Survey on Personal Electric Vehicles

[LanghamP]

2 hours ago, ir_fuel said:

I think EUC's don't belong on sidewalks. They go as least as fast as a bicycle, so they should be follow the same rules as bicycles and use the same part of the road. 15mph is already very fast when there are pedestrians you need to avoid.

I don't go anywhere near the speed of bikes except when going uphill but I do often go as slow as a person strolling, and don't bother weaving around pedestrians if they take up the whole sidewalk. 

On the other hand I prefer little wheels and keep one in the car, and so I treat wheels more as mobility devices. I do know my MSuper is quite inappropriate on the sidewalk with the tremendous speed it generates. 

[Xoltri]

Unlike a bike it is no effort on the wheel to slow right down, pass the pedestrian, then accelerate again.  I ride a lot of shared use paths (meant for pedestrians and cyclists) on both my wheel and bike and this is common - even with a bell often pedestrians are wearing headphones.  It's more annoying on a bicycle by far.

[HermanTheGerman]

On 9/7/2017 at 3:51 PM, ir_fuel said:

I think EUC's don't belong on sidewalks. They go as least as fast as a bicycle, so they should be follow the same rules as bicycles and use the same part of the road. 15mph is already very fast when there are pedestrians you need to avoid.

This is a difficult discussion.

Basically I agree with you, on the other hand I also understand the people who say, a bicycle is more bulky and difficult to handle on a sidewalk like an EUC.

I believe, it mainly depends on the attitude of the rider, to act passively, carefully and drive slowly on sidewalks, but you can be sure, that there will be seen also different attitudes.

Therefore at the end, when a law regulates this, I'm quite sure they will ban EUCs from sidewalks and pedestrian precincts, and for me it is o.k.  (as the words "walk" and "pedestrian" already clearly articulate, for which type of transportation this is meant).

Maybe that devices like the Ninebot MiniPro are allowed, if they are technically limited to 5 or 6 mph.

[ir_fuel]

11 minutes ago, HermanTheGerman said:

This is a difficult discussion.

Basically I agree with you, on the other hand I also understand the people who say, a bicycle is more bulky and difficult to handle on a sidewalk like an EUC.

Agreed, but what makes traffic dangerous is speed differences. I don't know about you but when I cruise with my euc I am doing approx 28 km/h. No way of doing that in a safe way on the sidewalk. And going long distances at 15km/h (which still is 3 times as fast as a pedestrian) drives me crazy.

11 minutes ago, HermanTheGerman said:

Therefore at the end, when a law regulates this, I'm quite sure they will ban EUCs from sidewalks and pedestrian precincts, and for me it is o.k.  (as the words "walk" and "pedestrian" already clearly articulate, for which type of transportation this is meant).

Belgian law already does. Where you ride it depends on your speed. If you ride on the sidewalk you should stick to normal speeds on a sidewalk (walking pace). That's also why children's bicycles are allowed on there. Once you go faster you must ride where the cyclists are.

[caelus]

11 minutes ago, HermanTheGerman said:

Therefore at the end, when a law regulates this, I'm quite sure they will ban EUCs from sidewalks and pedestrian precincts...

The first two countries that did include PLEVs in their national laws (Belgium and Finland) according to the EU regulation, do allow certain EUCs on sidewalks. See here and here.

"In Belgian law, any motorized vehicle of 1 wheel or more (was previously 2 wheels or more) would be considered a walker if not exceeding walking speed, and bicycle otherwise"

"Lightweight devices that travel at a maximum speed of 15 km/h would be comparable to kickboards and roller skates, i.e. pedestrian traffic regulations would apply. The use of devices that assist or replace walking has thus far only been permitted for the disabled. This restriction would be eliminated."

Also in France they are officially tolerated on sidewalks (afaik, no explicit regulation yet).

[HermanTheGerman]

19 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

Belgian law already does. Where you ride it depends on your speed. If you ride on the sidewalk you should stick to normal speeds on a sidewalk (walking pace). That's also why children's bicycles are allowed on there. Once you go faster you must ride where the cyclists are.

 

9 minutes ago, caelus said:

The first two countries that did include PLEVs in their national laws (Belgium and Finland) according to the EU regulation, do allow certain EUCs on sidewalks. See here and here.

"In Belgian law, any motorized vehicle of 1 wheel or more (was previously 2 wheels or more) would be considered a walker if not exceeding walking speed, and bicycle otherwise"

"Lightweight devices that travel at a maximum speed of 15 km/h would be comparable to kickboards and roller skates, i.e. pedestrian traffic regulations would apply. The use of devices that assist or replace walking has thus far only been permitted for the disabled. This restriction would be eliminated."
 

Though this seems to be a good solution, it relies, as I mentioned, on the attitude and cautiousness of the rider.

