's also a lack of design and component reuse (and attention to  past lessons learned), so they'll re-design too many components based on the whims of the assigned engineer, with unknown reliability and user experience impact. This is what you get by default with engineers. It's down to the management team to put in place processes and teach design and validation methodologies that curtail this natural behavior.

Hit the nail on the head. Good luck getting them to change strategies. I suspect its a cultural thing and very common. R&D costs lots of money. Testing cost time and money. For now, it seems that us consumers are getting to share in that expense.

[Patton250]

1 hour ago, Jon Stern said:

We shouldn't be focusing of what's wrong with the current EUC manufacturer designs! We should be focused on what's wrong with the process that creates EUCs with these defects.

What's missing from the current manufacturers isn't knowledge or intelligence (these are smart people), what's missing is rigorous, controlled failure testing (HALT testing, testing to failure), and manufacturing process and quality control.

To put it simply, they release products that have not been adequately tested, and refined in response to those tests results. They rush their products to market, and make reckless changes during the development process that can lead to unknown outcomes.

There's also a lack of design and component reuse (and attention to  past lessons learned), so they'll re-design too many components based on the whims of the assigned engineer, with unknown reliability and user experience impact. This is what you get by default with engineers. It's down to the management team to put in place processes and teach design and validation methodologies that curtail this natural behavior.

Indeed? Just out of curiosity how do you know the exact details of their processes? Are processes different in each different company? Do you know the processes for all the different companies? Thanks.

[Jon Stern]

1 hour ago, Patton250 said:

Indeed? Just out of curiosity how do you know the exact details of their processes? Are processes different in each different company? Do you know the processes for all the different companies? Thanks.

I don't know the details of their process, but based on what we can observe (late changes, high field failures, etc.) they don't follow a rigorous process, and certainly don't use Design for Six Sigma techniques.

At my company, we follow the EVT, DVT, PVT build phase product development life cycle, with gates (detailed reviews) between each phase. This approach is derived from the automotive industry. I can emphatically tell you that these EUC companies do not use this kind of process.

I also have a lot of experience working with Chinese manufacturers (and have spent a lot of time in China). I know what the defaults are. You have to drag them kicking and screaming to come up with a disciplined process. 

Edited July 18, 2020 by Jon Stern

[travsformation]

@Patton250 The issue isn't about know-how or intelligence. The puzzle pieces you're leaving out are PROFITS and CULTURE. 

• Profits are reduced if thicker cables and beefier components are used, if (what we consider) the appropriate resources are devoted to R&D, testing, QC, etc. The approach to design, production and sales (as well as consumer satisfaction...), as meep explained and is obvious to anyone who's followed the chaotic release of any new wheel, are simply...different. What in the West we'd call non-rigurous, half-assed and maybe even negligent, not to mention not particularly "honorable" with regard to their customers. But that's only a problem for those of us in the West, in China that's completely normal, it's just the way things are done. Which brings us to...
   
• Culture. The reason we're even having this discussion (or all the discussions that ensue the release of new wheels, posts on wheel failures, etc.) is that the Chinese production model, quality standards and safety/reliability guarantees clash head on with what we've been brought up on in the West. Just think "customer loyalty", a concept that revolves around producing high-quality, reliable products that will inspire trust and confidence in consumers and make them more likely to buy from the same brand again in the future. That just isn't the case with EUCs (or anything coming from China, really). I think the only brand that lives up to that standard is Inmotion.

What I mean to say with this is that these clashes are inevitable when Western consumers are buying $2-3K products from companies that don't even remotely adhere to what here we consider to be "good business practices". I see the critical analyses and pointing out of faults as a good thing that, over time, might gradually help bring up the quality standards to something more in line with what Western customers expect when paying the kind of money we do. 

But I understand and respect that you might feel differently. We don't have to agree on everything (or anything).

I would point out though that critical discussions like the one that spawned this thread are an inherent part of the forum. While you're free to stand behind the Chinese interpretation of capitalism (friendly banter ), I wouldn't get too worked up over comments that are critical of EUC MFs' business products or business models or you're going to have an awful lot to get worked up about... 

[Patton250]

1 hour ago, Jon Stern said:

I don't know the details of their process, but based on what we can observe (late changes, high field failures, etc.) they don't follow a rigorous process, and certainly don't use Design for Six Sigma techniques.

At my company, we follow the EVT, DVT, PVT build phase product development life cycle, with gates (detailed reviews) between each phase. This approach is derived from the automotive industry. I can emphatically tell you that these EUC companies do not use this kind of process.

