New wheel inbound, question about hills

[Mitch]

Hi all

So I have an MSX 100v inbound, currently floating in a Chinese shipping container in the middle of the ocean. This will be my first wheel and I’m curious about climbing and descending. I live in an area that is almost all hills, and some of them are VERY steep. I’m wondering what areas I need to avoid because the hill will blow a board either through peak current or overheat. Is there any way to do this other than monitoring the wheel temp and current draw with a smart watch as I go and slowly getting a feel for the wheels maximum? I’m assuming the MSX won’t protect itself via tilt back and warning beeps etc if I start climbing something too steep or long?

Also on descending; I assume this is the same, coming down a really steep street slowly will put a lot of strain on the motor. I’ve seen people struggle on YouTube with off-road descending, but that seems to be due to difficulties with the terrain. Anything to avoid road riding?

Note some of these streets are properly steep, as in a keen cyclist on a road bike in first gear often can’t get up them. 

Thanks for the advice! 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Mitch

[meepmeepmayer]

How steep?

The MSX has an amazing board and amazing high stress capabilities. It's extremely hard to fry it. See those two videos:

But it can be fried if you are unlucky, see this extremely rare case here:

 

 

The only real danger is having so high stress for a while that a wheel fries before it can overheat (which happens slower) which would stop you with just warning beeps. The standard @Marty Backe-tested advice is having a 90A current alarm (or 100A or maybe even bit more with this wheel) and if it doesn't just sound for a moment, but continuously, it means you should stop and not overstress it. May or may not happen on the hills you describe.

Braking isn't as bad as going up a hill because in the end, that's lower stress. It can heat up a wheel pretty heavily, but I'd strongly assume the normal overheating alarm would stop you because it doesn't heat up as crazy fast as necessary for frying a wheel up a hill. Can't hurt to keep an eye on the temps/amps and follow your common sense intuition though.

[Darrell Wesh]

Better buy some @EUC GUY powerpads to help you get up those hills. 

[meepmeepmayer]

5 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Better buy some @EUC GUY powerpads to help you get up those hills. 

While that's good advice, grabbing the wheel with the legs or using aids like the powerpads makes it easier to put exactly the crazy high stress on the wheel that makes it fry before overheating. If you just work via the pedals, your automatically limit yourself (if only because standing on the toes isn't too comfortable).

That's not an argument against the powerpads, just something to be aware of. You can quite effortlessly force enormous power out of a wheel if you force-tilt it by sitting or grabbing it with the legs or some other way, so it's easy to forget how much more stress one is putting on the wheel then.

[mrelwood]

My take as the one who toasted the MSX (link by meep in the second post):

I have acceleration pads that are perhaps 2-3 times as protruding as the EUC GUY’s powerpads. I also have huge pedal extensions that reach about two inches in front of the original pedals. I also have stiff soled shoes that help in putting my weight at the very front of the extensions. I usually weigh 92kg.

With that setup I reach 160A momentarily a few times whenever riding a regular trip of mine that has a few extremely steep hills.

Despite all of the above elements, it took me 6700km of riding my 84V MSX (and 12000km on other wheels) to build enough confidence to be able to get the MSX fried. And the mainboard only fried because the motor wires melted and shorted. They way I got the new better quality wires installed, I actually think that the melting point is now a good bit higher than even before.

Don’t worry about powerpads or pedal extensions! They have both been crucial for me every single time to be even able to enjoy my rides.

 

As the reported amperage and power values on GW wheels do not tell us the values we’d expect to see, I’m still not convinced that following them will get us very far in finding out the actual limits. Based on the values I reach, 90A seems like a very conservative value, leaving quite a bit of consideration in that how long and often it’s ok to be surpassed.

The #1 warning sign I currently use is the geiger-counter-like sparking that the wheel makes when stressed at slow speeds. This is only a wild guess, but as my limited understanding stands, the highest current peaks are reached when stressing the wheel next to zero speeds. And that’s when we hear the cogging sound. I’m hoping that pulling back whenever I hear that sound for longer than a second will keep my MSX toast free in the future.