It doesn't help if it is legal, if you pass a door with 15 km/h where suddenly Grandma or a child jumps out.

Are we all grown up enough for that ?  With all I really mean ALL.

When I drive on the highway with my car, or on a mountain street, I doubt, and I'm not a slow driver.

[ir_fuel]

Soon we'll have speed traps on sidewalks for EUC's  

[Scatcat]

Going on the sidewalk, which I do from time to time when needed, is a matter of going at walking speed. If I have to use the sidewalk, I wouldn't dream of going at high speed.

[Demargon]

On 11/9/2017 at 9:59 AM, Asylsteirer said:

...

It doesn't help if it is legal, if you pass a door with 15 km/h where suddenly Grandma or a child jumps out.

...

The traffic regulations I know (Spanish) don't allow you to going fast if you can't react whatever comes from blind spots. That means if you are reach a corner or a door fast enough for not being capable of stop immediately you can get a penalty. 

In Madrid the bikers aren't allowed to ride in the sidewalk but we get a penalty only for speeding or aggressive riding.

I really pleased showing the politeness can be one driver become in a euc rider: no need of overtake if there are any risk, speeding only for leave the path free for other users, always watching for eye contact, used a lot of body language for communicating my turns, braking and intersections pass. 

One of my projects are teaching others to ride safe his euc. If anybody wants to do a euc law regulation sketch I be pleased to contribute and learn

[IPS Malta]

On 9/11/2017 at 9:59 AM, Asylsteirer said:

It doesn't help if it is legal, if you pass a door with 15 km/h where suddenly Grandma or a child jumps out.

1

When riding on a sidewalk I adjust the speed depending on which side of the sidewalk I am. As @Demargon said, the closer and the more blind spots there are, the less the speed we should be riding at and being prepared to stop at any time. It should all boil down to the individual to keep it safe for the people around him. Even if there will be a specified set of rules, anyone can be breaking them. Most of us who drive broke some speeding law at least, but surely they were not breaking it in dangerous areas.

[tim716]

Actually everything has been "invented" already. In all practical matters an EUC is equal to a bicycle, and should be treated according to each nation's laws (and traditions) for bicycles. In the countries which took this approach EUCs are doing just fine, the problems are in the countries that try to "invent" something special for EUCs, almost always effectively resulting in a ban.

As for safety standards, I think PLEV is a great idea, and I'd love to ride a EUC which is fully compliant to these rules. BUT! Such standards should be applied GRADUALLY, in alignment with the development of the technology. Otherwise we get what we get - the effective usage ban and blasting the market and production.

It's like with aircraft noise problem. Their noise creates lots of inconveniences and conflicts, and the best solution would be to have only completely silent aircraft flying. But -  imagine EASA introduce the new rule today, that only aircraft with 0 (ZERO) Db noise level are allowed to be sold and operated in Europe. All the rest are banned. Will we get a noiseless aircraft as a result? NOPE. We'll get NO AIRCRAFT AT ALL. What we'll get is complete devastation of all aviation industry. And we'll never see a noiseless aircraft. We'll just never fly.

That's why aviation authorites don't do anything like that, but just gradually stricten the noise requirements, based on the principle "today's best achievements are tomorrow's standards".

Same with EUCs. I want a fully redundant and absolutely safe wheel, but if it's made a law requirement - I'll have neither this wheel, nor any other. What should be done - the law standards for the quality, redundancy and safety for the wheel should be GRADUALLY increased based on the specs of the best models on the market. And in the beginning they should be quite low. The wheel failure on the go poses danger mostly to the rider himself, so as a temporary solution the increased protection requirements (say, mandatory full inline skater protection plus helmet) might be introduced.

[Demargon]

I'm not sure of is all invented. The next step for autobalance vehicles maybe can be shoes with one wheel, better if is attached at one exoskeleton.  

Euc can't be the same as bikes. The size are 3 or 4 times smaller, when you seek for space in a populated track that is crucial. They are more like a rollerblades what isn't need to be attached to your body.

Actually I'm writing a sketch of rules for electric personal vehicles. The sidewalk is allowed to all if allow the pass of two vehicles simultaneously, limited to 10km/h and mandatory to let priority to pedestrians, slowing down and dismounting if is necessary.

I'm more of teaching than overprotect. If anyone need to wear padding and helmet maybe he isn't trained enough to ride in public spaces. Those wear are good for offroad but needles for street riding. In my personal experience a well constructed euc is enough safe if you don't push it to the limit, is matter of know where they are.

[LanghamP]

4 hours ago, Demargon said:

 

I'm more of teaching than overprotect. If anyone need to wear padding and helmet maybe he isn't trained enough to ride in public spaces.