I also have a lot of experience working with Chinese manufacturers (and have spent a lot of time in China). I know what the defaults are. You have to drag them kicking and screaming to come up with a disciplined process. 

High field failures? I wasn’t aware of that. I was aware of one of our favorite guys here taking a new wheel to the extreme extreme and it failed. I don’t think we have a lot of cut outs among members here do we? I haven’t seen any. Not that it hasn’t happened from time to time but it’s certainly not a high amount that I’m aware of. Also I don’t think this company that basically produces toys (sorry Marty please don’t be mad) is going to put these things through the same testing car manufactures do. That’s expecting a little bit too much don’t you think? If they did I would think one of these things would cost $5000+. That’s why I have suggested a group of people here getting together and bringing this type of vehicle to a whole new level. Although to put it through its paces like you’re talking about it absolutely would cost a heck of a lot more than 2K. Especially if it was made in North America or Europe. So there’s that. 

[Patton250]

48 minutes ago, travsformation said:

@Patton250 The issue isn't about know-how or intelligence. The puzzle pieces you're leaving out are PROFITS and CULTURE. 

• Profits are reduced if thicker cables and beefier components are used, if (what we consider) the appropriate resources are devoted to R&D, testing, QC, etc. The approach to design, production and sales (as well as consumer satisfaction...), as meep explained and is obvious to anyone who's followed the chaotic release of any new wheel, are simply...different. What in the West we'd call non-rigurous, half-assed and maybe even negligent, not to mention not particularly "honorable" with regard to their customers. But that's only a problem for those of us in the West, in China that's completely normal, it's just the way things are done. Which brings us to...
   
• Culture. The reason we're even having this discussion (or all the discussions that ensue the release of new wheels, posts on wheel failures, etc.) is that the Chinese production model, quality standards and safety/reliability guarantees clash head on with what we've been brought up on in the West. Just think "customer loyalty", a concept that revolves around producing high-quality, reliable products that will inspire trust and confidence in consumers and make them more likely to buy from the same brand again in the future. That just isn't the case with EUCs (or anything coming from China, really). I think the only brand that lives up to that standard is Inmotion.

What I mean to say with this is that these clashes are inevitable when Western consumers are buying $2-3K products from companies that don't even remotely adhere to what here we consider to be "good business practices". I see the critical analyses and pointing out of faults as a good thing that, over time, might gradually help bring up the quality standards to something more in line with what Western customers expect when paying the kind of money we do. 

But I understand and respect that you might feel differently. We don't have to agree on everything (or anything).

I would point out though that critical discussions like the one that spawned this thread are an inherent part of the forum. While you're free to stand behind the Chinese interpretation of capitalism (friendly banter ), I wouldn't get too worked up over comments that are critical of EUC MFs' business products or business models or you're going to have an awful lot to get worked up about... 

I don’t feel differently. I agree with everything you just said. I’m not sure if you were aware of it but you just proved my point. You are so sure the west can do it better and are superior at manufacturing and I agree with you. That’s why I keep saying why don’t you guys do it. The Chinese have always made cheap stuff. That’s what they do. It drives me crazy sometimes because once in a while I just want a particular product to be of higher quality and I am more than willing to pay the price for it. Amazon is filled with Chinese junk. But I guarantee to these wheel manufacturers they are just making a more advanced toy. These things are just meant to zoom around and have fun with exactly like a skateboard or Bicycle. Now there are manufacturers that make extremely high-quality skateboards and bicycles and there are manufacturers that make extremely cheap skateboards and bicycles. You guys obviously feel like these wheels are on the cheaper end. I really don’t know enough about it to comment. So if you feel this way I say do something about it especially since a handful of you seem to really know what you’re talking about as far as how these motors work and how all the electrical components are put together. I read some of these technical comments and I have no idea what you are talking about other than some of these guys seem to really know what they’re doing. I don’t see that kind of talk on other forums and Hobbies I’m a member of like watches, guns and Radar Detectors and laser jammers. Don’t get me wrong those forms have their experts but none of them claim like guys do here to know more than the manufactures about the products we are discussing. I think it’s pretty cool that some of our guys here know this much and I think it would be awesome if they took that knowledge and built the ultimate wheel. I think it’s worth discussing further. I would throw some money towards it. 