When crawling up the hill that fried my MSX, the cogging sounds were stronger than I’ve ever heard them before, and they lasted continuously for about 30 seconds before the wires melted.

 

The motor wires on mine were very long (= added resistance = heat), and bent over in a tight bunch to run twice under a retainer (= added and concentrated heat). If you are worried that you’ll melt the motor wires, I would make sure that the wires are separated for as long as possible before going inside the axle.

Edited September 12, 2019 by mrelwood

[scotchtape]

MSX brakes like poop so watch out on those descents.  If it's smooth and clear it's fine, otherwise take it slow.

I have DIY pads front and rear and the ones I can't live without are the rear ones, not the front.  For forwards acceleration you can get away with squeezing the shell with your legs and bending your torso forwards (like downhill skiing or race bike style).  For braking I find it much more difficult as I can't get enough mass behind me for powerful braking without feeling the tips of my feet lift and feeling like I'm going to fall over backwards.  The rear pads really help!

If you are going into a huge downhill you can also do an asymetrical stance so you can put a bit more weight to the back.

Taking bumps on a steep downhill while braking and going fast is pretty scary and I avoid it by just going slow

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2019 by scotchtape

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, scotchtape said:

I have DIY pads front and rear and the ones I can't live with are the rear ones, not the front.

Yes, great point! (Based on the rest of your post you meant without. )

I use them too, but so far had seen zero interest towards them here at the forum.

A local rider built identical pads on his 18XL, and we learned that the optimal location for us is a lot more forward than I had mine positioned. Stand up straight on the EUC, and position the pads so that as soon as you start leaning back, the pads catch your legs. To brake you are forced to bend your knees as if you were sitting in a chair, which is the most powerful braking method already by itself.

On this photo they are still too far back:

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, scotchtape said:

MSX brakes like poop so watch out on those descents.  If it's smooth and clear it's fine, otherwise take it slow.

I have DIY pads front and rear and the ones I can't live with are the rear ones, not the front.  For forwards acceleration you can get away with squeezing the shell with your legs and bending your torso forwards (like downhill skiing or race bike style).  For braking I find it much more difficult as I can't get enough mass behind me for powerful braking without feeling the tips of my feet lift and feeling like I'm going to fall over backwards.  The rear pads really help!

If you are going into a huge downhill you can also do an asymetrical stance so you can put a bit more weight to the back.

Taking bumps on a steep downhill while braking and going fast is pretty scary and I avoid it by just going slow

Totally agree 

[Rywokast]

I very much doubt that unless you're extremely experienced no hill you yourself could make it up would be any issue whatsoever for the MSX lol.. just do yourself a favour and take it easy coming down since it's your first wheel haha

Edited September 12, 2019 by Rywokast

[scotchtape]

Yes, I meant live without

I took them off because I lost one side and those were a horrible few rides until I made another.

[Darrell Wesh]

1 hour ago, Rywokast said:

I very much doubt that unless you're extremely experienced no hill you yourself could make it up would be any issue whatsoever for the MSX lol.. just do yourself a favour and take it easy coming down since it's your first wheel haha

I will post a video of me sprinting up a steep hill and beating an MSX from standstill

[LanghamP]

You can forgo modified pads or needing to put a lot of pressure on smallish footpads by zig zaging up or down hills, as you've effectively reduced the sloop while increasing the distance. I find slaloming particularly effective for going downhill, because the wheel never feels like it's going to get away from you.

Even tiny bicycle paths, not much wider than yourself, can be weaved down, because the pivot point seems somewhere around the hips, and so there's a very satisfying pendelum effect going on.

[Rywokast]

2 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

I will post a video of me sprinting up a steep hill and beating an MSX from standstill

i mean you yourself as in him on the wheel.. as in, a new rider being able to stay on an MSX while going up a steep hill xD i have no doubts an in shape human could easily beat it unless he gunned it from a block away head start

[Mitch]

Good advice thanks everyone. This is a good example of a typical hill around my place. I live where the escarpment is really close to the sea, so all quite steep. 

Asquith St
Austinmer NSW 2515
https://goo.gl/maps/6d7cx81BjvAJiVTL7

what do you guys thing about the MSX riding up and down this?