I'd highly recommend wearing a casual helmet at least regardless of speed as it takes a long time to get enough training in an EUC. EUC's are always trying to kill me, not like a bicycle at all, and I've had a few zero speed accidents whereby the wheel fell off a tiny lip or crack on the pavement, and it was like being on a banana peel where the wheel essentially disappeared on me.

Unless you have complete confidence of your always-on Ninja skill, just wear a casual skate helmet that takes like 2 seconds to put on. 

[Mono]

4 hours ago, Demargon said:

I'm not sure of is all invented.

I am sure of not all is invented 

4 hours ago, Demargon said:

Euc can't be the same as bikes. The size are 3 or 4 times smaller, when you seek for space in a populated track that is crucial. They are more like a rollerblades what isn't need to be attached to your body.

That's indeed a way I am thinking of them as well, with the additional benefit of a larger wheel diameter and no need for a wide space to be able to accelerate. Nevertheless, making parallels with bicycles seems justified as well.

4 hours ago, Demargon said:

Actually I'm writing a sketch of rules for electric personal vehicles. The sidewalk is allowed to all if allow the pass of two vehicles simultaneously, limited to 10km/h and mandatory to let priority to pedestrians, slowing down and dismounting if is necessary.

Sounds pretty good to me. I didn't think of the two-vehicles-passing criterion, it's a nice idea.

4 hours ago, Demargon said:

I'm more of teaching than overprotect. If anyone need to wear padding and helmet maybe he isn't trained enough to ride in public spaces.

I additionally don't like the idea of helmeted riders on the sidewalk. They have nicely covered themselves when crashing into a pedestrian, just tough luck for those they crash into.

[LanghamP]

10 minutes ago, Mono said:

I am sure of not all is invented 

That's indeed a way I am thinking of them as well, with the additional benefit of a larger wheel diameter and no need for a wide space to be able to accelerate. Nevertheless, making parallels with bicycles seems justified as well.

Sounds pretty good to me. I didn't think of the two-vehicles-passing criterion, it's a nice idea.

I additionally don't like the idea of helmeted riders on the sidewalk. They have nicely covered themselves when crashing into a pedestrian, just tough luck for those they crash into.

100% of pedestrians now walk while looking down at their smartphones. Therefore not wearing a helmet shows due consideration towards a group of people who show no such reciprocity.   

[Mono]

On 10/3/2017 at 9:33 PM, LanghamP said:

100% of pedestrians now walk while looking down at their smartphones.

I don't see a real problem with that, as I have no problem with blind people walking. Nobody gets (seriously) hurt, or if so with a negligible probability only. That seems perfectly due consideration to others. It may hurt your feelings to not be recognized, but that's a different story altogether...

[Demargon]

I respect the effort of pedestrians for take a walk, sometimes long and tedious. In opposite I'm enjoying my ride and take no effort to me slowing down or stop for letting others pass.

[Scatcat]

16 hours ago, Demargon said:

I'm more of teaching than overprotect. If anyone need to wear padding and helmet maybe he isn't trained enough to ride in public spaces. Those wear are good for offroad but needles for street riding. In my personal experience a well constructed euc is enough safe if you don't push it to the limit, is matter of know where they are.

Well, look at the situation here two days ago. There was a real downpour and enough water in the streets afterwards to pool wherever the run-offs weren't perfect. I narrowly avoided hitting a curb sideways on the bicycle road under about five inches of water. BTW almost exactly the same situation that made me fall a few weeks ago. In this case I would probably have fallen and trashed my EUC at the same time, given the size and depth of the puddle. Electronics + water ≠ fun.

Luckily I had my gore-tex hiking shoes on, and had already slowed down, so stepping off in the puddle left my feet dry and me in control of the situation.

But that is the real killer. It's not the push to the bleeding edge, because that can be avoided. It's the situations where you think you're in control, when in reality you're not. Your skill and training may be enough to keep you up on your EUC by itself, but all it takes is an idiot behind the wheel of a car, behind the handlebars of a bicycle or sudden turn of a smartphone gazing pedestrian, and all that skill comes to nothing. The hidden pot-hole that a hawk can't see, the crack in the road that is just half an inch wider than it looks, the curb hidden in a puddle - all that won't go away just because you're good.

You can probably go years without incident, then one fine day you tumble head over heels without warning. If you're lucky and your "spider senses" are active, you may be able to roll out of it without injury, padding or not. But even though I used to go on skateboard, ice-skate, ski on the horizontal and vertical, and go miles on a bike without touching the handle bar, my "spider senses" didn't save me from falling. I would have walked out of it without broken bones - probably - but with protection the extent of injury was mostly my pride, and that ain't worth saving anyways...  

Or to put it plainly:

Today I turn 51, I want to turn 52 in a year, and I wan't to do it with my body fully working.

