Michael Anderson Posted April 23, 2020 Author Share Posted April 23, 2020 7 minutes ago, WI_Hedgehog said: Hi Michael, Assuredly, I'm not the guy trying to scam you, whomever that may be. It is unfortunate people do that. The battery, even if well-used, should charge to 4.2 volts and hold it. It may not put out the Watt*hours it used to, though it should charge up. I don't know what the EUC's true situation is, and am only trying to be helpful. There's the LiPo charger, BMS, and battery, plus the voltage meter, leads, and contact points being used (are they dirty?). Hopefully the new owner figures out where the situation is stemming from, as there's a lot of possibilities besides the battery. Oh and when I do charge the battery it does hold a charge sometimes I didn't ride for a week and the charge I left on there be the same as I left it and always has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Anderson Posted April 23, 2020 Author Share Posted April 23, 2020 29 minutes ago, mezzanine said: I'd ask the mods and anyone reading to take a sincere and honest look at the evidence in this situation and come to your conclusion about what happened here. What happened isn't ambiguous at all if you simply connect the dots. I've literally been physically ill all day today because of this. After all of this mess that wheel was too good for this I wish I'd of kept my wheel! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Anderson Posted April 24, 2020 Author Share Posted April 24, 2020 (edited) On 4/23/2020 at 6:25 PM, Michael Anderson said: After all of this mess that wheel was too good for this I wish I'd of kept my wheel! Never mind still fighting this case against me Edited April 25, 2020 by Michael Anderson Wrong information Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertrand One Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 What happened, Michael? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 6 hours ago, Michael Anderson said: Well turns out I guess he won the case they took all the money out of my PayPal acct. And he don't have to return my wheel. So if you buy from someone on here just lie and complain and dispute it and you can get anything on here for free Just a shot notice. Allegation can be toss both ways. But if the wheel is faulty it is very easy to see as it should charge to full. If it don't then something is wrong. So if you don't want to get into a dispute then you get this checked and double checked as a seller. If you are selling a broken product, and you state there is an issue then people can decide if they would buy it for spare part or do the repair themselves, if the price is right. PayPal handles enough transactions to see a trend in an transaction. So when you as seller choose to use PayPal they deliver a trust to the buyer. As seller you should know that PayPal have the buyers interest and that is why it is trust building payment. Now keep in mind this forum is not ment as a sellers platform. So comming here only to sell items isn't building trust up either. Being a long part active and contributing member would properly change that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 8 hours ago, mezzanine said: I'd ask the mods and anyone reading to take a sincere and honest look at the evidence in this situation and come to your conclusion about what happened here. ... Sorry - we are no judges and we have no evidence. And a public forum is not the place to spread evidence (e.g. private communication!) So anyone can of course form his own opinion, but coming to a profound conclusion seems to be out of scope. Maybe one conclusion can be found - if one spends money or sells valuables one should set up at least some kind of purchase contract and think about what one is doing. And get familiar with the payment options one chooses and what consequences can arise from them! Like: 7 hours ago, Michael Anderson said: Well turns out I guess he won the case they took all the money out of my PayPal acct. And he don't have to return my wheel. So if you buy from someone on here just lie and complain and dispute it and you can get anything on here for free I'm not too familiar with paypal - but they have their rules and procedures one agrees to by using paypal... They are some kind of "first step judges" - they'll decide (hopefully) according to their rules and documentation they get. As they afaik arose from an online sales platform and work with many transactions they should have setup something that works out? Next step are just "real" lawsuits. It's always bad if a deal does not work out for both places. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 29 minutes ago, Unventor said: Just a shot notice. Allegation can be toss both ways. But if the wheel is faulty it is very easy to see as it should charge to full. If it don't then something is wrong. So if you don't want to get into a dispute then you get this checked and double checked as a seller. If you are selling a broken product, and you state there is an issue then people can decide if they would buy it for spare part or do the repair themselves, if the price is right. PayPal handles enough transactions to see a trend in an transaction. So when you as seller choose to use PayPal they deliver a trust to the buyer. As seller you should know that PayPal have the buyers interest and that is why it is trust building payment. Now keep in mind this forum is not ment as a sellers platform. So comming here only to sell items isn't building trust up either. Being a long part active and contributing member would properly change that. If you or any other mod would like a full transcript of our communication, please let me know. It's very frustrating to observe the reaction from those who have no idea what happened, but claim it's an open question where the fault lies with zero effort made to actually investigate the transaction. Mods, why not contact