[Jon Stern]

1 hour ago, Patton250 said:

High field failures? I wasn’t aware of that. I was aware of one of our favorite guys here taking a new wheel to the extreme extreme and it failed. I don’t think we have a lot of cut outs among members here do we? I haven’t seen any. Not that it hasn’t happened from time to time but it’s certainly not a high amount that I’m aware of. Also I don’t think this company that basically produces toys (sorry Marty please don’t be mad) is going to put these things through the same testing car manufactures do. That’s expecting a little bit too much don’t you think? If they did I would think one of these things would cost $5000+. That’s why I have suggested a group of people here getting together and bringing this type of vehicle to a whole new level. Although to put it through its paces like you’re talking about it absolutely would cost a heck of a lot more than 2K. Especially if it was made in North America or Europe. So there’s that. 

Failures probably wasn't the best word to use. High rate of field issues. I'm not just referring to catastrophic controller failures. There's a long list of less dramatic issues, like trolley handle screws coming loose, random pedal tilts, tires rubbing (due to last minute tire swaps), poor dust seals, poor water resistance, mudflaps falling off, petal hold up magnets dropping off, incorrect battery level reporting, side pads that quickly peel off or get worn, LED failures, inaccessible tire valve stems, housing cracks, self-tapping screws failing after a few cycles, speed wobbles, breaking wobbles, motor high-pitch whines, rear reflector strips peeling off, wire insulation melting, etc., etc., bloody etc.

I'm not calling for automotive level testing (that would add too much cost). I develop consumer products that have no real safety critical failure modes, and we use the kind of approaches I discussed above.

[Mr A.A]

Agree with everything here,

So, what can we do to make it different ? crowd fund an open EUC motherboard ? find manufacturers who can supply quality components ?

Imagine a scenario where you can choose your motor, tires, battery, then build a custom chassis based on your weight and needs. Those who are less inclined towards DIY, makes good business opportunity for current sellers.

We have a lot of testers who'll happily test the prototypes, or we'll force them to   

[Patton250]

49 minutes ago, Mr A.A said:

Agree with everything here,

So, what can we do to make it different ? crowd fund an open EUC motherboard ? find manufacturers who can supply quality components ?

Imagine a scenario where you can choose your motor, tires, battery, then build a custom chassis based on your weight and needs. Those who are less inclined towards DIY, makes good business opportunity for current sellers.

We have a lot of testers who'll happily test the prototypes, or we'll force them to   

That’s an awesome idea. Order to build from high end parts. Genius. Like custom choppers. 

[mrelwood]

Chinese manufacturers have long been able to make good quality products if they so wish. I believe the issue is mainly cultural. Since the EUCs they make already sell reasonably well, questionable designs and manufacturing and cheaping out on components seem sufficient.

 Since the manufacturing facilities, parts vendors, distribution channels and all are already in place, I would think that the Apple approach would be a good one for EUCs as well: Products designed in the west but manufactured in China with a close western supervision. But I guess it would require a western company and large funds to make it happen.

[Jon Stern]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Chinese manufacturers have long been able to make good quality products if they so wish. I believe the issue is mainly cultural. Since the EUCs they make already sell reasonably well, questionable designs and manufacturing and cheaping out on components seem sufficient.

 Since the manufacturing facilities, parts vendors, distribution channels and all are already in place, I would think that the Apple approach would be a good one for EUCs as well: Products designed in the west but manufactured in China with a close western supervision. But I guess it would require a western company and large funds to make it happen.

Yes, Chinese manufacturers can make good products. I know from first hand experience though, that it needs a lot of work to get them to adopt the right kind of practices, and to abandon laissez faire engineering attitudes.

When we say that it's cultural, it's nothing to do with national culture, and everything to do with business and manufacturing culture. Even in the West and Japan, the development of quality control methods is very recent from an historical perspective.

Statistical process control methods, for example, were developed in the US by Shewhart in the 1920. Made in Japan used to mean cheap crappy knock-offs, until the 1950s when they started to adopt the systems advocated by Deming, and others. ISO 9000 quality management was only introduced in 1987, based on British Standard BS 5750 that itself was introduced in 1979.

I believe things will change in China when it stops being so easy to make money pushing out any old crap. As business gets more competitive (and the growing Chinese middle class becomes more selective), getting rich at the bottom end won't be a sure thing any more. Some business will decide there are richer opportunities by moving upwards. There are already pockets of this, but often that is more down to a particular passion of their founders, rather than it being a business necessity.

It's not like things are perfect in the US either. I regularly find myself fighting with engineers who simply don't understand how to manage risk, and don't understand why the cool idea that popped in to their head 5 minutes earlier shouldn't be jumped on, and the old (proven) approach abandoned. They don't seem to teach design for six sigma, or similar techniques (or philosophies) in schools.

Actually, one good example of bad practices here in the US is the infamous Red Ring of Death on the Xbox 360. The lack of rigorous product reliability testing procedures at Microsoft ended up costing them $1 BILLION! They learned from that costly incident though, and since then have taught and enforced design for six sigma practices.