[Mono]

It is always worth to remember that the most important safety gear is between your ears and not on top of your head, even at your age. You don't need to see something to be able to predict that it could be there or that it can happen and act accordingly. That is certainly true for "suddenly turning" pedestrians or hidden potholes. It is even to a large extend true for handling idiots behind steering wheels. The most important skills to prevent accidents are not riding skills. These are probably the least important ones. As has been said before, increased riding skills often lead to overconfidence and complacency.

I recently bumped into a bicycle when I started to go backwards being bored while waiting for a green light. Nobody got hurt, but that wouldn't have happened if I wouldn't be able to go confidently backwards.

[Scatcat]

2 hours ago, Mono said:

It is always worth to remember that the most important safety gear is between your ears and not on top of your head, even at your age. You don't need to see something to be able to predict that it could be there or that it can happen and act accordingly. That is certainly true for "suddenly turning" pedestrians or hidden potholes. It is even to a large extend true for handling idiots behind steering wheels. The most important skills to prevent accidents are not riding skills. These are probably the least important ones. As has been said before, increased riding skills lead to overconfidence and complacency.

I recently bumped into a bicycle when I started to go backwards being bored while waiting for a green light. Nobody got hurt, but that wouldn't have happened if I wouldn't be able to go confidently backwards.

Yeah, I hear you.

The brain is the best safety gear, that is so bloody true. The helmet, the padding, the back insert... all those are for when the brain was not enough.

[LanghamP]

The biggest danger to you as either a pedestrian or bicyclist is a car that doesn't really want to share the road with you. Even if you cross the street walking on a crosswalk light you are likely to eventually get hit because road engineers have specifically designed most roads to facilitate the fast flow of cars through intersections.

Now in my city it's important to note that while hitting and killing people crossing the street in your car is illegal, there is no punishment, that is, no charges are filled. Basically that means except for the inconvenience of repairing your car, there isn't a penalty to killing non-car people, at least in my city.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/traffic/along-for-the-ride/rising-number-of-pedestrian-deaths-has-st-louis-officials-concerned/article_3247371b-202d-5310-b6ee-3f0991732822.html

Policy wise, the push is to put everyone in cars and discourage bicycles and pedestrians. Look at what people do and not what they say.

[Scatcat]

18 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

The biggest danger to you as either a pedestrian or bicyclist is a car that doesn't really want to share the road with you. Even if you cross the street walking on a crosswalk light you are likely to eventually get hit because road engineers have specifically designed most roads to facilitate the fast flow of cars through intersections.

Now in my city it's important to note that while hitting and killing people crossing the street in your car is illegal, there is no punishment, that is, no charges are filled. Basically that means except for the inconvenience of repairing your car, there isn't a penalty to killing non-car people, at least in my city.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/traffic/along-for-the-ride/rising-number-of-pedestrian-deaths-has-st-louis-officials-concerned/article_3247371b-202d-5310-b6ee-3f0991732822.html

Policy wise, the push is to put everyone in cars and discourage bicycles and pedestrians. Look at what people do and not what they say.

You should have the same laws as here in Sweden. Here pedestrians have the right of way at all marked crossings, lights or not. Not giving right of way at a crossing is a finable offence, even if there's no accident - and people get fined for it if there's a cop around.

It took about a decade after the law was changed before you started to see real change in the majority of drivers. You can still not "trust" a driver to act within the law, but most drivers slow down before crossings as a matter of course. The number of accidents with pedestrians hit took a real dive. The seriousness of accidents went down too, as even the idiots that shouldn't have a drivers licence tend to follow the rhythm of the traffic and slow down.

Hitting a pedestrian at a crossing is always the drivers fault, by default. You have an uphill battle proving you did all that could be expected to avoid the accident, since you're obligated to stop for pedestrians - but just 100% of the time.

If you cause an accident, you're in breach of "driving dangerously". It probably will cost you your licence for a year or so, cost a lot of money in fines, and if really bad lead to you shaking bars for a while.

[steve454]

We had driver's education warning us of worst case scenarios.  Child chasing a ball in to the street, leaking exhaust fumes making you pass out and hit a truck, teenagers playing chicken and head on collision, driving simulators that didn't react like real cars.  The point is, watch out for others, the thought of hurting someone else would be a tough thing to carry.

I would rather accidentally crash and kill myself, than hurt some idiot that jumped in front of me.

Driver education is optional and costs extra money, pedestrian education is free and starts with look both ways before crossing!

[Kudays]

Done! Hi to Geneva and Montreux. I will be back to ride my EUC on the streets of CERN someday.

[Demargon]

Hi @steve454, I had the same concerned about crashing someone when I ride my rollers since one day happened, a kid suddenly appears from a low visibility corner. I rise up the kid with my hands before stop together, that solve the situation because nobody get hurt and I learned one precious trick to save accidents: use yours hands 

That only works if you aren't speeding ?