the other posters who inquired about the wheel? I'd bet a lot of money they will tell you they clued into the battery problem. I'd note that I begged Mike not to ship the wheel early this morning BEFORE HE SHIPPED IT ANYWAY. I also volunteered to pay what I thought was the full shipping amount if he'd simply accept the wheel back! Think about it: I offered to pay the guy who deliberately scammed me $150 US in an effort to take the high road. Nope. Apparently he managed to find a shipping company that charged $300 US to ship it and feels I should be responsible for that full cost, despite my repeated requests he use USPS freight. Never. Again. Mods, I'd also be more than happy to provide you with my Ebay account with perfect feedback going back almost 20 years now as well as my Amazon account in perfect standing. Not to mention I've bought two wheels through the forum before and had seamless and pleasant transactions on both occasions. Also have 900 posts and have been an active member of the community. What's frustrating is that it doesn't seem like anyone wants to do even the most basic due diligence into what happened here, and instead treat Mike as though he may be the real victim here. While I'm impressed with his ability to gaslight, it's totally unacceptable. This isn't even a hard situation to deconstruct with even a basic amount of effort or research. Never. Again. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 (edited) 50 minutes ago, mezzanine said: If you or any other mod would like a full transcript of our communication, please let me know. It's very frustrating to observe the reaction from those who have no idea what happened, but claim it's an open question where the fault lies with zero effort made to actually investigate the transaction. Mods, why not contact the other posters who inquired about the wheel? I'd bet a lot of money they will tell you they clued into the battery problem. I am not going to get involved in this due to the text stating the rules for private sales thread. Moderators will step in on the forum in general but wel will not be part of a buyer/seller depute. Edited April 24, 2020 by Unventor 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Planemo Posted April 24, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted April 24, 2020 I'm not taking sides here, but just some points I would make as an 'outsider'. 1. I don't think it's fair for the buyer to chastise (I am being generous with that term) the rest of the forum members for not picking up on and making it public that there could be a battery problem. For one, it would only be a guess, not fact. Secondly, it could be seen as crapping on someones sales thread which for me is a very big no-no. Acceptable to do if it's a known scam, but you would have to be *very* sure about that. 2. We don't know that the seller had any idea that the battery could be faulty. He may not be technically minded in the slightest. Many riders aren't. He did however report, clearly, what it charged to. 3. Notwithstanding the above, if I was the seller and a concern was brought to my attention (by the buyer or anyone) prior to sending I would put the sale on hold until everyone was happy with what they were getting. For sure, I don't think I could sleep properly by just pushing ahead and getting shot of the item asap. If the seller did indeed do this, that's out of order IMO but I guess you could argue that the sale was made, payment transferred and it was a done deal. It's not how I would do business but it's how it works in many peoples minds in this world. 4. If a relatively serious problem (not an undescribed scratch or something) was identified post-sending and it couldn't be covered by what I had described in the sales listing then I would feel compelled to try and reach an amicable settlement with the buyer. However, in this case, a faulty battery could quite easily be covered by what the seller stated so I don't think theres anywhere to go. Yes, it might be a goodwill gesture for the seller to try and do something but the onus wouldn't lie with them. 5. The buyer appears angry that 'others' aren't doing due diligence in sorting this out. I don't feel this is fair. It's not up to anyone else to sort this, or even look into it. This isn't Ebay. 6. I don't see anyone treating the seller as a victim as the buyer claims. 7. If the sellers claim of him having lost all the money due to a chargeback is correct, that is totally unacceptable IMO. If I was the seller I would be fuming. Lets not forget that there is no proof of the seller having tried to scam anyone. If he hadn't mentioned the charge voltage then yes, but otherwise, no. To summarise, it's an upsetting scenario all round. It's a shame that a financial agreement couldn't be made before a full chargeback was issued. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, Michael Anderson said: Well the guy issued a dispute with PayPal say he got the item not described as advertised and he received it damaged but I just mailed it to Canada today so... He asked you not to send it, and you did anyways. To be honest, that doesn't speak for you. Anyways, looks like the sale didn't go through, and you'll get your wheel back. Please indicate that the voltage indicates a bad battery pack if you try to sell the wheel again. Nothing wrong with that if you are open about everything. Please edit your first post accordingly. Edited April 24, 2020 by meepmeepmayer 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WI_Hedgehog Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 5 hours ago, mezzanine said: What's frustrating is that it doesn't seem like anyone wants to do even the most basic due diligence into what happened here, and instead treat Mike as though he may be the real victim here. While I'm impressed with his ability to gaslight, it's totally unacceptable. This isn't even a hard situation to deconstruct