Another slightly earlier example is the Challenger accident. In this case, the launch was under cold conditions that the vehicle (in particular SRB o-rings) had not been tested to. One of the engineers warned against going ahead with the launch, but the general consensus was "we can't think of anything that could go wrong if we do".

Edited July 19, 2020 by Jon Stern

[travsformation]

10 hours ago, Patton250 said:

I don’t feel differently. I agree with everything you just said. I’m not sure if you were aware of it but you just proved my point. You are so sure the west can do it better and are superior at manufacturing and I agree with you. That’s why I keep saying why don’t you guys do it. The Chinese have always made cheap stuff. That’s what they do. It drives me crazy sometimes because once in a while I just want a particular product to be of higher quality and I am more than willing to pay the price for it. Amazon is filled with Chinese junk. But I guarantee to these wheel manufacturers they are just making a more advanced toy. These things are just meant to zoom around and have fun with exactly like a skateboard or Bicycle. Now there are manufacturers that make extremely high-quality skateboards and bicycles and there are manufacturers that make extremely cheap skateboards and bicycles. You guys obviously feel like these wheels are on the cheaper end. I really don’t know enough about it to comment. So if you feel this way I say do something about it especially since a handful of you seem to really know what you’re talking about as far as how these motors work and how all the electrical components are put together. I read some of these technical comments and I have no idea what you are talking about other than some of these guys seem to really know what they’re doing. I don’t see that kind of talk on other forums and Hobbies I’m a member of like watches, guns and Radar Detectors and laser jammers. Don’t get me wrong those forms have their experts but none of them claim like guys do here to know more than the manufactures about the products we are discussing. I think it’s pretty cool that some of our guys here know this much and I think it would be awesome if they took that knowledge and built the ultimate wheel. I think it’s worth discussing further. I would throw some money towards it. 

I agree a Western-based EUC MF would be awesome, I'd definitely be willing to throw some money at it if someone were up to giving it a try. But as others have pointed out, the cost would probably be prohibitive.

Since that's unlikely, as consumers, all we can do is demand higher quality standards from current MFs, I don't see what's wrong with that...

Then again, I get the impression this thread is less about a genuine desire to see a Western MF and more about a dislike of people with electronics and engineering backgrounds pointing out design flaws. I don't want to start the age-old US vs. Europe debate, but since you mentioned Europe in your first post, I think it's worth noting that there might cultural differences there worth taking into account too. Consumers are brought up to be very selective from a young age (go to this baker, not that one, their bread is better/fresher/whatnot), and perhaps that leads to greater consumer expectations, a greater sense of "corporate accountability" and even a sense of entitlement that, I can understand, can be perceived as pedantic and know-it-all.

But context is all. When, post WW2, the US was amidst one of the periods of greatest economic growth and prosperity in its history, Europe was desolate, struggling to rebuild and poverty-ridden. Attitudes born from decades of hardship become ingrained in people's attitude and carry over to the next generations, so in periods of prosperity, when people can afford to buy nice things and quality consumer goods, they expect them to be top-notch and reliable, not the cheap disposable junk they had to settle for in tougher years or have taught their offspring to stay clear of. They want what they pay for, and if they pay 3K for an EUC, they expect it not to burn under stress; and if they're knowledgeable in the field and are educated enough to detect the flaws behind such mishaps, they'll be quick to point them out. 

Just for context, Europeans are equally critical with domestic brands, MFs, even small commerces, whether it's restaurants, hotels, butchers, etc. It's ingrained in the culture. 

Those differences are what makes this global forum what it is. They often create clashes, but a lot can be learned from them. We learn from each other, keep each other in check...it strikes a nice balance if handled properly. I, for instance, have always been very pro-regulation in terms of governments keeping corporations in check. In some cases I still am, but in others, this forum has broadened my perspective and I can see how over-regulation can cripple emerging technologies, including PLEVs. Same goes for a lot of other things where I'm starting to prefer the American approach.

If we all thought the same, what fun would this forum be? 

And when disagreements don't yield anything productive, what can you do about it? Live and let live 

Note: the above is a gross generalization and I'm no historian or sociologist, these are just observations of mine as an American who's grown up in Europe with a mixture of two clashing mindsets---the one I was taught at home and the one I encountered every time I stepped out the door, which has gradually also become my own. I enjoy the multi-perspective approach because it gives things a lot of nuance, but maybe to others it sounds like I'm just full of sh*t. And it may very well be the case. C'est la vie...