(you can transport yourself down under by google street view)  

[Rywokast]

30 minutes ago, Mitch said:

Good advice thanks everyone. This is a good example of a typical hill around my place. I live where the escarpment is really close to the sea, so all quite steep. 

Asquith St
Austinmer NSW 2515
https://goo.gl/maps/6d7cx81BjvAJiVTL7

what do you guys thing about the MSX riding up and down this?

(you can transport yourself down under by google street view)  

cake walk

[Marty Backe]

11 minutes ago, Mitch said:

Good advice thanks everyone. This is a good example of a typical hill around my place. I live where the escarpment is really close to the sea, so all quite steep. 

Asquith St
Austinmer NSW 2515
https://goo.gl/maps/6d7cx81BjvAJiVTL7

what do you guys thing about the MSX riding up and down this?

(you can transport yourself down under by google street view)  

You mean the residential area, or climbing hills in the background?

Put it this way. The MSX will have no problem going anywhere a car can go.

[mrelwood]

 

6 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Put it this way. The MSX will have no problem going anywhere a car can go.

Exactly. My regular passanger car would even be left faaaar behind. An SUV might be a closer match.

[Mitch]

On 9/13/2019 at 8:50 AM, Marty Backe said:

You mean the residential area, or climbing hills in the background?

Put it this way. The MSX will have no problem going anywhere a car can go.

I meant just the streets around my neighborhood. I guess what sparked me wondering was watching the speedyfeet 1000 mile tour on Monsters. They were having to get off and push up hills quite a lot that look less steep than what is around my place. Is that just because of the wheel size of the monster where an MSX will do it comfortably?

[Marty Backe]

3 minutes ago, Mitch said:

I meant just the streets around my neighborhood. I guess what sparked me wondering was watching the speedyfeet 1000 mile tour on Monsters. They were having to get off and push up hills quite a lot that look less steep than what is around my place. Is that just because of the wheel size of the monster where an MSX will do it comfortably?

They were riding the first generation 84-volt Monster (2-1/2 years old). You are riding a 2019 100-volt powerhouse of a wheel. On top of that, the MSX tire is much smaller than the Monster. Smaller diameter tires means more torque.

You've got nothing to worry about.

[meepmeepmayer]

The first generation Monsters they rode on the 1000 miler had weak mosfet boards and thin motor cabling and could reproducibly be fried by going up long continuous and very steep inclines. The new wheels (including all the Monsters now) are an order of magnitude better. You can only fry them if you really really try (e.g. the car push thing).

Those "steep" hills you show are a piece of cake for current wheels Check out Marty's overheat hill video of the MSX (and see how steep his hill really is):

Edited September 14, 2019 by meepmeepmayer

[Mitch]

Yeah and hills usually look less steep on video.. 

@Marty Backe did you ride back down overheat hill on the MSX or would the braking be to sketchy as you mentioned above?

All I can say is that i had assumed the hills around me might be too much, but if I am wrong (sounds like I am) then I am going to have a lot of fun when it arrives .

I've invested in a LOT of safety gear too so I should be ok to go for some hills. 

 

[Marty Backe]

3 hours ago, Mitch said:

Yeah and hills usually look less steep on video.. 

@Marty Backe did you ride back down overheat hill on the MSX or would the braking be to sketchy as you mentioned above?

All I can say is that i had assumed the hills around me might be too much, but if I am wrong (sounds like I am) then I am going to have a lot of fun when it arrives .

I've invested in a LOT of safety gear too so I should be ok to go for some hills. 

 

No, I don't ride the wheels down overheat hill. Riding down steep hills is not my favorite thing to due 

Edited September 14, 2019 by Marty Backe

[Darrell Wesh]

18 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

No, I don't ride the wheels down overheat hill. Riding down steep hills is my favorite thing to due 

But you could definitely hit 50mph on the Nikola 100v going down overheat hill!!! Do it for science Marty 

[Marty Backe]

58 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

But you could definitely hit 50mph on the Nikola 100v going down overheat hill!!! Do it for science Marty 

  Ain't going to happen

[Mitch]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

  Ain't going to happen

Would you go down a gradient that steep if it was tarmac? Out of curiosity