with even a basic amount of effort or research. That's a blanket statement that is uncalled for. I saw the sale thread when it was posted, looked at the wheel and seller's profile, and decided to pass for several reasons. I did not feel the need to post why I was interested in the wheel nor why I decided to pass, and didn't see you do that either. I don't know why the charge voltage is what it is--it could be the seller set that voltage on the charger, or was sold the wrong type of charger--I don't know. It's not my job to play long-distance detective either, at least not when I'm not buying the wheel. On the flip side of that, I did try to help you (and the seller) figure out where the problem lies by providing as much starting information with references as I could reasonably find. I don't want to get in the middle of your dispute--it's not my business and I don't know all the details, and even if I did know all the details--it's not my business. I genuinely would like to see both of you come to a mutually beneficial resolution (although beyond offering support, it's not my business, and I don't want to make it my business). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Anderson Posted April 25, 2020 Author Share Posted April 25, 2020 17 hours ago, mezzanine said: If you or any other mod would like a full transcript of our communication, please let me know. It's very frustrating to observe the reaction from those who have no idea what happened, but claim it's an open question where the fault lies with zero effort made to actually investigate the transaction. Mods, why not contact the other posters who inquired about the wheel? I'd bet a lot of money they will tell you they clued into the battery problem. I'd note that I begged Mike not to ship the wheel early this morning BEFORE HE SHIPPED IT ANYWAY. I also volunteered to pay what I thought was the full shipping amount if he'd simply accept the wheel back! Think about it: I offered to pay the guy who deliberately scammed me $150 US in an effort to take the high road. Nope. Apparently he managed to find a shipping company that charged $300 US to ship it and feels I should be responsible for that full cost, despite my repeated requests he use USPS freight. Never. Again. Mods, I'd also be more than happy to provide you with my Ebay account with perfect feedback going back almost 20 years now as well as my Amazon account in perfect standing. Not to mention I've bought two wheels through the forum before and had seamless and pleasant transactions on both occasions. Also have 900 posts and have been an active member of the community. What's frustrating is that it doesn't seem like anyone wants to do even the most basic due diligence into what happened here, and instead treat Mike as though he may be the real victim here. While I'm impressed with his ability to gaslight, it's totally unacceptable. This isn't even a hard situation to deconstruct with even a basic amount of effort or research. Never. Again. What you fail to realize is that I emailed you every step of the way and told you I will mail it in the morning, I have a job and a life so I didn't get your email till I got back home after that is was already in the mail I have no reason to scam you by sell you a working machine the I sold for $750 and have to pay about $300 dollar to ship from Alabama to Canada look it up there is no cheaper options next you filed a claim before even getting the item and want a full refund, you would need to ship it back to me as the way I shipped it to you for me the be able to give you refund fair is fair and you are being unreasonable! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Anderson Posted April 25, 2020 Author Share Posted April 25, 2020 1 minute ago, Michael Anderson said: What you fail to realize is that I emailed you every step of the way and told you I will mail it in the morning, I have a job and a life so I didn't get your email till I got back home after that is was already in the mail I have no reason to scam you by sell you a working machine the I sold for $750 and have to pay about $300 dollar to ship from Alabama to Canada look it up there is no cheaper options next you filed a claim before even getting the item and want a full refund, you would need to ship it back to me as the way I shipped it to you for me the be able to give you refund fair is fair and you are being unreasonable! You just want to get the wheel for free and it shows Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Anderson Posted April 25, 2020 Author Share Posted April 25, 2020 15 hours ago, Planemo said: I'm not taking sides here, but just some points I would make as an 'outsider'. 1. I don't think it's fair for the buyer to chastise (I am being generous with that term) the rest of the forum members for not picking up on and making it public that there could be a battery problem. For one, it would only be a guess, not fact. Secondly, it could be seen as crapping on someones sales thread which for me is a very big no-no. Acceptable to do if it's a known scam, but you would have to be *very* sure about that. 2. We don't know that the seller had any idea that the battery could be faulty. He may not be technically minded in the slightest. Many riders aren't. He did however report, clearly, what it charged to. 3. Notwithstanding the above, if I was the seller and a concern was brought to my attention (by the buyer or anyone) prior to sending I would put the sale on hold until everyone was happy with what they were getting. For sure, I don't think I could sleep properly by just pushing ahead and getting shot of the item asap. If the seller did indeed do this, that's out of order IMO but I guess you could argue that the sale was made, payment transferred and it was a done deal. It's not how I would do business but it's how it works in many peoples minds in this world. 4. If a relatively serious problem (not an undescribed scratch or something) was identified post-sending and it couldn't be covered by what I had described in the sales listing then I would feel compelled to try and reach an amicable settlement with the buyer. However, in this case, a faulty battery could quite easily be covered by what the seller stated so I don't think theres anywhere to go. Yes, it might be a goodwill gesture for the seller to try and do something but the onus wouldn't lie with them. 5. The buyer appears angry that 'others' aren't doing due diligence in sorting this out. I don't feel this is fair. It's not up to anyone else to sort this, or even look into it. This isn't Ebay. 6. I don't see anyone treating the seller as a victim as the buyer claims. 7. If the sellers claim of him having lost all the money due to a chargeback is correct, that is totally unacceptable IMO. If I was the seller I would be fuming. Lets not forget that there is no proof of the seller having tried to scam anyone. If he hadn't mentioned the charge voltage then yes, but otherwise, no. To summarise, it's an upsetting scenario all round. It's a shame that a financial agreement couldn't be made before a full chargeback was issued. I agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Anderson Posted April 25, 2020 Author Share Posted April 25, 2020 14 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: He asked you not to send it, and you did anyways. To be honest, that doesn't speak for you. Anyways, looks like the sale didn't go through, and you'll get your wheel back. Please indicate that the voltage indicates a bad battery pack if you try to sell the wheel again. Nothing wrong with that if you are open about everything. Please edit your first post accordingly. The sale did go through I didn't get his email till I got home I work early and I mailed the wheel on the way home as I told him I was gonna do the night before and the buyer said thanks for the update, I would not have mailed it knowing first I don't just wake up and the first thing is to check for emails I saw the message when I was emailing the tracking number then I read his email. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 23 hours ago, mezzanine said: Mods, I'd also be more than happy to provide you with my Ebay account with perfect feedback going back almost 20 years now as well as my Amazon account in perfect standing. Not to mention I've bought two wheels through the forum before and had seamless and pleasant transactions on both occasions. Also have 900 posts and have been an active member of the community. Moderators will not get involved in this. It is not us that set up the deal or paid for the item. This is a matter only between seller and buyer. If you both read the thead rules you should both know this. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Anderson Posted April 25, 2020 Author Share Posted April 25, 2020 3 hours ago, Unventor said: Moderators will not get involved in this. It is not us that set up the deal or paid for the item. This is a matter only between seller and buyer. If you both read the thead rules you should both know this. I agree Just now, Michael Anderson said: I agree I didn't. Do this!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted April 27, 2020 Share Posted April 27, 2020 (edited) m Edited April 28, 2020 by mezzanine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Planemo Posted April 27, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted April 27, 2020 2 hours ago, mezzanine said: Also, a suggestion for anyone reading this whole debacle: if you have a broken wheel, just sell it here; the mods don't care My suggestion for anyone selling (or buying) a private wheel is to only transact face to face, with cash. I have lost at least 3 potential buyers for my Z10 due to 'my' non distance policy but this is the way I choose to do business. I would rather not make a sale than suffer ill feeling/monetary loss. If I go outside of the above, I am on my own. I know that, and it is my belief that most on this forum know that. Its not that mods dont care, its because they cant care, as once they do it suddenly becomes a whole new ball game to manage (read: insanely griefy) and to be fair they would simply remove the sales section which would be a massive shame for many. I dont, and never have done, expect mods to get involved if and when it all goes wrong with a wheel thats distance shipped. My caveat is that I *would* go outside of my distance selling policy if the deal was done with a very well recognised member, of which there are several on this forum who I would trust implicitly. Marty being one, as I dont think for one minute he has it in his bones to scam anyone. In short, whether to transact or not is a matter that only buyers and sellers can decide upon. No one is gonna hold your hand if your decision wasnt the right one. Being blunt, greed is the primary factor for people to take risks. Sellers want the money and buyers want the best deal. Take away the greed (as I do) and you can then choose exactly who and how you buy/sell to. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Chriull Posted April 27, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted April 27, 2020 4 hours ago, mezzanine said: Also, a suggestion for anyone reading this whole debacle: if you have a broken wheel, just sell it here; Sounds very frustrated... Understandingly. It's quite an amount of money. And quite a "valuable" exchanged for it. For clarification - noone sells a wheel here. Each one makes private sales between him and the sales partner in a freely by both of them choosen way. If face to face, via some online sales platform, with online payment platforms, credit cards, cash, with our without detailed item description, sales contract,... That's regulated by their national law (or interstate conventions for cross border transaction) and to some extend overruled by a sales contract. By the use of online paying platforms one chooses freeley to accept their restrictions/rulings. 5 hours ago, mezzanine said: the mods don't care So how to you excpect us to take care of this? Shall we take out our crystal ball and proclaim the truth? Shall we start some juristuctional education or employ lawyers to go through all the relevant laws, regulations, interview all parties and possible witnessed, sight documentation and decide which to regard and which could be faked? 5 hours ago, mezzanine said: The key is to gaslight gaslight gaslight. Or you could analyze what (exactly) went wrong and learn for future transactions. Help others to avoid such pitfalls. Bashing around in vain helps noone. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post travsformation Posted April 27, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted April 27, 2020 Moderators do not (and generally, should not) intervene or mediate in sales disputes. This is not a sales site, simply a section in the forum that allows users (who want to either sell or buy) to get in touch with each other. Moderators should not get involved in sales disputes, take sides, etc., as any backlash would be detrimental to mod objectivity and users' trust in us, and therefor, would be negative for the forum and the community at large. As much as we like to see everybody happy and would love to help out, giving out general advice on buying/selling "good practice" is pretty much the limit of mods' involvement. This thread started out as a question, and a few mods contributed their advice and knowledge (please remember that mods are also regular users who post, comment and discuss in this forum like anyone else), in a personal capacity, as regular users. Since then, the thread has evolved into a dispute where mods have been asked to intervene. That is not our role and I'm afraid that at this point it would be wise to distance ourselves from the discussion as this is a transaction concerning the seller and buyer only. As I said, we'd love to be able to help out in the benefit of all parties involved, but we need to place the benefit of the forum at large before that of the two users involved in this dispute. I hope you understand and are able to reach an amicable agreement. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WI_Hedgehog Posted April 27, 2020 Share Posted April 27, 2020 Due to the posts by the two involved parties...I'm out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 On 4/27/2020 at 9:18 AM, Chriull said: Sounds very frustrated... Understandingly. It's quite an amount of money. And quite a "valuable" exchanged for it. For clarification - noone sells a wheel here. Each one makes private sales between him and the sales partner in a freely by both of them choosen way. If face to face, via some online sales platform, with online payment platforms, credit cards, cash, with our without detailed item description, sales contract,... That's regulated by their national law (or interstate conventions for cross border transaction) and to some extend overruled by a sales contract. By the use of online paying platforms one chooses freeley to accept their restrictions/rulings. So how to you excpect us to take care of this? Shall we take out our crystal ball and proclaim the truth? Shall we start some juristuctional education or employ lawyers to go through all the relevant laws, regulations, interview all parties and possible witnessed, sight documentation and decide which to regard and which could be faked? Or you could analyze what (exactly) went wrong and learn for future transactions. Help others to avoid such pitfalls. Bashing around in vain helps noone. It's really very simple; there's zero incentive not to sell broken wheels here. Quite the opposite, in fact. I didn't realize it, and I fully admit it. I'm merely trying to alert other members who may read this that may not understand the incentive to sell broken wheels here. I've observed more than one member comment about receiving damaged wheels. One guy commented that he's bought two wheels from the forum and BOTH came to him damaged. I just hope that potential buyers read your response and can observe for themselves your perspective and attitude towards this potential problem, a problem that I believe is relatively unique for EUCs compared to most other products, given their complexity, newness, high $ value, potential danger as electric vehicles, etc.. You've been very clear in your position that there is no problem. There are lots of much larger websites that allow private sales that have instituted some safe-guards (minimum post counts, for example) to try to control this risk. Take a look at head-fi, the headphone hobby forum some time if you want to know what a moderator team that doesn't stick their head in the sand has done to address this issue. One example among many. Instead of essentially concern-trolling fraud victims, they chose to actually "analyze (exactly) what went wrong for future transactions." Your stance may have been appropriate a couple years ago when posters mostly knew each other before the # of users here took off as the hobby became more popular. Clearly you don't think this is going to be a growing problem here in the future and that my concerns are invalid, as is your right. My intention is simply to alert any users that read this about what can happen and what type of response you're likely to receive if you bring it up in the community. I would bet $ there are unethical people who will read this thread and feel very encouraged about the potential to ride their wheel till it breaks and then offload it here. Why wouldn't you? That's not a judgment of the moderators role or responsibility on the sales forum, but an observation of fact. And yeah, I agree with those that believe this discussion has run it's course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.